Qatar: Talks with Pakistan over Mirage 2000-5s

[wiseone2]

Some dream expectations by tge senior members 5 years back regarding jf-17 development and need of mirage for PAF. Compare current situation of jf-17 and viavility of its getting it's teeth in time or should it prudent to induct some mirage as stop gap if f-16 is not available due to US reluctance.

IAF was offered in 2003. they decided to pass because their price was too high
http://aviationweek.com/awin/qatar-offers-india-12-mirage-fighters

 

[ZedZeeshan]

Newer aircraft acquisitions dont work this quickly. It will take a lot of time before this happens if it happens at all.
A

well

IAF was offered in 2003. they decided to pass because their price was too high
http://aviationweek.com/awin/qatar-offers-india-12-mirage-fighters

http://aviationweek.com/awin/india-seeking-qatars-mirages-keep-them-pakistan

 

[A2Z]

When in past PAF had rejected Mirage 2000 then why do they want it now? I have nothing against Mirage 2000 it is a very potent platform that has proved its worth, but for PAF, Mirage 2000’s ship has sailed. Still if they want it so desperately they must get UAE’s Mirages as well or the numbers would be too less to make any difference but waste of money that could be invested in some other area. And as far as I know UAE’s Mirages would end up with Egypt and PAF has very slim chance there.

I am no expert but even I have noticed that every now and then PAF shows that they always take corrective actions rather than preventive.

They should have never restricted Ra’ad to just Mirage but must have planned thunder in a way that Ra’ad could be carried on central hardpoint.

Since the beginning PAF knew that sooner or later they’ll need to replace Mirage III/V and F-7 but they never planned how they would avoid an urgency in this regard. The correct approach would have been that since the beginning they should have produced JF-17 in large numbers and should have developed block 2 much earlier. By now we should have entered Block 3 production phase which means we would have had approx. 150 thunders. Moreover when PAF had seen that due to funds shortage the order of F16 was reduced they should immediately have looked for second hand F-16 rather than wasting time with J-10 deal which never materialized. By now instead of just 13 ex-Jordanian F-16 we should have bought at least 40 used F-16.

We lack a credible air defence system and high time that we take some preventive action against this matter rather than taking a corrective action 5 years later. Similar is the case with 5th generation platform if PAF does not plan it at this moment they’ll once again find themselves in a situation when they’ll go for 4.5th gen aircraft rather than 5th

 

[Super Falcon]

Sir,

It is public news---. I am not being rude---you need to use your brains when reading and replying---. I stated that the Paf donated those funds in earthquake relief---. The air marshall is on record to make these statements---.

I mean to say---there is a limit to the level of idiocy---you talk about professional discussions on a military related forum---but cannot grasp simple information.

Bro people here give idiot justification

How in world allocated funds can be used on other things

Than why not municipality of provinces used their funds for earthquake reliefs and others why PAF be escape goat for funds

Canceling F 16 Deal was to buy J 10 but PAF simply miss used those funds

Egyptian airforce look at them
F 16
Mirages
MIG 35
Rafale

These people are sensible buying weapons

Don't tell me that whole middle East paid for all these toys not more than RAFALE bought by middle East countries to them

Above it Egypt is not very rich either their economy at par with us not big difference yet they create difference

Out of all these Egyptian jet half bought by Egypt economy I salute their choices and what we end up 60 F 16 80 JF 17

nothing more mirages only used for sea or naval purpose

PAF and it's think tank living in fantasy world busy in opening and running PAF school busy in building homes etc not doing required job for what they have been funded for

At top of it they cry for money and when money comes they miss use it on in needed toys

If PAF thinking any single engine jet even in numbers it make no sense than it means JF 17 has no use

Remember PAF lie

JF 17 programme has to be launched to fulfill PAF needs of Multirole jet when the requirements of Multirole has been fulfilled by JF 17 what is the use of similar type of 3 Multirole type jet

