Qaher F313 l News & Discussion

[gambit]

No known platform on the planet is truly invisible to any kind of detection and you both know that!

RQ-170, B-2, F-117,... are all stealth designs but that doesn't mean they are undetectable!

Please stop using words like 'invisible' or 'undetectable' or 'impossible'. Those are media words. The correct phrase that the US military use is 'low radar observable'. Technically minded people would IMMEDIATELY know what it means -- never 'invisible'.

As for me, I have been trying to encourage people on this forum to be technically correct and this is how I use the words 'stealth' or 'stealthy'. In quotes to signify their technically vague descriptions.

And even the U.S. is fully aware that stealth by it's self is not sufficient and they need to utilize a combination of various tactics and countermeasures to have the desired effect
Today without the utilization various tactics, decoy's, jammers, EMP,... stealth aircraft weather they be fighters or cruise missiles are not sufficient to penetrate modern air defenses in any meaning full way!

So what?

Ever heard of the phrase 'combined arms tactics'? The Germans were said the first to utilize it back in WW II. Am not going into the historical details/arguments as to who used it first.

Combined arms tactics is where you use all the weapons platforms at your disposal to attack the enemy, not just at different points of his position, but also at different methods of defenses, forcing him to diversify his resources and eventually one or more defensive points will weaken. That is exactly what happened to the Iraqi Army back in Desert Storm, but US and allies did it on a scale and speed not seen before, including with the blitzkrieg, and not yet replicated by anyone since then.

No different if we use EW, decoy drones, and 'stealth' against a defensive posture. The goal is to blind, distract, and sneak by, all at the same time. If you have to diversify your resources enough, one of your defensive method will weaken JUST ENOUGH and that is all we want.

So it is not as if after we deploy the F-117, we had a combat revelation -- Ahhhh -- that the F-117 low radar observability was not enough. No, we used it by itself when feasible, and in combined arms tactics when necessary.

And ground skimming TF & TA only work if you know exactly where every air defense system from AAA to SAM to airborne sensors.... is located! And that data is of far more value than the ability to skim closer to the ground!
As for Cruise Missile sooner or later that missile will need to get within visible range and line of site of defensive systems protecting high value targets and there is no way around that either!

And that is why I tried to explain to Mr. Mortal when he claimed that the idea of 'stealth' cruise missile is nothing but a marketing gimmick designed to solely gain profit at the expense of military lives.

For starter, if there is the idea to make something 'stealthy', most likely the idea came from the military which came from the military observing the battlefields first hand. So the military ask if something if technically possible.

It looks to me that like Mr. Morty there, you did not read carefully my posts. In making the cruise missile 'stealthy', it will make the weapon's flight to be more predictive than reactive, giving it the better capability of making higher level decisions to deal with unplanned for threats, and ultimately making the weapon platform more lethal and more economic to use. All because the weapon can fly a few meters higher and less vulnerable to radar detection.

There is nothing 'gimmicky' about the idea of a 'stealthy' cruise missile.

Today technologically we are at a point where Tanks are being equipped with defensive equipment that can protect themselves against ATGM's so I don't care how low to the ground your cruise missiles are flying because processing power has reach a point that once you get close to a high value target with a relatively low speed platform all bets are off!

In Iran's case I would worry more about mass production in vast numbers and utilization of blitz tactics to overwhelm enemy defenses
And I could care less about ground skimming because without intel on enemy defenses the lower you fly to the ground the higher your chances of getting intercepted by lower cost systems!

SAM aren't cheep and NO ONE has an unlimited supply so if it was up to me I would mass produce cheaper low RCS cruise missiles in vast numbers that fly at higher altitudes and I would utilize cheaper tactics to disrupt optical & radar sensors during terminal guidance!

Hey...You are free to be confident about Iran's defense methods and postures.

 

[TheImmortal]

Please stop using words like 'invisible' or 'undetectable' or 'impossible'. Those are media words. The correct phrase that the US military use is 'low radar observable'. Technically minded people would IMMEDIATELY know what it means -- never 'invisible'.

As for me, I have been trying to encourage people on this forum to be technically correct and this is how I use the words 'stealth' or 'stealthy'. In quotes to signify their technically vague descriptions.


So what?

