Putting the Indian Army's desire to import assault rifles in perspective

[GURU DUTT]

the idea ofmodular multi cal rifle is just a fancy way wasting money under indian condiotions all we nead is a 7.62 X 51 mm bullpup rifle with 29" inch barrel and a 3 feet overall lenth with rails on 12,3,6,9 O' Clock postions preferaballi with a gas driven roataing bolt and an over all empty wieght of less than 3Kgs & not more than 4.2 Kgs with 20 round mag & some adanced polymore body & some nice opticks & red dot

the idea is to have a light and compact & short but very power full bullpup rifle which is good for long range (450-600 m range) and short and light enof to be a good close quater combat rifle and has a devastating stopping power even at 400 + meter range yet contralable & accurate enof and to control the "kick" a butt damper could be added

Problem solved ONE FOR ALL AND ALL FOR ONE

 

[Omega007]

the idea ofmodular multi cal rifle is just a fancy way wasting money under indian condiotions all we nead is a 7.62 X 51 mm bullpup rifle with 29" inch barrel and a 3 feet overall lenth with rails on 12,3,6,9 O' Clock postions preferaballi with a gas driven roataing bolt and an over all empty wieght of less than 3Kgs & not more than 4.2 Kgs with 20 round mag & some adanced polymore body & some nice opticks & red dot

the idea is to have a light and compact & short but very power full bullpup rifle which is good for long range (450-600 m range) and short and light enof to be a good close quater combat rifle and has a devastating stopping power even at 400 + meter range yet contralable & accurate enof and to control the "kick" a butt damper could be added

Problem solved ONE FOR ALL AND ALL FOR ONE

And you proved that you are a fu*king moron.What's the obsession with bull pup.Regular army units are well off with conventional rifle designes.
And as for standardising on 7.62X51mm NATO ammo for regular infantry - are you nuts??Why do you want to move back in time??How many rounds the soldiers would be able to carry then??Who's gonna take care of increased logistical trails.......you??How the soldiers gonna handle the increased recoil kick??Do you even think before opening your hole??Why am I asking these questions to an imbecile??

And besides,the army knows its shit.They are the users so what they need is best left upto them.
And if I have to standardise on a single small arms ammunition type,then I would either go for the 6mm PPC or the 6.5mm Grendel (a farther development of the PPC).

 

[chairborne ranger]

You just gave us a lot unknown info there. You were that guy in the def expo? The one holding the Multi Cal rifle, giving commentary?

indeed.
I have a few people on the inside, which is why said review was snuck in. But apparently the drdo wanted it off youtube.
As gen. V.K. Singh said, the indian private sector has tremendous innovation, and could have outstripped china's if given the incentive.

The design is of course out of the ARDE. But the prototyping and ergonomics are solely, astra, other than the barrel, and a few minor components, which they decided to hold back on, so as not to hand a private firm a live firearm. Now that in itself is the worst kind of bullshit.

 

[GURU DUTT]

And you proved that you are a fu*king moron.What's the obsession with bull pup.Regular army units are well off with conventional rifle designes.
And as for standardising on 7.62X51mm NATO ammo for regular infantry - are you nuts??Why do you want to move back in time??How many rounds the soldiers would be able to carry then??Who's gonna take care of increased logistical trails.......you??How the soldiers gonna handle the increased recoil kick??Do you even think before opening your hole??Why am I asking these questions to an imbecile??