Mirage at best do bombing missions which JF 17 Can in dog fights neither it has any maneuverability nor any range against 4.5 generation jet like SU 30 it is sitting duck

Either way only PN has its role for launching air strikes against IN aircraft carriers or keep Pakistani sea shores in check

When in past PAF had rejected Mirage 2000 then why do they want it now? I have nothing against Mirage 2000 it is a very potent platform that has proved its worth, but for PAF, Mirage 2000’s ship has sailed. Still if they want it so desperately they must get UAE’s Mirages as well or the numbers would be too less to make any difference but waste of money that could be invested in some other area. And as far as I know UAE’s Mirages would end up with Egypt and PAF has very slim chance there.

I am no expert but even I have noticed that every now and then PAF shows that they always take corrective actions rather than preventive.

They should have never restricted Ra’ad to just Mirage but must have planned thunder in a way that Ra’ad could be carried on central hardpoint.

Since the beginning PAF knew that sooner or later they’ll need to replace Mirage III/V and F-7 but they never planned how they would avoid an urgency in this regard. The correct approach would have been that since the beginning they should have produced JF-17 in large numbers and should have developed block 2 much earlier. By now we should have entered Block 3 production phase which means we would have had approx. 150 thunders. Moreover when PAF had seen that due to funds shortage the order of F16 was reduced they should immediately have looked for second hand F-16 rather than wasting time with J-10 deal which never materialized. By now instead of just 13 ex-Jordanian F-16 we should have bought at least 40 used F-16.

We lack a credible air defence system and high time that we take some preventive action against this matter rather than taking a corrective action 5 years later. Similar is the case with 5th generation platform if PAF does not plan it at this moment they’ll once again find themselves in a situation when they’ll go for 4.5th gen aircraft rather than 5th

J 10 was materialized deal but stupid PAF thinkers rejected them neither getting F 16 which was coming in numbers nor J 10

PAF is a force renowned for doing blunders

Not acquired BVR in kargil blunder
Atlantique shoot down not giving it cover
USNS stormed at abbotabad With helos did nothing

When you become airchief you take oath to serve the nation best of his capabilities fight against state enemies untill last blood in veins

Either serve the oath or your puppets

PAF is only force I don't have any faith it will save us when other airforce even in limited budget than PAF buying two engine jet than I'm sorry

And for me price don't matters if something can win me a war on my enemy

As one member suggested
Do PAF any employee let their family die over not having money.

money is not an issue issue is PAF is in mental block of F 16 and single minded thinking

If SU 35 can save my land my mother I don't consider money a issue

PAF has to ask govt of Pakistan and call a immediate meeting of three armed forces

Let them know these points

1 PAF is in very bad shape in numbers and technology against its aggressor
2 PAF lacks dedicated Airsuperiority fighter jet to secure Pakistani borders
3 PAF duty is not only to secure Pakistani air space but at the same time it has to give cover to naval and army bases against Indian bombings and strike

So PAF lacks around 50 airsuperiority jets and 30 F 16 used

So PAF needs initial amount of 5 billion dollars in yearly bases

Now important game
Government of Pakistan must engage with Russia
Ask Russia for 50 new SU 35 Payment would be made in 3 half's in yearly bases

15 jets a year Russia supplies to Pakistan so it won't be burden of taking 5 billion at once rather than in quarters

Why Russia sell us

If Russia sell Egypt a US ally top notch MIG 35 Why not Pakistan SU 35

give Russia irresistible offer ask them to have a small island near KHI they take it on lease for their needs of hot water fulfill

Remember Russia is going to expand its naval forces in coming years so it needs bases for its ships and Karachi suits them

Doing this bring US in pressure so they have to make good relations with Pakistan other wise they not only loose South China Sea to China but in future if Russia expanded its forces to Arabian Sea USA will be at brink of self destructive mode

So it's upon us how we play diplomatic roles with to win goals of our interests

 

[Super Falcon]

