Featured Project Azm: Pakistan's Ambitious Quest to Develop 5th Generation Military Technologies.

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Thank you for this post sir. These last few pages of the thread reflected typical Pakistani mentality, haye Allah hum kuch nahi kar saktay hum tu soii bhi nahi bunna saktay. An example for Pakistanis, when push come to shove these same Pakistanis, your own countrymen, designed and produced ventilators within a matter of weeks.


So my message to all would be to stop worshiping the white or yellow skin. They are humans afterall and they have equal brain power as you. Before making any jet we need to inculcate self-belief within our nation that has been systematically removed since the 1970s. I dare say Imran Khan and his generation is the last of the Pakistanis who held self belief and a burning desire to meet adversary eye to eye (que Tahir Shah image). In these last few decades our education system is churning out copy paste monkeys one after another, with no desire for innovation or stand on our own feet. Bus China ya Amreeka dehday sastay mein humara kaam hojai, zindagi bhar maintenance kar liengaye koi masla nahi.

The saddest part isn't even that, it's the one where they haven't even figured how to practically pay for Chinese/American equipment because they don't understand how the monetary system works! Cue: more loans, more IMF, more foreign ownership of Pakistani resources/industries, etc.

I am smelling a lot of pessimism in the air in context of progress on Azm. Just to put things back in prespective, let's revisit what PAF said when the project was launched.

"PAC Kamra, established back in 1971 as a repair and overhaul facility for imported aircraft and later under-license production of aircraft and avionics systems. Even though it has grown in size to cater for more types and number of platforms, including ground radars, PAC still remains dependant on foreign OEMs due to lack of in-house design and development capability. This severely limits its capability to independently support PAF operations and have any worthwhile global presence.

Air Staff vision of Aviation City Kamra is all about changing this paradigm by establishing design and development institutes and bringing in academic institutes for creating a sustainable R&D ecosystem that will enable the Pakistani aviation industry to provide indigenous solutions to PAF, sister services and civil aviation, and facilitating it to become a global player.

The office of DG AvRID (Director General Aviation Research Innovation & Development) has been established to transform into reality the Air Staff vision as stated above, with the long term goal of developing our own fifth generation fighter aircraft (FGFA). Development of FGFA would be a major national program that would entail massive amount of work; not all of which may possibly be carried out within PAC, or even within Pakistan. Such large scale development requires synergetic efforts from a number of industrial (public & private) and academic organizations to fulfill the enormous task. These efforts by themselves will enable development of technologies that will find applications in a number of other systems. The guiding motto will be “cooperation within, competition outside”.

https://www.pac.org.pk/avrid-introduction

1. Blue Text:Realization by PAF about where PAC is standing.
2. Red Text: Challenge/Mission. Again PAF is cognizant about the scale of this challenge and it is openly stated that not all the work will be possible in Pakistan (even if we combined all naitional efforts). And this is reality every one knows.
3. Green Text: If AZM gets treatment similar to our nuclear/ missile program, I see hope and for us that's the only way forward to keep it running, away from red-tapes while seeking/taking help from wherever and whenever possible and to make that happen biggest asset will be unconditional political will.

We are far from perfect as society but we are not without good people if they are allowed to perform. We have shown the world. As for Flight Control System, it is my understanding that PAC has realized from very onset that creating human resource and knowledge base for such complex system lies in that areas which has been identified beyond the possibility within PAC, or even within Pakistan, So they have decided to develop human resources and expertise in other areas and seek foreign cooperation in FCS. Establishment of an entire university campus within Aviation City, is an indication that PAC has realized that HEC universities may fail in producing required number of graduates in specific disciplines. Even if everything goes as per planned, things are going to take time. Remember, it is a long term program. Government must include it in Strategic project for national security and I am certain, One way or other, this endeavor will bare fruit one day, IA. Will we all be able to witness that day, Only ALMIGHTY knows!

All those people here who are harping on about lack of Engineers and so forth, I would really like to know WHAT REAL WORLD, HANDS ON experience do you really have since from your posts it is clear to me that you have VERY LIMITED real world experience of filtering out talent, experience and development of inhouse training matrix. I am amazed about you fellows keep emphasizing on PhD, and Masters qualifications. These are good qualifications to have but are NOT 'mandatory' for a successful project or a specific job function.

I am saying this to you not to lecture you but to share my real life experience of developing a team with particular skill sets and specializations. I am listing below the core to my success in dealing with my issues.

