Pulwama - From Bluster to a Whimper

[thinkingcap81]

You can follow as many Indian fora as you like. 16 inventory is complete and confirmed by US sources. Now if you or your indian fora still have doubts about that then recofirm it from US sources if you want.
Re MKI I guess I have to agree with you that till the wreckage is found it will remain unconfirmed beyond doubt. IAF will NEVER accept its loss as it does not serve any advantage to it. I dont think PAF will release concrete info which is irrefutable. Alan Warne is printing something in June issue of AFM. Lets see what he has learnt.
A

To my knowledge, the Pentagon or any worthwhile official source has not independently confirmed the F-16 count, please point it to me if i am mistaken.

I did not understand why you had go get irritated if i follow Indian forums. At the moment PDF and a couple of Indian forums are somewhat similar in their attitudes.

PS: I dont like how you guys slyly bring in your perspective while trying to maintain a neutral attitude. The F16 debate was not part of this debate at all but you just snuck it in trying to stay under the radar. This is slimy and dirty and I dont do dirty!. I would suggest that you either display your true feelings openly and write what you believe in or stay neutral or better still OUT of this discussion. I dont mind open discussion but let your cards be on the table so debate can progress rather than acting like a slimy snake taking pot shots from behind the veil of neutrality.

I have no such intention, and Sir, kindly do not impose your understanding of me as the truth. I have very little clarity on what actually happened, and am sure that this is the case with a lot of other members too - even those with high maturity.
When i have said that we need to wait for the truth to come out for the MKI, does it not tell what my belief is? For the F-16 i am willing to accept the Pakistani perspective also.

In any discussion on this forum, digressions are always a part of the conversation. Further, we are all patriotic citizens of our own country.

 

[araz]

To my knowledge, the Pentagon has not independently confirmed the F-16 count, please point it to me if i am mistaken.

I did not understand why you had go get irritated if i follow Indian forums. At the moment PDF and a couple of Indian forms are somewhat similar in their attitudes.

Search it on the forum yourself. Iam not here to hold your hand and spoon feed you. There is no congruity between Indian and pakistani fora and suggesting that is not understanding the difference between chalk and cheese.
Iam not irritated but I am straight forward. Call a spade a spade and stand by your comment. I have respect for some Indian posters as one can indulge in a healthy debate with them. However respect is earned by projecting honesty and not by taking pot shots while playing neutral. This is my last post on the subject. Does not matter whether you answer or not. I have stated my position clearly. This is not disrespect as I dont disrespect anyone but I have little time to visit the forum and dont want to waste it in frivulous debates.
Kind regards
A

 

[airomerix]

now that has changed the meaning totally, what you meant was we anticipated their response but did not expect it from Mig 21 or didn't expect Mig21 to cross the border alone

Meaning has not changed.

You just need to understand it instead of nit picking on small details pertaining to PAF's expectations from the outcome. Shooting down of migs of Su's was not an expectation. We were prepared to face it but we didnt expect it to take place. There was no historical evidence to suggest it also.

As per your info and understanding, if the Mig-21 had not tried to engage with an intent to bring an aircraft down, would the PAF have fired against IAF aircraft?

Had Mig not crossed into our territory. You would still have. Doesnt matter what he was trying to do. You cross into our territory you get the fist.

 

[Pakistani Fighter]

Meaning has not changed.

You just need to understand it instead of nit picking on small details pertaining to PAF's expectations from the outcome. Shooting down of migs of Su's was not an expectation. We were prepared to face it but we didnt expect it to take place. There was no historical evidence to suggest it also.



Had Mig not crossed into our territory. You would still have. Doesnt matter what he was trying to do. You cross into our territory you get the fist.

If everything is ok now then why are not we opening our airspace?

 

[airomerix]

To my knowledge, the Pentagon or any worthwhile official source has not independently confirmed the F-16 count, please point it to me if i am mistaken.

Pentagon doesnt need to confirm. Its not their business. When was the last time you heard pentagon confirming losses of other airforces?

A very senior correspondant attached to Pentagon confirmed it. This is what journalists do! They investigate. And her credibility is confirmed by the fact that she is attached to pentagon.