I have seen that mostly on iaf side not the other way

IAF buying atleast something which give them upper hand in war

In Iraqi war in 91 desert storm it was mixture of F 16 And F 15 who won war along with Multirole fighter just you must have airsuperiority fighter who not only make interception to enemy but clear skies from enemies to make a bit life easy for Multirole jet so it can carry land based attacks more easily and defend itself if needed

Airsuperiority jet is most important as per without it enemy forces are in forgiving if you leave slight hole of weakness in your force they will exploitation with war

Small mistakes can bring you brink of loosing a war

Pakistan has to learn from PAF negligence in kargil war BVR end us loosing brave soldiers

Are those BVR more expensive than our brave soldiers of army on land defending itself that PAF cover them but mirages 2000 bomb them to miserbale death no mercy in war if you leave big holes of weakness open for enemy to cash in

PAF employee thinkers are junk even sindh police hawaldar is better planner

 

[Hell hound]

how do you guys think we are churning out 16 fighters a years paf has used that f 16 funds(what ever remains after donation) for jf 17. lets no forget jf 17 also costs money and has flyaway cost of about 30 million .we have 2 billon worth of jf 17 right here in our inventory and we are also putting atleast 480 millions a year in this program. this calculation is only based on flyaway cost and we know a fighter cost lot more then its fly away cost specially the new type
cost of new fighter includes
1)flyaway cost
2)infrastructure cost
3)new weapons procurement and integration cost
4)training cost
and i will put my faith in number rather then quality unless india gets his hands on fifth gen.even then you need forth gen fighter for CAS, CAP (in some case) interception and anti terror roles because you cant use fifth gen high maintenance and operating cost fighters with low weapon loads for these roles.
money don't grow on trees for paf and its either jf 17 in numbers or a new jet with limited capabilities(look at f 16 we have harpoon anti ship weapon in our inventory but we can't use them neither we have an anti radiation missile for it even though it is a multi role fighter but this effectively make f 16 just an air superiority and ground attack fighter for us).
so let paf hit magic number of 150 first and then we can talk about getting a new fighter
@MastanKhan @Super Falcon

 

[The SC]

But the American pilots insisted their planes had gone undefeated against the French during the November exercise — that, in fact, the F-22s had “shot down” Rafales in six one-on-one engagements. Five other simulated battles ended in draws, the Americans said. The U.S. pilots copped to just one loss in the war game — an F-22 defeated by a Mirage 2000 flown by an Emirati aviator.

But a video posted by a French Website on June 18 proves that the Americans were lying — or at least incorrect. The video from the Rafale’s camera clearly shows the French plane maneuvering into a good position to launch an infrared-guided Mica missile against a defending F-22.

https://warisboring.com/the-french-shot-down-u-s-stealth-fighter-f59db16282ca#.1omc08q10

 

[MastanKhan]

Em asking you. Since you brought this up and your statements doesnt make any sense

1 if paf had billions they only invested just few millions in thunder where is the rest of amount

Now how much of the amount was donated
And since you brought up that that those funds where miss used by gov or relic workers than how can you blame paf

And if paf didnt donate all of its money and invested partial amount of money in thunder program where is the rest of it
Please enlighten me with all knowing source of yours

Today at 4:26 AM#281

 

[Gryphon]

PAF has to replace 2 squadrons of F-7P followed by 4 squadrons of Mirage III/5. Then, 3 F-7PG squadrons will need to be replaced probably after 2020. Three squadrons of Mirage III/5 ROSE will stay in service longer as the ROSE aircraft have been upgraded with new weapons like MAA-1A Piranha WVR AAM, Mectrom MAR-1 ARM and are also assigned the nuclear-strike role (along with F-16s).

So, PAF has 9 squadrons to replace (See Janes for more). The 150 JF-17s PAF is to acquire will re-equip roughly 8 squadrons (four squadrons are already operational). One new JF-17 Block squadron will replace one F-7P and used F-16s (probably from Jordan) will replace another.