-Commitment
-Resource Plan
-Training matrix development. After a though review process to identify areas of inhouse training, external training and people and organisations that can provide specific training. Compulsory Extensive Hand-on training.
-Evaluation Process for the trained staff to ensure that you developed quality personnel.
-Continuous review and improvements.

I hired electricians, HVAC technicians, controls technician and so on. After going though the program, and within one year of hand-Ons, I was able to develop quality personnel who could stand their grounds against any external 'consultant engineer'. By end of year-2, they could discuss the existing designs and what can be done to improve them. By the end of year-3, they could hold their ground against "Chartered Engineers"!

The key here was me - the ALL KNOWING (person with key body of knowledge related to the project/task). One person started all this. So give me a handful of ALL KNOWING people in PAF and PAC, and I can give you 4,000 trained engineers under 7 years. Its all about Commitment, it is all about trusting the right people and giving them opportunities to prosper and show their true capabilities. And unfortunately all this is non-existent in Pakistan.

bros...the concerns we're expressing isn't whether we're capable or not of doing this project. We inherently are, just as anyone else is. We're all actually worried about the shaky resolve our decision-makers! Be it laziness, lack of vision, lack of patience, etc, we're worried that AHQ's going to crack just when things are catching on!

We just saw the Army sign onto the VT4 even though it has AK2 under development. Let's be real, that money going into VT4 is coming by trading in the future, so we'll be back in the Army Forum asking, "why aren't we building more than 11 AK2s a year!?"

The PAF is pretty much at the same point right now.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

I am smelling a lot of pessimism in the air in context of progress on Azm. Just to put things back in prespective, let's revisit what PAF said when the project was launched.

"PAC Kamra, established back in 1971 as a repair and overhaul facility for imported aircraft and later under-license production of aircraft and avionics systems. Even though it has grown in size to cater for more types and number of platforms, including ground radars, PAC still remains dependant on foreign OEMs due to lack of in-house design and development capability. This severely limits its capability to independently support PAF operations and have any worthwhile global presence.

Air Staff vision of Aviation City Kamra is all about changing this paradigm by establishing design and development institutes and bringing in academic institutes for creating a sustainable R&D ecosystem that will enable the Pakistani aviation industry to provide indigenous solutions to PAF, sister services and civil aviation, and facilitating it to become a global player.

The office of DG AvRID (Director General Aviation Research Innovation & Development) has been established to transform into reality the Air Staff vision as stated above, with the long term goal of developing our own fifth generation fighter aircraft (FGFA). Development of FGFA would be a major national program that would entail massive amount of work; not all of which may possibly be carried out within PAC, or even within Pakistan. Such large scale development requires synergetic efforts from a number of industrial (public & private) and academic organizations to fulfill the enormous task. These efforts by themselves will enable development of technologies that will find applications in a number of other systems. The guiding motto will be “cooperation within, competition outside”.

https://www.pac.org.pk/avrid-introduction

1. Blue Text:Realization by PAF about where PAC is standing.
2. Red Text: Challenge/Mission. Again PAF is cognizant about the scale of this challenge and it is openly stated that not all the work will be possible in Pakistan (even if we combined all naitional efforts). And this is reality every one knows.
3. Green Text: If AZM gets treatment similar to our nuclear/ missile program, I see hope and for us that's the only way forward to keep it running, away from red-tapes while seeking/taking help from wherever and whenever possible and to make that happen biggest asset will be unconditional political will.

We are far from perfect as society but we are not without good people if they are allowed to perform. We have shown the world. As for Flight Control System, it is my understanding that PAC has realized from very onset that creating human resource and knowledge base for such complex system lies in that areas which has been identified beyond the possibility within PAC, or even within Pakistan, So they have decided to develop human resources and expertise in other areas and seek foreign cooperation in FCS. Establishment of an entire university campus within Aviation City, is an indication that PAC has realized that HEC universities may fail in producing required number of graduates in specific disciplines. Even if everything goes as per planned, things are going to take time. Remember, it is a long term program. Government must include it in Strategic project for national security and I am certain, One way or other, this endeavor will bare fruit one day, IA. Will we all be able to witness that day, Only ALMIGHTY knows!

its extremely expensive undertaking with the demands for technology and knowledge base that are even beyond the capacity of many western countries, Europeans for example are looking for partnerships for their own versions of 5th/ 6th generation planes.

so Pakistan might have a concept and eagerness to fulfill its own version of a 6th generation plane Taylor made to its specific doctrine which it can fulfill through partnership with Chinese and Turkish aviation industry. lets be realistic here that no matter how much we want, we not only lack the resources but also don't have the access to the technology and the professional manpower to even put this project beyond the concept.
we would need to seek every possible technical and technological expertise from a friendly country that is better than us and is willing to share such technology that is compatible with our project and help us to build up our own in house teach of experts and the infrastructure by middle of this century.