Ever heard of the phrase 'combined arms tactics'? The Germans were said the first to utilize it back in WW II. Am not going into the historical details/arguments as to who used it first.

Combined arms tactics is where you use all the weapons platforms at your disposal to attack the enemy, not just at different points of his position, but also at different methods of defenses, forcing him to diversify his resources and eventually one or more defensive points will weaken. That is exactly what happened to the Iraqi Army back in Desert Storm, but US and allies did it on a scale and speed not seen before, including with the blitzkrieg, and not yet replicated by anyone since then.

No different if we use EW, decoy drones, and 'stealth' against a defensive posture. The goal is to blind, distract, and sneak by, all at the same time. If you have to diversify your resources enough, one of your defensive method will weaken JUST ENOUGH and that is all we want.

So it is not as if after we deploy the F-117, we had a combat revelation -- Ahhhh -- that the F-117 low radar observability was not enough. No, we used it by itself when feasible, and in combined arms tactics when necessary.


And that is why I tried to explain to Mr. Mortal when he claimed that the idea of 'stealth' cruise missile is nothing but a marketing gimmick designed to solely gain profit at the expense of military lives.

For starter, if there is the idea to make something 'stealthy', most likely the idea came from the military which came from the military observing the battlefields first hand. So the military ask if something if technically possible.

It looks to me that like Mr. Morty there, you did not read carefully my posts. In making the cruise missile 'stealthy', it will make the weapon's flight to be more predictive than reactive, giving it the better capability of making higher level decisions to deal with unplanned for threats, and ultimately making the weapon platform more lethal and more economic to use. All because the weapon can fly a few meters higher and less vulnerable to radar detection.

There is nothing 'gimmicky' about the idea of a 'stealthy' cruise missile.


Hey...You are free to be confident about Iran's defense methods and postures.

The problem with your post is everything you said is what you LIKE to be in a “stealth”
Cruise missile.

None of the points you made in your drivel of posts about F-111 and TA/TF....did you ONCE and I mean ONCE actually talk about the JASSM-ER. You know.... the “stealth” cruise missile that was used in syria.

I once again reiterated that it relies on PHYSICAL DESIGN CHANGES and you once again ranted about algorithmic technologies (TA/TF) and Intelligence tatics of an military.

It’s like we were having two seperate conversations. You talking about a smart cruise missile that can detect radar points and stay either away from them or somehow go through those areas undetected. And I am sitting talking about the actual changes in JASSM-ER.

But again I’m happy to be proven wrong if you can provide evidence the JASSM-ER has that technology in it rather than just the physical design changes that were made to make it have a smaller RCS.

 

[AmirPatriot]

@gambit wouldn't stealth be useful for missiles that have a high altitude portion of flight? A flight profile first with medium/high altitude flight and then a dive to low altitude to he harder to hit and further avoid detection. This is what many supersonic anti ship cruise missiles do but I don't know about LACMs.

 

[gambit]

@gambit wouldn't stealth be useful for missiles that have a high altitude portion of flight? A flight profile first with medium/high altitude flight and then a dive to low altitude to he harder to hit and further avoid detection. This is what many supersonic anti ship cruise missiles do but I don't know about LACMs.

That is what I have been trying to explain all this time.

Due to its small size, the cruise missile is already difficult to detect. Difficult, but not impossible. So to make the weapon even more difficult to counter, we make it fly well below the radar horizon of most air defense systems out there. But at the same time, it also limit the weapon's ability to look ahead and become predictive instead of being reactive. To put it another way, you cannot predict or anticipate if you cannot see what is ahead.

If we raise the operational flight altitude, then the weapon returns to being difficult to detect instead of being extremely difficult. So making the weapon 'stealthy' is a natural progression, not a marketing gimmick like someone stated.

Flying below the radar horizon is already dangerous. Mountains can mask weather that can affect flight. A manned aircraft like the F-111, as when I was on the jet, can make independent and on-the-fly decisions to compensate for any unplanned events on the mission, even to abort if necessary. A cruise missile is a throwaway weapon. Once launched, it cannot return. So making the weapon predictive instead of reactive would be a good thing, and it needs a higher flight altitude for that. I cannot water this explanation down any further.