I did not understand why you had go get irritated if i follow Indian forums. At the moment PDF and a couple of Indian forums are somewhat similar in their attitudes.

Because you Indians vomit here after every few days. Instead of understanding about the whole fiasco of mig and su downing you just start a new discussion and run in circles.

I have no such intention, and Sir, kindly do not impose your understanding of me as the truth. I have very little clarity on what actually happened, and am sure that this is the case with a lot of other members too - even those with high maturity.
When i have said that we need to wait for the truth to come out for the MKI, does it not tell what my belief is? For the F-16 i am willing to accept the Pakistani perspective also.

In any discussion on this forum, digressions are always a part of the conversation. Further, we are all patriotic citizens of our own country.

As long as you on PDF.

Get this straight for your own clarity and posting here. Su-30 has been shot down. Period.

Ghauris if I remember may have been withdrawn as Shaheen is quicker to prepare more accurate and has more or less similar range now.
A


Following rules of engagement no Air craft can be shot down if it is in its own air space. It is classed as aggression. PAF shot the ones that crossed over. If Abhi had not crossed over and his comms had not been blocked he may well have returned with his Aircraft intact. The issue of MKI that @airomerix has pointed to is part of the complexity of engaging enemy Platforms in PEACETIME.
Obviously in all out war everything is different.
A

Thanks!

Those members who are confused about peace time RoE's to be equally aggressive please refer to this post. 27th Feb is classified as a peace time. Period.

 

[TsAr]

So why cant we replace all Ghauris with Shaheen?

Missiles are not cheap toys that you can just throw away and replace. Ghauri has its own utility and will serve till the lifetime of the missile.

 

[TheTallGuy]

I will tell you how it makes sense.

The situation in the air is always changing. It is so fast paced that even if a jet makes a 360, he exits the fight altogether (speaking of dogfights).

The orders for shooting down came when there was a situation X. The bandits were getting close. The probablity of the debris of those jets falling inside Pakistan was certain. The green signal came.

BUT. We now saw the same bandits moving away. The situation has changed now. There is no need to go after them and shoot them down EVEN IF WE CAN. There is a difference.

Bhai Jaan....You spin it as likes Murali, Qadirs and Shane Warne....logically CAP should have threatened the strike package 1st that means Mirage 2000i and Su-30MKI any firing would have targeted CAPs. after all CAPs are their to respond 1st scramblers will respond 2nd

Or you are saying after looking at approaching strike package CAPs retreated and Scramblers were told to engage...if not what were 2 x Mirage 2000i and 3 x Su-30MKI were doing? in initial situation X as you say..

Yet as per your narrative 1st was MiG-21BISON(Scrambler) then Su-30MKI(CAP) were shot down.

Is it me or You have a Big Hole in your narrative....please fill it

 

[CriticalThought]

Bhai Jaan....You spin it as likes Murali, Qadirs and Shane Warne....logically CAP should have threatened the strike package 1st that means Mirage 2000i and Su-30MKI any firing would have targeted CAPs. after all CAPs are their to respond 1st scramblers will respond 2nd

Or you are saying after looking at approaching strike package CAPs retreated and Scramblers were told to engage...if not what were 2 x Mirage 2000i and 3 x Su-30MKI were doing? in initial situation X as you say..

Yet as per your narrative 1st was MiG-21BISON(Scrambler) then Su-30MKI(CAP) were shot down.

Is it me or You have a Big Hole in your narrative....please fill it

There is another hole in his narrative. On the one hand he is defending the muted PAF response doe to ROE, on the other hand he is insisting on BVR kill of Su-30 at max range. If his ROE argument is correct, then Su-30 should have been inside Pakistani airspace and debris should fall around/near the LOC. If Su-30 was deep in Indian territory, that refutes his own ROE theory.

 

[Ghost 125]

i dont know why you people are still arguing about that skirmish. simple facts are:
1 Mig shot down by F 16
1 MI 17 shot down by indian spyder
pilot captured
6 air crew killed (from MI 17)
6 locations hit by mirrages
multiple AMRAMS fired at SUs

everything else is speculation and theres no evidence for anyting else. Just Move ON

 

[thinkingcap81]

A very senior correspondant attached to Pentagon confirmed it. This is what journalists do! They investigate. And her credibility is confirmed by the fact that she is attached to pentagon.

