Proof of Indian Involvement in Waziristan found: Army

[Bullhead]

Here is a pic of mortar equipments manufactured By OFB India fto be used by Indian Army..

 

[Bullhead]

And here is a piece of old news that talks about Pakistan army Handing over 82 MM mortars to Afghan Army....wonder if that has found its way back to Pakistan.

Pakistan Pledges Weapons for Afghan Army


ISLAMABAD, Pakistan - Pakistan's army gave the Afghan government submachine guns, mortars and rocket-propelled grenades on Sunday to help build its fledgling national army.


Pakistan handed over 500 submachine guns, 180 82mm mortars, rockets and 50,000 rounds of ammunition in a ceremony at a Pakistani air force base near the capital, an armed forces statement said.


"Afghanistan badly needs this kind of assistance, which will enable Afghanistan to run their own matters, and we appreciate it," said Rehmahulla Musaghazi, an official at the Afghan Embassy in Islamabad, who was on hand at Chaklala Air Force Base to accept the weapons.


The Pakistani army also said it would train Afghan military personnel at bases in Pakistan, but did not say when this would begin.


The Afghan National Army now has about 1,800 soldiers, but President Hamid Karzai has said he hopes it will eventually grow to 70,000. Creation of the army is seen as vital to the central government's ability to extend its control nationwide.


Pakistan was a supporter of the hard-line Taliban government, but it switched sides and backed a U.S. military operation to oust the regime after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks.


Pakistan pledges weapons, ammunition to help Afghan national army | Article from AP Worldstream | HighBeam Research

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

And here is a piece of old news that talks about Pakistan army Handing over 82 MM mortars to Afghan Army....wonder if that has found its way back to Pakistan.

Pakistan Pledges Weapons for Afghan Army


ISLAMABAD, Pakistan - Pakistan's army gave the Afghan government submachine guns, mortars and rocket-propelled grenades on Sunday to help build its fledgling national army.


Pakistan handed over 500 submachine guns, 180 82mm mortars, rockets and 50,000 rounds of ammunition in a ceremony at a Pakistani air force base near the capital, an armed forces statement said.


"Afghanistan badly needs this kind of assistance, which will enable Afghanistan to run their own matters, and we appreciate it," said Rehmahulla Musaghazi, an official at the Afghan Embassy in Islamabad, who was on hand at Chaklala Air Force Base to accept the weapons.


The Pakistani army also said it would train Afghan military personnel at bases in Pakistan, but did not say when this would begin.


The Afghan National Army now has about 1,800 soldiers, but President Hamid Karzai has said he hopes it will eventually grow to 70,000. Creation of the army is seen as vital to the central government's ability to extend its control nationwide.


Pakistan was a supporter of the hard-line Taliban government, but it switched sides and backed a U.S. military operation to oust the regime after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks.


Pakistan pledges weapons, ammunition to help Afghan national army | Article from AP Worldstream | HighBeam Research

Again, just because other nations use/manufacture 82 mm mortars does not on its own imply that these are not Indian - there are usually markings indicating origin.

I would continue to explore the point you made about India not manufacturing 82 mm mortar ammo.

 

[PostColonial]

Also, the Chinese stuff doesn't seem to have a big sign saying "Chinese Ammo" next to it.

Seems to me like the local commander is over-eager to please his bosses.

 

[Bullhead]

Again, just because other nations use/manufacture 82 mm mortars does not on its own imply that these are not Indian - there are usually markings indicating origin.

I would continue to explore the point you made about India not manufacturing 82 mm mortar ammo.

Well AM, I have provided you the links to OFB website that contains details on 81 MM Mortar Made by OFB India for India army.

This was a legacy I guess we got from English Rule(Colonial), because what I know English Forces also use 81 mm Mortars.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

BTW,

Here is an excellent post by a gentleman named Ali on LWJ on the subject of why the possibility of Indian support for select Taliban and Baluch groups cannot be ignored:

===============

Ali:

The Pakistani government explains the Malakand Accord as a gambit required to demonstrate the viciousness of the TTP to the public, and finally swing public opinion against them. This explanation certainly fits the facts, since polls in Pakistan had previously shown people to support peace talks as an instrument, their previous failures not withstanding.

Cutting peace deals with Bahadur and Nazir is frustrating to watch, but these groups (and Haqqani) aren't directly threatening Pakistan right now, and it appears the army is trying to prioritize who it takes on given the paltry number of personnel it is recommitting away from the Indian border.