 

[pin gu]

Russia won’t halt titanium supplies to US – trade minister

Titanium supplies to the United States won’t be restricted as part of any response by Moscow to the sanctions imposed by the White House, according to Trade Minister Denis Manturov.
The minister compared the pointlessness of such a ban with restrictions imposed by the Ukrainian authorities on exports of gas turbines used by Russian shipbuilders as part of sanctions against Moscow.

“We assume that we will not follow because that would first of all affect shipments of (titanium components producer) VSMPO-Avisma and of its Russian-American joint-venture,” Manturov said in an interview with a local TV channel. “Why take decisions that have an adverse impact on our enterprises, on our producers?”

Last week, Russian Senator Sergey Ryabukhin said that the Federation Council considered adopting the ban on titanium exports to the US as part of a counter-sanction plan. The proposed measure was reportedly in retaliation to the penalties Washington imposed on Russia earlier this month.

@VEVAK

What do you think about possible oil for titanium deal with Russia ?

 

[Muhammed45]

Russia won’t halt titanium supplies to US – trade minister

Titanium supplies to the United States won’t be restricted as part of any response by Moscow to the sanctions imposed by the White House, according to Trade Minister Denis Manturov.
The minister compared the pointlessness of such a ban with restrictions imposed by the Ukrainian authorities on exports of gas turbines used by Russian shipbuilders as part of sanctions against Moscow.

“We assume that we will not follow because that would first of all affect shipments of (titanium components producer) VSMPO-Avisma and of its Russian-American joint-venture,” Manturov said in an interview with a local TV channel. “Why take decisions that have an adverse impact on our enterprises, on our producers?”

Last week, Russian Senator Sergey Ryabukhin said that the Federation Council considered adopting the ban on titanium exports to the US as part of a counter-sanction plan. The proposed measure was reportedly in retaliation to the penalties Washington imposed on Russia earlier this month.

@VEVAK

What do you think about possible oil for titanium deal with Russia ?

Do we have someone from kerman province in this forum?

Technology of Titanium enrichment with 99.9 percent purity was localized with Armenian help, I think in Kahnooj.

The factory has been designed to work in three stages, third stage which is supposed to produce Titanium with 99.9 percent purity, was the reason of the long time delay in opening the factory for years due to advanced technology required in that stage. As far as I know, Armenian company was helping our scientists in this field. And if this government hasn't destroyed it with financial crises, likely, we are producing Titanium with high purity.

@VEVAK Sir, what do you think?

 

[SubWater]

Do we have someone from kerman province in this forum?

Technology of Titanium enrichment with 99.9 percent purity was localized with Armenian help, I think in Kahnooj.

The factory has been designed to work in three stages, third stage which is supposed to produce Titanium with 99.9 percent purity, was the reason of the long time delay in opening the factory for years due to advanced technology required in that stage. As far as I know, Armenian company was helping our scientists in this field. And if this government hasn't destroyed it with financial crises, likely, we are producing Titanium with high purity.

@VEVAK Sir, what do you think?

Kahnooj ????
That is one of the poorest region of the country.
Hope that your info be true.
Does Titanium production need water ????

 

[Muhammed45]

Kahnooj ????
That is one of the poorest region of the country.
Hope that your info be true.
Does Titanium production need water ????

It can provide jobs for locals, thankfully. Just found a link for u bro
https://www.smtnews.ir/mine/mine-states/24014-پایانی-بر-۳۳سال-چشم‌انتظاری-کهنوج-برای-فرآوری-تیتانیوم . hamlet

33 years delay, damn.

We should deepen ties with Armenia, designer of Mig was an Armenian dude, unbelievable

Water, not that much.

Kahnooj ????
That is one of the poorest region of the country.
Hope that your info be true.
Does Titanium producftion need water ????

What you need in the process

If water is needed for cooling process, that's something else. Within the enrichment process its not of need.

 

[TruthHurtz]

We should deepen ties with Armenia, designer of SU 47 was an Armenian dude, unbelievable

do you have a source for this claim? i think you may be confused the designer of the su-27 series aircraft was a russian, but the designer of the famous mig-29 platform was armenian. there seems to be no available information on the su-47's designer.