 

[Armchair]

The saddest part isn't even that, it's the one where they haven't even figured how to practically pay for Chinese/American equipment because they don't understand how the monetary system works! Cue: more loans, more IMF, more foreign ownership of Pakistani resources/industries, etc.




bros...the concerns we're expressing isn't whether we're capable or not of doing this project. We inherently are, just as anyone else is. We're all actually worried about the shaky resolve our decision-makers! Be it laziness, lack of vision, lack of patience, etc, we're worried that AHQ's going to crack just when things are catching on!

We just saw the Army sign onto the VT4 even though it has AK2 under development. Let's be real, that money going into VT4 is coming by trading in the future, so we'll be back in the Army Forum asking, "why aren't we building more than 11 AK2s a year!?"

The PAF is pretty much at the same point right now.

I think the tank and SPA were purchases made in a hurry after the escalation last year. The other issue is that as long as strategic defense industries are run by generals, they will not perform. Even Pakistan's nuclear program was run by a technocrat - AQ Khan. We want doctors to manage a hospital because hospitals are about healing patients. Imagine if generals started running hospitals... how mindless would that be? It is equally mindless to have generals manage massive, technical industrial assets. Like HIT, POF, KSEW, etc. Nothing in their training and trade is related to this. Such organizations should be headed by engineers and scientists...

 

[famoj47521]

I think the tank and SPA were purchases made in a hurry after the escalation last year. The other issue is that as long as strategic defense industries are run by generals, they will not perform. Even Pakistan's nuclear program was run by a technocrat - AQ Khan. We want doctors to manage a hospital because hospitals are about healing patients. Imagine if generals started running hospitals... how mindless would that be? It is equally mindless to have generals manage massive, technical industrial assets. Like HIT, POF, KSEW, etc. Nothing in their training and trade is related to this. Such organizations should be headed by engineers and scientists...

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

I think the tank and SPA were purchases made in a hurry after the escalation last year. The other issue is that as long as strategic defense industries are run by generals, they will not perform. Even Pakistan's nuclear program was run by a technocrat - AQ Khan. We want doctors to manage a hospital because hospitals are about healing patients. Imagine if generals started running hospitals... how mindless would that be? It is equally mindless to have generals manage massive, technical industrial assets. Like HIT, POF, KSEW, etc. Nothing in their training and trade is related to this. Such organizations should be headed by engineers and scientists...

It's ironic because it these entities were run by the right professionals, then generals would be able to make much, much more money (as shareholders / board of directors than direct managers). It's something the Turks learned, we haven't.

 

[PakShaheen79]

The saddest part isn't even that, it's the one where they haven't even figured how to practically pay for Chinese/American equipment because they don't understand how the monetary system works! Cue: more loans, more IMF, more foreign ownership of Pakistani resources/industries, etc.




bros...the concerns we're expressing isn't whether we're capable or not of doing this project. We inherently are, just as anyone else is. We're all actually worried about the shaky resolve our decision-makers! Be it laziness, lack of vision, lack of patience, etc, we're worried that AHQ's going to crack just when things are catching on!

We just saw the Army sign onto the VT4 even though it has AK2 under development. Let's be real, that money going into VT4 is coming by trading in the future, so we'll be back in the Army Forum asking, "why aren't we building more than 11 AK2s a year!?"

The PAF is pretty much at the same point right now.

That's why I emphasize on treating Project Azm on par with our nuclear/missile program. Actually, it is far far more strategic than that. All laziness vanished when very survival of nation is at stake. PAF only need to hammer this idea both in Islamabad and Pindi. I am satisfied with Army's understanding about the importance of air power in modern conflicts. All COAS have shown that. Now, PAF must use this understanding to push Azm among top strategic projects running in the country.

VT-4 deal? Has it singed? When?

its extremely expensive undertaking with the demands for technology and knowledge base that are even beyond the capacity of many western countries, Europeans for example are looking for partnerships for their own versions of 5th/ 6th generation planes.

so Pakistan might have a concept and eagerness to fulfill its own version of a 6th generation plane Taylor made to its specific doctrine which it can fulfill through partnership with Chinese and Turkish aviation industry. lets be realistic here that no matter how much we want, we not only lack the resources but also don't have the access to the technology and the professional manpower to even put this project beyond the concept.
we would need to seek every possible technical and technological expertise from a friendly country that is better than us and is willing to share such technology that is compatible with our project and help us to build up our own in house teach of experts and the infrastructure by middle of this century.