The remark about Baitullah being a patriot is ridiculous, no question. It is also true that the Army has been populated significantly by officers following the Deobandi sect, and who have a history of supporting the Taliban. Remember that the Taliban were openly allies of Pakistan pre 9/11. It seems to me there still significant numbers of such zealots in the army. However, public sentiment in Pakistan has swung massively against the Taliban, as it should given the carnage this month.

However, there's a significant amount of testimony outside Pakistan backing the claim about Indian involvement.

Arun Shourie, the Indian parlimentarian, had this to say in his speech to the Lok Sabha after 26/11 (http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?239206):

"Eleven, the time when large armies could be sent across the borders -- [it is said a lot that we should attack Pakistan]-- that time has gone. The time when large bodies of armies could be sent across the borders has gone. There are no training camps to bomb. But Pakistan gives us the clue what we should be doing to make them register a cause, that is, look at the violence in Kashmir in the last year-and-a-half that has gone down because Pakistan has been preoccupied in its own problems. So, keep it preoccupied in its own problems in Baluchistan, in Gilgit Baltistan, in ***."

Vikram Sood, the former R&AW chief, had much the same to say (http://soodvikram.blogspot.com/2009_01_05_archive.htm)

As did B Raman (http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?239124):

A divided Pakistan, a bleeding Pakistan, a Pakistan ever on the verge of collapse without actually collapsing--that should be our objective till it stops using terrorism against India.

The opinion expressed by these Indians is basically that the conventional projection of force is denied by Pakistan's nukes, so unconventional force should be used.

There's a great article here (www.outlookindia.com | To Understand Pakistan, 1947 Is The Wrong Lens) explaining why Pakistan is so paranoid about India. In two words: Bangladesh, 1971

The evidence I've given you so far is sabre-rattling by mainstream Indian politicians and officials. There are also statements by Americans.

There's the heatedly disputed article in Foreign Policy:
Can the intel community defuse India-Pakistan tensions? | The Cable

'While the U.S. media has frequently reported on Pakistani ties to jihadi elements launching attacks in Afghanistan, it has less often mentioned that India supports insurgent forces attacking Pakistan, the former intelligence official said. "The Indians are up to their necks in supporting the Taliban against the Pakistani government in Afghanistan and Pakistan," the former intelligence official who served in both countries said. "The same anti-Pakistani forces in Afghanistan also shooting at American soldiers are getting support from India. India should close its diplomatic establishments in Afghanistan and get the Christ out of there."'

The problem with this claim is that it, and its rebuttals, were both by anonymous sources. Not so Christina Fair of RAND (Roundtables | Foreign Affairs

"I think it would be a mistake to completely disregard Pakistan's regional perceptions due to doubts about Indian competence in executing covert operations. That misses the point entirely. And I think it is unfair to dismiss the notion that Pakistan's apprehensions about Afghanistan stem in part from its security competition with India. Having visited the Indian mission in Zahedan, Iran, I can assure you they are not issuing visas as the main activity! Moreover, India has run operations from its mission in Mazar (through which it supported the Northern Alliance) and is likely doing so from the other consulates it has reopened in Jalalabad and Qandahar along the border. Indian officials have told me privately that they are pumping money into Baluchistan."

Ultimately, Pakistan has enough problems to fix of its own, and it is always going to come out with a black eye if it takes India on given the size discrepancy. It needs to aggressively pursue the Mumbai terrorists and pursue peace. However, India's stated intent and actions cannot be swept under the rug.

 

[PostColonial]

India doesn't even manufacture 82 mm mortars. Indian army uses 81mm and 55mm.

The Russians and Chinese do, however ,use 82mm mortars.

 

[PostColonial]

That LWJ article is mere speculation on the possible reasons why India could consider supporting the TTP. Infact, its worse than speculation. Its a case of selective quote-mining, otherwise known as propaganda.

 

[qsaark]

PA would like to investigate:

A. Where the mortars were manufactured

B. Following the serial numbers, it should not be difficult to identify if they were ever exported to India

C. If they were ever exported to India, what they were doing in Waziristan

But I agree with Agno and several other Indian and Pakistani members that the issue needs further investigations before reaching to the conclusion.

Sri Lankan forces have repeatedly confiscate 82mM Mortars from captured LTTE hideouts, where they were coming from? Just a food for thought.