Three more JF-17 squadrons will enter service replacing three Mirage III/5 squadrons. This leaves one Mirage III/5 and three F-7PG squadrons.

Since PAF lacks a heavy-payload, twin-engine, long range fighter (like Sukhoi Su-35), it is interested to procure the aircraft. But, Pakistan probably will not have money to buy more than 40 jets (a squadron of 18 Sukhoi Su-35 costs nearly $1.5 billion US and PAF was reportedly negotiating in March for an initial batch of 6 Sukhoi's worth $500 milllion US). Even after inducting Sukhoi Su-35, PAF will still be left with 2 (or 3) F-7PGs units to replace. This is where PAF has to look for relatively cheap, second-hand replacements and is doing exactly same.

Second hand Mirage 2000s are suited for this requirement. PAF can acquire 12 used Mirage 2000-5s from Qatar (which is replacing them with Rafale) and a number of Mirages 2000-9s from UAE (roughly 61 in total; to be replaced by 4.5 gen fighters). These aircraft could be upgraded to increase service life (as done by Peru) and can also serve as excellent ground attack & nuclear-strike capable aircraft when Mirage ROSE aircraft retire around 2030 and possibly fifth gen aircraft enter service.

But getting spares for these Mirages appear to be quite difficult (as seen with Brazil) and there are also high maintenance costs.

 

[A2Z]

If Russia sell Egypt a US ally top notch MIG 35 Why not Pakistan SU 35

give Russia irresistible offer ask them to have a small island near KHI they take it on lease for their needs of hot water fulfill

Remember Russia is going to expand its naval forces in coming years so it needs bases for its ships and Karachi suits them

Doing this bring US in pressure so they have to make good relations with Pakistan other wise they not only loose South China Sea to China but in future if Russia expanded its forces to Arabian Sea USA will be at brink of self destructive mode

First of all its not USA that can hinder the Su-35 deal its our neighbors. They are involved with Ruskies in at least a dozen defence deals that costs in billions $$$ and PAF or Pakistan in general can hardly purchase weapons worth a billion $$$. So that there can be the one and only hurdle, that too IF Russians are ready to sell it to us.

Secondly your advise of offering Russians an island near Karachi is neither possible nor a wise thing to do. Pak-Russian relations are still not deep enough. Just imagine in case of an Indo-Pak conflict Russia decides to back India and uses that island to launch attack on Pakistan or decides to give IN its access that would mean Karachi would be wiped from the world map in matter of days if not hours.

Lastly yes Indo-US relations and the leverages US is trying to give Indians are worrying but that doesn't mean we should take a stupid step. We must use diplomacy to tackle this issue. As far as South China Sea is concerned US still has the upper hand in the matters. Despite all the Chinese and Russian Naval advancements USN is still the biggest fish in the pond or the crocodile if I am not wrong.

 

[Centurion2016]

UPGRADED INDIAN MIRAGE2000

IT LOOKS A BEAUTY

 

[DJ_Viper]

If they would have bpought the 72 F16's---the project for the JF17 would have been bundled out. The statements about donating the money for the aircraft are in the public domain.

I copy that. We've known the internals on this for almost two decades now. The Pakistani military has a huge issue with planning and strategic acquisitions. IMO, looking at the Navy and the AF and associated screw ups, they have, at the least wasted five chances of modernizing their fleet. They don't have forward looking view, but they talk about it. When things get difficult, they then blame America for it!!

When will the nation of Pakistan realize some serious short comings of their generals actions? You are a growing country and you can't close your eyes when its the military screwing shi**t up, things that otherwise would be cheaper and would make the country stronger.

I write this having built respect or the Pakistani military in how they are dealing with terrorism across three fronts. But the truth should also be said about the things not working properly.