And besides,the army knows its shit.They are the users so what they need is best left upto them.
And if I have to standardise on a single small arms ammunition type,then I would either go for the 6mm PPC or the 6.5mm Grendel (a farther development of the PPC).

well 7.62 is the best against all kinds of modern armour + a bull pup is much much user friendli as wieght is spread across the lenth of the rifle and its not rear heavy so less fatigue for the soldier + since its smaller in lenth than a conventional rifle its much easier to carry and as for kick we can add a butt shock or damper as you see in some sniper rifels or maybe we can do what russians had done with with there latest rifle which fires two rounds simontaniousli before the recoil effect and also saves a bullet + giving far more destructive punch to the enemy

as for logisticks tell will it be wise and even possible for a soldier to carry three different types of ammo , barrel and asscories in battle and in a combat situation will it be wiser touse a light compact yet powerfull single gun and its ammo onli

and you genus is thinking of wieght well how much difference is there actualli between 5.56 and 7.62 well not more than 15-20% at the most

so according to idiots like you who just think of wieght(can be reduced with use of plymer body & other light alloys in bolt & spring action parts ) and kick(which is very controlable in bullpups & can be fi\urther dampenned with just one assecori) but dont think about logistiks , ease of handling and mainatinence


+ such a rifle will be easy to mass produce and will save a lot of time and money in deu course but will bevery very effective in any kind of battle situation


and you cal me fool ...think dumbo think

 

[Omega007]

well 7.62 is the best against all kinds of modern armour + a bull pup is much much user friendli as wieght is spread across the lenth of the rifle and its not rear heavy so less fatigue for the soldier + since its smaller in lenth than a conventional rifle its much easier to carry and as for kick we can add a butt shock or damper as you see in some sniper rifels or maybe we can do what russians had done with with there latest rifle which fires two rounds simontaniousli before the recoil effect and also saves a bullet + giving far more destructive punch to the enemy

as for logisticks tell will it be wise and even possible for a soldier to carry three different types of ammo , barrel and asscories in battle and in a combat situation will it be wiser touse a light compact yet powerfull single gun and its ammo onli

and you genus is thinking of wieght well how much difference is there actualli between 5.56 and 7.62 well not more than 15-20% at the most

so according to idiots like you who just think of wieght(can be reduced with use of plymer body & other light alloys in bolt & spring action parts ) and kick(which is very controlable in bullpups & can be fi\urther dampenned with just one assecori) but dont think about logistiks , ease of handling and mainatinence


+ such a rifle will be easy to mass produce and will save a lot of time and money in deu course but will bevery very effective in any kind of battle situation


and you cal me fool ...think dumbo think

Just like what I thought.You are not even a fool,but a total retard.You are just a busket case man.Clearly, don't even understand the logic behind using a multi cal rifle,so my advice to you is to go and educate yourself and then open your shithole.

As for your obsession with bullpups,most of the world armies including the Indian Army are still going for conventional rifles for their future standard issue.That should clear all the doubts.In reality,no matter what imbeciles like yourself believes is totally irrelevant.Reality is that bullpups are over-hyped,nothing special.

Like I said,you don't know a fucking thing about the rationale behind the multi cal concept,so stop spreading your poop in this thread,read up imbecile.

And how do you know that the M 80 ball is the "Best"??Wait,don't tell me,don't tell me........your dad,right??Well your dad is wrong kid.Recent ballistic studies have shown that among all the small arms rounds currently operational,the 6.5X43mm Grendel has got the highest ballistic coefficient yet it's significantly lighter than M80 balls.Again read up a thing or two,stop shooting from you hip.

Another jem for you!!So according to you,merely changing the rifle design to a bullpup one can solve the issue with recoil kick,that too from M80 balls!!You never cease to amaze me.Have you ever touched a firearm in your life??Don't even bother to reply,it was a rhetorical question which I already know the answer of.

And what the hell was that about the weight difference of 5.56mm and 7.62mm NATO rounds??What kind of a jerk talks such bs!!How did you reach to your 20% figure moron??!!Do you even know their respective weights??
A 5.56mm SS109 weighs 11.8 gm where as a M80 ball weighs 25.4 gm,so the difference is not just by 20% but by more than 200%!!Assuming 10 kg of ammo load per soldier,an individual soldier could carry just ~280 rounds of M80 balls where as for SS109,each soldier can carry 660+ rounds!!Same is also true for the ammo vehicles.So it does present a significant logistical problem smartarse!!