That LWJ article is mere speculation on the possible reasons why India could consider supporting the TTP. Infact, its worse than speculation. Its a case of selective quote-mining, otherwise known as propaganda.

Only because of your ‘holier than thou’ attitude. Such claims only reflect that either you have never read the history and you do not understand the international politics, or you are simply in a denial mode. Any sane person, Indian or Pakistani would know that all the countries interfere in each others matter at various degrees to secure a better negotiation position and this is very much an accepted part of international politics. India is not run by the Army of angels and its activities in the neighboring countries are well proven and documented. Repeatedly denying a fact wont change it whether you like it or not.

 

[dabong1]

What proof would be needed for the indians to accept that they are involved with the terrorist?

Do we have to capture an indian officer in full uniform.

 

[Bullhead]

Here is a list of Infantry Mortars being Manufactured and used by different countries.

List of infantry mortars - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

India manufactures only 81 mm E1 Mortars.

India army uses 81mm E1 Mortar.

 

[PostColonial]

Can someone answer this question:

Why isn't Chinese involvement being investigated, given that one of the captured devices has clearly got Chinese markings on it?

Also, why does only the allegedly Indian-made ammunition have the "Indian Ammo" markings on it? Why don't they mark the Chinese ammo, and the other ammo which is presumably sourced from different countries?

__________

Qsaark: Don't teach me lessons about international politics. India is not being "holier than thou" by keeping its fingers well out of the Waziristan pie. It would be utterly foolish support a movement that wants to convert Pakistan into an Islamic state. There's no love lost for Pakistan within India, but Indians know better than to shoot themselves in the foot by supporting these morons.

_________

However, what is most worrying that inspite of these militants being from Pakistan, their leaders being Pakistanis, their agenda being openly anti-India, and their ideology being the complete anthesis of Hinduism or anything to do with Hindus, Pakistanis are so damned obsessed with "Indian involvement".

From the pictures shown, there is absolutely nothing to indicate that they are of Indian origin. Infact, its quite clear that the Indian ordinance factories don't even manufacture the kind of mortars shown here. Unless the Pakistani authorities can provide some actual evidence rather than a piece of paper with "Indian Ammo" printed across it, nobody is going to believe it.
Infact, the already pathetic credibility of the Pakistani establishment in the international arena has dropped a few notches after this particular incident of pathetic clutching at straws.

 

[PostColonial]

This is what Indian 81mm mortar looks like:

 

[Goodperson]

What proof would be needed for the indians to accept that they are involved with the terrorist?

Do we have to capture an indian officer in full uniform.

Whatever proof which is acceptable by Pakistan court of Law.

 

[trickey]

My opinion is as follows:

If the Indian government is found to be supporting or directly responsible for acts of terrorism in Pakistan, it should be made to pay the price on the world stage.

The time for being patriotic and blindly defending our respective countries is over. We are all living in an explosive environment.

However, the Pakistan government must bring concrete, viable and irrefutable proof to the governments of the world.

Why do I say 'governments of the world'?

Because, realistically, it is impossible to actually prove these things to the satisfaction of the man on the street. But all governments have their own way of finding and presenting information. So - to make it easier for Pakistan - the Pakistani government must therefore convince leading world governments.

In the meanwhile some Pakistanis should also show greater maturity in acknowledging that, regardless of Indian support, the responsibility and blame for what is happening in Pakistan lies fair and square on your shoulders.

Do you really think that these criminals could have flourished in Pakistan without the active support of Pakistanis? Do you really think what is happening in your country - massive explosions,, an army almost at war within its borders, a state almost under siege - is because of a few 'misguided' 'innocent Muslim brothers' who are being duped by foreigners? That thinking is bound to create more trouble, not less.

In the meanwhile, also remember that Pakistani officials have spoken of Indian involvement in the past. But we have not heard from them a few days after they made their claims. I do not say that India is not involved; but the GOP must follow through on its claims. Otherwise, we will only worsen the situation; and common Pakistanis will only feel more bitter.

Prosecuting 26/11 conspirators without drama is just not possible. Hence, these accusations. All India needs to do is to demand the same quality of evidence from Pakistanis as they themselves wanted for prosecuting 26/11 conspirators. Give Indian prosecutors the names, voice recordings, movements of the Indian terrorists. Then perhaps India can be convinced to look into it.