 

[Muhammed45]

Th

do you have a source for this claim? i think you may be confused the designer of the su-27 series aircraft was a russian, but the designer of the famous mig-29 platform was armenian. there seems to be no available information on the su-47's designer.

Not My bad, thanks for the correction, edited the post. I had read that on a Web log and as it seems wrong information. It was Mikhail Simonov, however, doesn't change the fact that Armenian dude had a big role in progress of Russian aviation industry.

Still, I believe that Armenia has useful technologies, and once it was a part of Soviets

 

[VEVAK]

Do we have someone from kerman province in this forum?

Technology of Titanium enrichment with 99.9 percent purity was localized with Armenian help, I think in Kahnooj.

The factory has been designed to work in three stages, third stage which is supposed to produce Titanium with 99.9 percent purity, was the reason of the long time delay in opening the factory for years due to advanced technology required in that stage. As far as I know, Armenian company was helping our scientists in this field. And if this government hasn't destroyed it with financial crises, likely, we are producing Titanium with high purity.

@VEVAK Sir, what do you think?

http://www.presstv.com/Detail/2016/09/17/485086/Iran-minerals-titanium-production-investment

There are UN sanctions that prohibit Iran from producing it's own Titanium Alloy and so far the Rohani Administration has been far too compromising!
And 2 Million Euro investment is not enough! Hell 2 million Euro investment on a yearly bases for the next decade still wouldn't be enough to get a proper Ti industry going!

And the problem is not technological it's political and financial!

Russia won’t halt titanium supplies to US – trade minister

Titanium supplies to the United States won’t be restricted as part of any response by Moscow to the sanctions imposed by the White House, according to Trade Minister Denis Manturov.
The minister compared the pointlessness of such a ban with restrictions imposed by the Ukrainian authorities on exports of gas turbines used by Russian shipbuilders as part of sanctions against Moscow.

“We assume that we will not follow because that would first of all affect shipments of (titanium components producer) VSMPO-Avisma and of its Russian-American joint-venture,” Manturov said in an interview with a local TV channel. “Why take decisions that have an adverse impact on our enterprises, on our producers?”

Last week, Russian Senator Sergey Ryabukhin said that the Federation Council considered adopting the ban on titanium exports to the US as part of a counter-sanction plan. The proposed measure was reportedly in retaliation to the penalties Washington imposed on Russia earlier this month.

@VEVAK

What do you think about possible oil for titanium deal with Russia ?

I think Ti is available in abundance in Iran and we need a government that's willing to properly invest in it!

 

[Muhammed45]

http://www.presstv.com/Detail/2016/09/17/485086/Iran-minerals-titanium-production-investment

There are UN sanctions that prohibit Iran from producing it's own Titanium Alloy and so far the Rohani Administration has been far too compromising!
And 2 Million Euro investment is not enough! Hell 2 million Euro investment on a yearly bases for the next decade still wouldn't be enough to get a proper Ti industry going!

And the problem is not technological it's political and financial!

Why should we care about UN non sense? I can't get the reason, we must produce it.

Investment from foreign resources is good but if it doesn't exist, then we must do something with our own capabilities.

If the focus on missile technology extends a bit to Titanium enrichment, then we can have it after a short time.

 

[VEVAK]

Why should we care about UN non sense? I can't get the reason, we must produce it.

I don't think Iran should care one bit about UN nonsense! Problem is we have people in leadership position that are too shortsighted that think differently!

I think as soon as lab scale and R&D in Ti was done they should have gone full in with $100 Million USD "a year" investment for rapid production.
Ti is a strategic alloy that is NOT a rare earth alloy and is without a doubt a necessity! But sadly I just don't see the Rohani administration doing much to address it!

 

[OldTwilight]

Look like Qaher couldn't fly so the project was canceled ...

 

[TheImmortal]

Look like Qaher couldn't fly so the project was canceled ...

Do you have proof? Or are you just rambling your unsubstantiated claims?

Expecting Qaher to come into fruition before 2020 was folly. Modern fighter jet projects take 10-20 years to develop. To expect Iran to field a 5th gen fighter or 4++ gen fighter before Russia and China have even fielded their own was laughable.

If it takes Iran Navy YEARS to build a single 1970s designed corvette (mowj ships) why would you expect a brand new aircraft platform to be developed faster?