And you were calling me an idiot because I was worried about the logistical issues!!Do you know what General Patton once said.It goes by something like this - "The amateurs harp about tactics and strategies but a pro always thinks about logistics"!!

Anyway,all these talks are totally moot at this point of time since you speak without any knowledge on the most rudimentary things,yet you show the audacity of calling others dumbo!!It's a good thing that guys like you are not in the loop of decision makings and will never be able to manage up to that point and will remain confined to an online defence forum.

In fact on a second thought,you don't belong to a defence forum either.Ja jake sadak kinare pe jute polish kar.Wohi tere liye sehi kaam hoga.

 

[Water Car Engineer]

as for logisticks tell will it be wise and even possible for a soldier to carry three different types of ammo , barrel and asscories in battle and in a combat situation will it be wiser touse a light compact yet powerfull single gun and its ammo onli

Soldiers aren't carrying three different types of barrels, breech blocks, mag, etc. The quartermaster will most probably change the rifle for them. But most likely they'll use the same set up as today.

Kashmir will continue to use the 7.62(prob) and conventional soldiers will use 5.56(prob). Not sure were the new 6.8 will fit. Instead of like 3 different AK types in Kashmir, etc. And INSAS in the field, they'll only have one rifle. That's the plan I guess.

indeed.
I have a few people on the inside, which is why said review was snuck in. But apparently the drdo wanted it off youtube.
As gen. V.K. Singh said, the indian private sector has tremendous innovation, and could have outstripped china's if given the incentive.

The design is of course out of the ARDE. But the prototyping and ergonomics are solely, astra, other than the barrel, and a few minor components, which they decided to hold back on, so as not to hand a private firm a live firearm. Now that in itself is the worst kind of bullshit.

Chair, if you have any more info regarding the multi cal that you can share, please do.

 

[GURU DUTT]

Just like what I thought.You are not even a fool,but a total retard.You are just a busket case man.Clearly, don't even understand the logic behind using a multi cal rifle,so my advice to you is to go and educate yourself and then open your shithole.

As for your obsession with bullpups,most of the world armies including the Indian Army are still going for conventional rifles for their future standard issue.That should clear all the doubts.In reality,no matter what imbeciles like yourself believes is totally irrelevant.Reality is that bullpups are over-hyped,nothing special.

Like I said,you don't know a fucking thing about the rationale behind the multi cal concept,so stop spreading your poop in this thread,read up imbecile.

And how do you know that the M 80 ball is the "Best"??Wait,don't tell me,don't tell me........your dad,right??Well your dad is wrong kid.Recent ballistic studies have shown that among all the small arms rounds currently operational,the 6.5X43mm Grendel has got the highest ballistic coefficient yet it's significantly lighter than M80 balls.Again read up a thing or two,stop shooting from you hip.

Another jem for you!!So according to you,merely changing the rifle design to a bullpup one can solve the issue with recoil kick,that too from M80 balls!!You never cease to amaze me.Have you ever touched a firearm in your life??Don't even bother to reply,it was a rhetorical question which I already know the answer of.

And what the hell was that about the weight difference of 5.56mm and 7.62mm NATO rounds??What kind of a jerk talks such bs!!How did you reach to your 20% figure moron??!!Do you even know their respective weights??
A 5.56mm SS109 weighs 11.8 gm where as a M80 ball weighs 25.4 gm,so the difference is not just by 20% but by more than 200%!!Assuming 10 kg of ammo load per soldier,an individual soldier could carry just ~280 rounds of M80 balls where as for SS109,each soldier can carry 660+ rounds!!Same is also true for the ammo vehicles.So it does present a significant logistical problem smartarse!!

And you were calling me an idiot because I was worried about the logistical issues!!Do you know what General Patton once said.It goes by something like this - "The amateurs harp about tactics and strategies but a pro always thinks about logistics"!!