 

[Super Falcon]

how do you guys think we are churning out 16 fighters a years paf has used that f 16 funds(what ever remains after donation) for jf 17. lets no forget jf 17 also costs money and has flyaway cost of about 30 million .we have 2 billon worth of jf 17 right here in our inventory and we are also putting atleast 480 millions a year in this program. this calculation is only based on flyaway cost and we know a fighter cost lot more then its fly away cost specially the new type
cost of new fighter includes
1)flyaway cost
2)infrastructure cost
3)new weapons procurement and integration cost
4)training cost
and i will put my faith in number rather then quality unless india gets his hands on fifth gen.even then you need forth gen fighter for CAS, CAP (in some case) interception and anti terror roles because you cant use fifth gen high maintenance and operating cost fighters with low weapon loads for these roles.
money don't grow on trees for paf and its either jf 17 in numbers or a new jet with limited capabilities(look at f 16 we have harpoon anti ship weapon in our inventory but we can't use them neither we have an anti radiation missile for it even though it is a multi role fighter but this effectively make f 16 just an air superiority and ground attack fighter for us).
so let paf hit magic number of 150 first and then we can talk about getting a new fighter
@MastanKhan @Super Falcon

Again you are acting like salesmanwhen you defend your country u dont consider any price remember or either don't buy anything if you are curious of Price's

First of all its not USA that can hinder the Su-35 deal its our neighbors. They are involved with Ruskies in at least a dozen defence deals that costs in billions $$$ and PAF or Pakistan in general can hardly purchase weapons worth a billion $$$. So that there can be the one and only hurdle, that too IF Russians are ready to sell it to us.

Secondly your advise of offering Russians an island near Karachi is neither possible nor a wise thing to do. Pak-Russian relations are still not deep enough. Just imagine in case of an Indo-Pak conflict Russia decides to back India and uses that island to launch attack on Pakistan or decides to give IN its access that would mean Karachi would be wiped from the world map in matter of days if not hours.

Lastly yes Indo-US relations and the leverages US is trying to give Indians are worrying but that doesn't mean we should take a stupid step. We must use diplomacy to tackle this issue. As far as South China Sea is concerned US still has the upper hand in the matters. Despite all the Chinese and Russian Naval advancements USN is still the biggest fish in the pond or the crocodile if I am not wrong.

Russia won't back india if they got the island for their navy remember they invaded Ukraine for just hot water ports their primary objective is to get a naval ports this is why they invaded Afghanistan to get in Baluchistan

They paid heavy price for it and India is no more have any importance for Russia only ties were deeper due to India bought Russian weapons and never hindered Russian interests

Now India is hindering Russia in Syrian conflict by standing with usa and opposed China russia S best friend

If you see Putin face with modi u get ur answrer

 

[MastanKhan]

I copy that. We've known the internals on this for almost two decades now. The Pakistani military has a huge issue with planning and strategic acquisitions. IMO, looking at the Navy and the AF and associated screw ups, they have, at the least wasted five chances of modernizing their fleet. They don't have forward looking view, but they talk about it. When things get difficult, they then blame America for it!!

When will the nation of Pakistan realize some serious short comings of their generals actions? You are a growing country and you can't close your eyes when its the military screwing shi**t up, things that otherwise would be cheaper and would make the country stronger.

I write this having built respect or the Pakistani military in how they are dealing with terrorism across three fronts. But the truth should also be said about the things not working properly.

Hi,

Well---then let me ask you this---. How can you see this and the pakistanis are blind to it---?

 

[Centurion2016]

Russia has weapons they will sell them too you.

HARD CASH no soft loans like chinease help on thunders

NO GRANT AID like you got from USA for F16/52

PAF needs to cough up $$$$$ Russia will give you SU35 even S400 or AKULA

They woont care what modi or india THINKS

PS.............LIKE WISE the MODI govt does not care whar Russia thinks when it spent 10 billion dollars onn USA and istraeli weapons this last 3 years either.

Pakistanis stop the talking and excuses make the orders