Absolutely and that's exactly what i said, we must seek/take help from wherever and whenever it is available. Good thing is that PAF also has acknowledged this much. Building FGFA is one of the many goals here, real thing is to take PAC to next level in pure technical and professional context.

 

[vizier]

Common to all 5th gen. fighters are its aesa radar and stealth. But in my opinion survivability of such an expensive system is as important as these factors. It has to have short take off landing capability from semi prepared strips as in a war scenario airfields are the primary static targets.

Even better is getting airfields out of the equation. Vtol option is out there for decades but it is expensive,bulky and when loaded the plane generally needs a runway to take off making it stovl. One option that comes to my mind is the option to use landing skids instead of a conventional landing gear as was in the case of ww2 fighters like Me 163. Actually it is not so far fetched considering some cold war examples like below.

At least both versions conventional landing gear and this type of landing system should be available. So the question is how this can be possible with large inlets of modern jet aircraft. I think usage of fod blocker screens like the below mig 29s gives a solution. When the plane takes of lands the inlets are closed and engine takes air from above the fuselage. Only thing needed is replacing landing gear with landing skids and the plane can land on any flattened surface without requiring an airfield. This would be much cheaper than vtol option and ensures much higher survivability on a prolonged conflict where airfields are partially or fully out of function.

Engine gets air from above the fuselage during landing and take off.

Replace conventional landing gear with landing skids for below picture to get the idea. The skids will need to be replaced often and taking off will require a dolly but if possible there are high advantages of landing almost anywhere and keeping away from enemy survaillance.

 

[Deino]

Common to all 5th gen. fighters are its aesa radar and stealth. But in my opinion survivability of such an expensive system is as important as these factors. It has to have short take off landing capability from semi prepared strips as in a war scenario airfields are the primary static targets.

Even better is getting airfields out of the equation. Vtol option is out there for decades but it is expensive,bulky and when loaded the plane generally needs a runway to take off making it stovl. One option that comes to my mind is the option to use landing skids instead of a conventional landing gear as was in the case of ww2 fighters like Me 163. Actually it is not so far fetched considering some cold war examples like below.

View attachment 631320




View attachment 631323


At least both versions conventional landing gear and this type of landing system should be available. So the question is how this can be possible with large inlets of modern jet aircraft. I think usage of fod blocker screens like the below mig 29s gives a solution. When the plane takes of lands the inlets are closed and engine takes air from above the fuselage. Only thing needed is replacing landing gear with landing skids and the plane can land on any flattened surface without requiring an airfield. This would be much cheaper than vtol option and ensures much higher survivability on a prolonged conflict where airfields are partially or fully out of function.

Engine gets air from above the fuselage during landing and take off.
View attachment 631326

Replace conventional landing gear with landing skids for below picture to get the idea. The skids will need to be replaced often and taking off will require a dolly but if possible there are high advantages of landing almost anywhere and keeping away from enemy survaillance.

View attachment 631327

Pardon, but can we stick to reality?? Did you ever consider what landing a 5th generation fighter landing on skids would make to the structure?

Forget it, plain and simple.

 

[vizier]

Pardon, but can we stick to reality?? Did you ever consider what landing a 5th generation fighter landing on skids would make to the structure?

Forget it, plain and simple.

If skid is directly connected to its structure yes it is not possible but a retractable skid with a good suspension system can be possible. Also the landing zone is not rocky terrain but should be a grass strip. There are design challanges I agree. bottom part of the airframe should be shielded from rocks losing stealth from that aspect. At least semi-frontal stealth planes has the potential to use this option.

 

[Armchair]

I personally don't think that Project Azm is a "stealth ambition" project.
I personally don't think that Project Azm should be a "stealth ambition" project.
It should rather be a Pakistani air superiority aircraft that has some stealthy features.
It should be a half-way point between the Eurofighter and the J-10, aerodynamically
It should focus on using lasers, DIRCM, having mini AAMs that can shoot incoming LRAAMs
It should follow the KISS principle, just like JF-17
This is what 6th generation means to me.