Get this straight for your own clarity and posting here. Su-30 has been shot down. Period.

And this is all the proof that we are going to get - claims and counterclaims from either side. At the moment there's nothing more to ask from my side.

Regards.

 

[airomerix]

Bhai Jaan....You spin it as likes Murali, Qadirs and Shane Warne....logically CAP should have threatened the strike package 1st that means Mirage 2000i and Su-30MKI any firing would have targeted CAPs. after all CAPs are their to respond 1st scramblers will respond 2nd

Or you are saying after looking at approaching strike package CAPs retreated and Scramblers were told to engage...if not what were 2 x Mirage 2000i and 3 x Su-30MKI were doing? in initial situation X as you say..

Yet as per your narrative 1st was MiG-21BISON(Scrambler) then Su-30MKI(CAP) were shot down.

Is it me or You have a Big Hole in your narrative....please fill it

Where did i even say CAPS retreated? Or where did I say Mirages landed back? Please dont quote me irresponsibly.

The reason you're finding holes is because you are trying very hard to imagine the facts which no one has seen including myself. All the information I have is through people who were there. Even they did not know exactly which jets were airborne and which ones refused to engaged. And this is a sort of information useless to myself and us here at PDF. Neither would the pilots talk about it.

 

[Pakistani Fighter]

Where did i even say CAPS retreated? Or where did I say Mirages landed back? Please dont quote me irresponsibly.

The reason you're finding holes is because you are trying very hard to imagine the facts which no one has seen including myself. All the information I have is through people who were there. Even they did not know exactly which jets were airborne and which ones refused to engaged. And this is a sort of information useless to myself and us here at PDF. Neither would the pilots talk about it.

What is the purpose of F7s now?

 

[airomerix]

And this is all the proof that we are going to get - claims and counterclaims from either side. At the moment there's nothing more to ask from my side.

Regards.

Either side is one thing. A senior pentagon correspondent is certainly not on Pakistan's payroll.

So the credibility of the story on F-16s count held so much weight. That your IAF chief had to swallow it by conducting a press conference. Here. A FACT.

There is another hole in his narrative. On the one hand he is defending the muted PAF response doe to ROE, on the other hand he is insisting on BVR kill of Su-30 at max range. If his ROE argument is correct, then Su-30 should have been inside Pakistani airspace and debris should fall around/near the LOC. If Su-30 was deep in Indian territory, that refutes his own ROE theory.

So you're back from your hole.

Try bringing something to the table next time. Or you're good for nothing on this forum.

 

[CriticalThought]

Either side is one thing. A senior pentagon correspondent is certainly not on Pakistan's payroll.

So the credibility of the story on F-16s count held so much weight. That your IAF chief had to swallow it by conducting a press conference. Here. A FACT.



So you're back from your hole.

Try bringing something to the table next time. Or you're good for nothing on this forum.

Sooooo Mr. Bull Shi*ter you are ready to descend into the turd from whence you sprang. I ignored you previously but now let me rub your face into the sh*t you are excreting from your arse hole. Dreaming scenarios from your backside just shows your need for self-important. If you thought you will get the ego massaging that you don't get at home, you came to the wrong forum. Anyone can claim to have 'insider' knowledge but on this forum you are only an insider if you are a title holder, or introduced by the mods. With claims not backed by OSINT, and self-contradictory in nature you are fooling no one. Your amateurishness is already exposed by gambit, and your credibility is evident from misquoting a document made for game simulation. Did your daddy take away your joystick? Maybe go read your physics textbook to lessen some of the dung inside your cranium.

 

[Behram Khilji]

Either side is one thing. A senior pentagon correspondent is certainly not on Pakistan's payroll.

So the credibility of the story on F-16s count held so much weight. That your IAF chief had to swallow it by conducting a press conference. Here. A FACT.



So you're back from your hole.

Try bringing something to the table next time. Or you're good for nothing on this forum.

Back from his hole?, All he did was question your version, now that's what sane people do, eliminate facts from fiction.

Most of your content is contradictory, however each to their own and believe what they wish, I have no quarrel with that.