Anyway,all these talks are totally moot at this point of time since you speak without any knowledge on the most rudimentary things,yet you show the audacity of calling others dumbo!!It's a good thing that guys like you are not in the loop of decision makings and will never be able to manage up to that point and will remain confined to an online defence forum.

In fact on a second thought,you don't belong to a defence forum either.Ja jake sadak kinare pe jute polish kar.Wohi tere liye sehi kaam hoga.

lolzz so many abuses and insults in a single post and that too about imaginarry rifle lolzz

looks like you realli hate me ... good

lol mujhe itna hate to meri ex girlfriend ka pati bhi nahi kerta

 

[Omega007]

lolzz so many abuses and insults in a single post and that too about imaginarry rifle lolzz

looks like you realli hate me ... good

View attachment 38164

lol mujhe itna hate to meri ex girlfriend ka pati bhi nahi kerta

View attachment 38165

Man,I don't even know you.So why should I hate you??I don't hate YOU as a person,but I sure despise your habit of shooting from the hips.Clearly you lack any knowledge or understanding about the topic at hand,heck don't have any knowledge about the most basic and trivial matters yet you are quick to pass your judgements.

You will never see me passing judgements over aircrafts should since I know virtually nothing about them,so I lay low and try to absorb as much info from the other knowledgeable members as possible.

 

[MilSpec]

the idea ofmodular multi cal rifle is just a fancy way wasting money under indian condiotions all we nead is a 7.62 X 51 mm bullpup rifle with 29" inch barrel and a 3 feet overall lenth with rails on 12,3,6,9 O' Clock postions preferaballi with a gas driven roataing bolt and an over all empty wieght of less than 3Kgs & not more than 4.2 Kgs with 20 round mag & some adanced polymore body & some nice opticks & red dot

the idea is to have a light and compact & short but very power full bullpup rifle which is good for long range (450-600 m range) and short and light enof to be a good close quater combat rifle and has a devastating stopping power even at 400 + meter range yet contralable & accurate enof and to control the "kick" a butt damper could be added

Problem solved ONE FOR ALL AND ALL FOR ONE

Dear,

I disagree with you premise completely.

First thing is shooting 7.52 x51 nato for extended period from any format, bolt, semi, conventional pattern assault, or bull pup takes a toll on your shoulder. I personally have nothing against the round, infact it is my favorite cartridge to shoot, but operational efficacy of any full size rifle cartridge like 7.62x 51 nato, 7.62 x 54R, or the 30 06 is not favored in assault rifles, whose application is more diverse.

Next is the engagement range, you are right about engagement range of the 7.62 x 51 nato, but is comes at a price, the cost of the cartridge is higher, specially when you are arming the 2nd largest standing army on the face of the earth... The weight penalty is higher both from the ammunition itself along with the weapon system.... From engagement scenario, if a soldier knows he is fighting a high mobility warfare in ranges not exceeding 200 yards, he will always choose more ammo over extended ranges...

target acquisitions: trying to shoot 400 yards with open sight or a red dot is no easy feat, talking numbers is easy but shooting under duress at those ranges are big ask for any infantrymen. Apart from that laying cover fire or suppression fire takes a lot of rounds, and with the weight penalty you will run empty on 7.62x51 nato faster than you can think.


Modularity: I have been a big fan of modular weaon systems. note that AR15's have always been modular... the newer entries have better ergonomics and the ability to bring the same platform with different barrel configuration to satisfy different engagement scenarios. It is a very unlikely event that a solder will ever carry two different rifle rounds (at most rifle and pistol ammo), but the ability of a squad running 6.5 grendel on the border security detail and re-purposing them to 7.62 x 39 to engage in local coin, or setting them up to run 5.56 forward offensive all on the same platform is a very cost and logistically attractive proposition to me.