 

[MastanKhan]

I personally don't think that Project Azm is a "stealth ambition" project.
I personally don't think that Project Azm should be a "stealth ambition" project.
It should rather be a Pakistani air superiority aircraft that has some stealthy features.
It should be a half-way point between the Eurofighter and the J-10, aerodynamically
It should focus on using lasers, DIRCM, having mini AAMs that can shoot incoming LRAAMs
It should follow the KISS principle, just like JF-17
This is what 6th generation means to me.

Hi,

So you think that project azm is 6th gen program---???

 

[The Accountant]

I personally don't think that Project Azm is a "stealth ambition" project.
I personally don't think that Project Azm should be a "stealth ambition" project.
It should rather be a Pakistani air superiority aircraft that has some stealthy features.
It should be a half-way point between the Eurofighter and the J-10, aerodynamically
It should focus on using lasers, DIRCM, having mini AAMs that can shoot incoming LRAAMs
It should follow the KISS principle, just like JF-17
This is what 6th generation means to me.

With absence of advance aviation industry the above wish list is a recipe of failure. Its better to go for proven technologies only. 6th generation technology are still at development stage even for USA, China and Europe so its better to focus on 3 things:

1. Stealth.
2. data sensor fusion.
3. integration of all assets in such a way that one aircraft can use weapons of another aircraft.

 

[Armchair]

Hi,

So you think that project azm is 6th gen program---???

I don't think anyone should follow the US into an F-35 or an F-22. This invariably makes anything looking beyond those concepts "6th gen". Even if such a solution for Pakistan doesn't overmatch any of these fighters.

A lot of 4th gen fighters don't have the capabilities inherent in some 3rd gen platforms. For example, speed. Or fuel efficiency in certain flight profiles. This didn't make them any less than the 3rd gen and did make them 4th gen. In similar vein...

 

[Shabi1]

I personally don't think that Project Azm is a "stealth ambition" project.
I personally don't think that Project Azm should be a "stealth ambition" project.
It should rather be a Pakistani air superiority aircraft that has some stealthy features.
It should be a half-way point between the Eurofighter and the J-10, aerodynamically
It should focus on using lasers, DIRCM, having mini AAMs that can shoot incoming LRAAMs
It should follow the KISS principle, just like JF-17
This is what 6th generation means to me.

One of the outlines given for Project Azm by ACM is the ability to integrate future directed energy weapons. This means it will have the necessary surplus power needed for such systems integration once they are available. So PAF has a capability like DIRCM or anti missile active system in mind.

 

[musaji]

https://quwa.org/2020/05/10/havelsan-to-assist-with-tf-x-next-generation-fighter/

HAVELSAN TO ASSIST WITH TF-X NEXT-GENERATION FIGHTER

Turkish defence electronics manufacturer Havelsan signed an agreement with Turkey’s Presidency of the Defense Industries (SSB) to participate in the TF-X, the country’s next-generation fighter.

The Chairman of the SSB, İsmail Demir, said that Havelsan will work with the main contractor of the TF-X, Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI). Havelsan will bring its expertise on training, simulators and other fields to the table to develop various inputs for the TF-X.

Havelsan’s general manager, Ahmet Hamdi Atalay, said that the company was forming a team for the TF-X.

İsmail Demir said that the TF-X is ongoing, though the Turkish government and the TF-X’s contractors had to implement measures to manage the coronavirus pandemic.

Currently, Turkey is aiming to build the first prototype of the TF-X by 2023 and, in turn, carry out the first test flight of the aircraft in 2025. The first TF-X prototype will reportedly fly with two General Electric F110 turbofan engines (which may place the TF-X in a heavier category than the FC-31 and KF-X).

In addition, Turkey is aiming to fly the TF-X with an indigenous turbofan engine (currently managed by the newly established TR Motor) by 2029.

Turkey is also hoping to build a consortium supporting the TF-X with multiple countries. TAI reached out to Malaysia, while İsmail Demir said that the SSB was in talks with Pakistan, Azerbaijan and Qatar.

The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) Chief of Air Staff (CAS), Air Chief Marshal (ACM) Mujahid Anwar Khan, stated that the PAF is amenable to partnering with other countries for its own next-generation fighter needs. But to-date, the PAF has not yet signed any agreements to that effect, be it with Turkey or China.

For the PAF, a key requirement for its next-generation fighter – especially as a partnership or consortium – is that it be “ITAR-free,” i.e., not include any critical US components.

Thus, it is unlikely the TF-X will gain any traction with the PAF until there is a clear idea of the progress of TR Motor’s engine program. Until then, the PAF is likely predisposed to either folding its program with a Chinese solution, or to continue with its own design, but use Chinese engines and other critical inputs.