I am not implying you are wrong and I am right, these are just my views on the topic.


dear @Omega007 please edit your posts and remove offensive takes against gurudutt. Kee the discussion civil, both of you are proponents of well being of Indian Defence setup, there is no need to quarrel

thanks

 

[GURU DUTT]

Dear,

I disagree with you premise completely.

First thing is shooting 7.52 x51 nato for extended period from any format, bolt, semi, conventional pattern assault, or bull pup takes a toll on your shoulder. I personally have nothing against the round, infact it is my favorite cartridge to shoot, but operational efficacy of any full size rifle cartridge like 7.62x 51 nato, 7.62 x 54R, or the 30 06 is not favored in assault rifles, whose application is more diverse.

Next is the engagement range, you are right about engagement range of the 7.62 x 51 nato, but is comes at a price, the cost of the cartridge is higher, specially when you are arming the 2nd largest standing army on the face of the earth... The weight penalty is higher both from the ammunition itself along with the weapon system.... From engagement scenario, if a soldier knows he is fighting a high mobility warfare in ranges not exceeding 200 yards, he will always choose more ammo over extended ranges...

target acquisitions: trying to shoot 400 yards with open sight or a red dot is no easy feat, talking numbers is easy but shooting under duress at those ranges are big ask for any infantrymen. Apart from that laying cover fire or suppression fire takes a lot of rounds, and with the weight penalty you will run empty on 7.62x51 nato faster than you can think.


Modularity: I have been a big fan of modular weaon systems. note that AR15's have always been modular... the newer entries have better ergonomics and the ability to bring the same platform with different barrel configuration to satisfy different engagement scenarios. It is a very unlikely event that a solder will ever carry two different rifle rounds (at most rifle and pistol ammo), but the ability of a squad running 6.5 grendel on the border security detail and re-purposing them to 7.62 x 39 to engage in local coin, or setting them up to run 5.56 forward offensive all on the same platform is a very cost and logistically attractive proposition to me.

I am not implying you are wrong and I am right, these are just my views on the topic.


dear @Omega007 please edit your posts and remove offensive takes against gurudutt. Kee the discussion civil, both of you are proponents of well being of Indian Defence setup, there is no need to quarrel

thanks

ok then sir how about a polymer based Bullpup assual rifle like the latest desert tech MAR with a 27"barrel & 37" overall leanth & an empty wieght of 3.2 KG and pickatenni rails at 12,3,6&9 O; Clock postions and a 7.62 X 45 MM(or maybe a 6.8X45 mm) cartridge and a 30 round mag

i guess it will be great for medium range engagements (200-450 M) and good enof for close quarter engagements

we can buy patent & TOT from desert tech for it and produce it in huge numbers as we have everything required

please do respond sir

 

[MilSpec]

ok then sir how about a polymer based Bullpup assual rifle like the latest desert tech MAR with a 27"barrel & 37" overall leanth & an empty wieght of 3.2 KG and pickatenni rails at 12,3,6&9 O; Clock postions and a 7.62 X 45 MM(or maybe a 6.8X45 mm) cartridge and a 30 round mag

i guess it will be great for medium range engagements (200-450 M) and good enof for close quarter engagements

we can buy patent & TOT from desert tech for it and produce it in huge numbers as we have everything required

please do respond sir

Yeah desert tech rifles are POS for the price, they are 5 grand a piece btw....

Oooh, I do likey the Vz52 7.62x45, have to look up the ballistics,

this was my wishlist for a rifle system from 2012

Future of Insas rifle system:

Now India is in a position where stamped low cost rifle is not the need of the hour. New Insas or the F-Insas needs to have a solid machined receiver with high quality metals and precision machining.

New rifle system needs to be modular with 4 barrel systems and 5 quick change receivers, One barrel system can fire both 7.62x 39 and with change in receiver on the same barrel should accommodate the 7.62 x 51 nato (both the cartridges have same bullet but different casing lengths)

There should be dedicated receiver and barells for , 5.56 Nato, 6.8 SPC and a short barell system for OFB 5.56 x 30 round as a cqb carbine.

The system needs to be a bullpup system.

Rifle needs to have integrated peep sights, picatinny optics rails on and a quad rail system on the forward grips.

Rifle should also have tapped barrels and should come with a breaching flash hiders, a muzzle brake (for 7.62x 51) and a suppressor (for 5.56 x 30).

 

[bloo]

This baby is what IA needs...........

Beretta's ARX-160

 

[HariPrasad]

I refuse to accept the fact that DRDO cannot produce a single state of the art assault rifle of its own. This department is purposely left open for imports so that b@$tards eat off fat commissions.

Even the most inefficient defence organization can get a modern assault rifle from black market and adapt its firing mechanism in a few weeks time.

And DRDO while it is bureaucratic and lazy, is certainly not incapable.

Yes DRDO can build very good weapons. What the need is to screw them like navy does.

 

[Omega007]

Dear,

I disagree with you premise completely.

First thing is shooting 7.52 x51 nato for extended period from any format, bolt, semi, conventional pattern assault, or bull pup takes a toll on your shoulder. I personally have nothing against the round, infact it is my favorite cartridge to shoot, but operational efficacy of any full size rifle cartridge like 7.62x 51 nato, 7.62 x 54R, or the 30 06 is not favored in assault rifles, whose application is more diverse.

Next is the engagement range, you are right about engagement range of the 7.62 x 51 nato, but is comes at a price, the cost of the cartridge is higher, specially when you are arming the 2nd largest standing army on the face of the earth... The weight penalty is higher both from the ammunition itself along with the weapon system.... From engagement scenario, if a soldier knows he is fighting a high mobility warfare in ranges not exceeding 200 yards, he will always choose more ammo over extended ranges...

target acquisitions: trying to shoot 400 yards with open sight or a red dot is no easy feat, talking numbers is easy but shooting under duress at those ranges are big ask for any infantrymen. Apart from that laying cover fire or suppression fire takes a lot of rounds, and with the weight penalty you will run empty on 7.62x51 nato faster than you can think.


Modularity: I have been a big fan of modular weaon systems. note that AR15's have always been modular... the newer entries have better ergonomics and the ability to bring the same platform with different barrel configuration to satisfy different engagement scenarios. It is a very unlikely event that a solder will ever carry two different rifle rounds (at most rifle and pistol ammo), but the ability of a squad running 6.5 grendel on the border security detail and re-purposing them to 7.62 x 39 to engage in local coin, or setting them up to run 5.56 forward offensive all on the same platform is a very cost and logistically attractive proposition to me.

I am not implying you are wrong and I am right, these are just my views on the topic.


dear @Omega007 please edit your posts and remove offensive takes against gurudutt. Kee the discussion civil, both of you are proponents of well being of Indian Defence setup, there is no need to quarrel

thanks

No longer possible for me.

This baby is what IA needs...........

Beretta's ARX-160

Well,the barrel is simply too short for an assault rifle to equip the regulars.I guess we can mate the 18.4" INSAS barrel with this.

Yeah desert tech rifles are POS for the price, they are 5 grand a piece btw....

Oooh, I do likey the Vz52 7.62x45, have to look up the ballistics,

this was my wishlist for a rifle system from 2012

What is 7.62X45??Which round is it,never heard of it before.

And one more thing @sandy_3126 ,don't you think that India should have gone with 6.5mm Grendel/Lapua Scenar instead of the Remington SPC for the FINSAS rifle??I mean the Lapua has a BC of .675 which is the best among all available small arms rounds??What's your take in this??

 

[Tshering22]

Yes DRDO can build very good weapons. What the need is to screw them like navy does.

I agree. Most of these buggers have political masters telling them to perform shoddily so that imports can earn them fat paycheques. This is the reason why I personally wanted NaMo to oversee which is kinda happening, so that even Jaitley is not tempted to do what has been going on.