Featured Project Azm: Pakistan's Ambitious Quest to Develop 5th Generation Military Technologies.

[Blacklight]

That CAD Job is grade 12 LOL. Its a joke.
Had a look at them. Those Design Engineers are at max FYP level jobs. CAD + FEM/CFD

Here is a suggestion I did not give, and I would NEVER recommend anyone doing it. BUT if it it was me, I would not sign any contracts, and claim that I want to see what the job is all about. Then go down there and check out the org. See what it as all about, MAYBE something would strike my fancy, if not, just walk away.

EDIT: Advantage with growing Org's is you can sometimes see a niche where you fit in, that HR might be missing. OR HOD might see the potential in you, and create a position for you.

 

[JamD]

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Want to bet this eventually ends up as Faziya Housing Society at some point?

All of this is lack of having qualified people at the project head - the JF worked because of the Chinese guiding hand, in this case they look to be fumbling around without actual SMEs and Project management. Why? Because they want military and not civilians in charge who may be able to guide this better.

My hope is that we get a Turkish guiding hand (danda) this time. We make good subordinates I think. A colonial hangover perhaps.

 

[Iron Shrappenel]

My hope is that we get a Turkish guiding hand (danda) this time. We make good subordinates I think. A colonial hangover perhaps.

I fear we'll make the Turks like us as well... Certain part of us has rubbed off on the Chinese too...

 

[Goenitz]

@Blacklight @SQ8 @M.AsfandYar
post 3 and 20

How to increase Pakistanis' induction to Marie Curie scholarship

Pakistanis & Marie Curie in 07 Years from 2014 to 2020 Dear all, as you know Marie Curie is one of the Highest Paid & Highly Prestigious Scholarship for PhD & Post-Doctoral Studies in Europe. Pakistanis secured (242 only) Marie Curie in 07 Years (2014 to 2020). Now, we have been trying and...

defence.pk

repeat:

We should just focus on few things. Achieving total self reliance is a myth. Even branded bread maker cannot produce, wheat, salt, yeast etc by itself. Not to mention the machines which it uses.
So PAF should pick 1-2 things and just focus on that like engine, EW, A2A, Radar, etc.

We must need a robust automobile industry with R&D and industrial collaboration. The faculties involved in car making are the same as in the aircraft (a tier difference). Whether its production line, aerodynamics, engine controls, engine components resistance to; wear and tear, temperature, pressure. Then ergonomics, metallurgy, ECUs, glass manufacturing, etc

Anyway, I think PAF should concentrate on small to big engines for drones, cruise missiles, and then aircraft. Plus own EW components. Else I believe it is an unattainable goal to make an entire aircraft.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

My hope is that we get a Turkish guiding hand (danda) this time. We make good subordinates I think. A colonial hangover perhaps.

Our fauji leaders need a serious, serious lesson in humility in order for our R&D to move forward.

If we do sign onto the TFX, I don't think TAI will let PAC touch the program. They'll likely tell the PAF to either divest a part of PAC or set-up a joint-subsidiary with TAI so that the latter has direct control in the organization. This helps TAI because it can conduct ToT while still keeping its IP within its grip, even though production work could occur in Pakistan.

But it also helps us as we will finally have a capable R&D entity to absorb and cultivate local talent. Remember, TAI itself started out as a joint-subsidiary between Turkey and the US industry. So, if things are done correctly, Pakistan might have its own multi-billion-dollar aerospace company by the end of the TFX. So, any hope of our own loyal wingman drone, UCAV, etc, would emerge from this TAI/PAC offshoot.

I fear we'll make the Turks like us as well... Certain part of us has rubbed off on the Chinese too...

The Turks were like us, they just grew out of it in the 1990s and 2000s.

 

[JamD]

@Blacklight @SQ8 @M.AsfandYar
We should just focus on few things. Achieving total self reliance is a myth. Even branded bread maker cannot produce, wheat, salt, yeast etc by itself. Not to mention the machines which it uses.
So PAF should pick 1-2 things and just focus on that like engine, EW, A2A, Radar, etc.

Agreed 200%. I mean look at the job descriptions, they are all over the place. No direction. Pick one thing, get good at it. I struggle to say what Pakistani aerospace industry is good at.

Our fauji leaders need a serious, serious lesson in humility in order for our R&D to move forward.

Heard this on the latest Pakistonomy podcast and I'm paraphrasing:
Pakistani institutions work great under crises. For example how well the NCOC has worked for the COVID crises and how MOFA is working day and night on the Afghan crisis. When things go back to day-to-day, our institutions go back to their day-to-day, which is doing nothing.

I think even the nuclear program worked because there was a crises of survival.

If we do sign onto the TFX, I don't think TAI will let PAC touch the program.

Good.. Phew..lol

They'll likely tell the PAF to either divest a part of PAC or set-up a joint-subsidiary with TAI so that the latter has direct control in the organization. This helps TAI because it can conduct ToT while still keeping its IP within its grip, even though production work could occur in Pakistan.

That's the ideal deal for Pakistan in my opinion, and what I meant by Turkish danda.

But it also helps us as we will finally have a capable R&D entity to absorb and cultivate local talent. Remember, TAI itself started out as a joint-subsidiary between Turkey and the US industry. So, if things are done correctly, Pakistan might have its own multi-billion-dollar aerospace company by the end of the TFX. So, any hope of our own loyal wingman drone, UCAV, etc, would emerge from this TAI/PAC offshoot.

It'll be better than the Chinese danda which didn't build any R&D capability. Hopefully, this danda builds some of that. To START an aerospace industry we need somewhere where talented individuals can be retained. That's step 0 and what Pakistan struggles with really badly. Hopefully, TAI can give us an aerospace nursery

 

[Goenitz]

My hope is that we get a Turkish guiding hand (danda) this time

We don't have anthropological experts. Otherwise, govt can easily analyse that we are conformist/patriarchal society. So, we work best when under pressure. Dr Hussain (IPRI guy) recent interview on PIA/FIA/FO services during Kabul evacuation shows the same. That under one hour, visa processes were completed for thousands of people.

 

[Iron Shrappenel]

@Blacklight @SQ8 @M.AsfandYar
post 3 and 20

How to increase Pakistanis' induction to Marie Curie scholarship

Pakistanis & Marie Curie in 07 Years from 2014 to 2020 Dear all, as you know Marie Curie is one of the Highest Paid & Highly Prestigious Scholarship for PhD & Post-Doctoral Studies in Europe. Pakistanis secured (242 only) Marie Curie in 07 Years (2014 to 2020). Now, we have been trying and...

defence.pk

repeat:

We should just focus on few things. Achieving total self reliance is a myth. Even branded bread maker cannot produce, wheat, salt, yeast etc by itself. Not to mention the machines which it uses.
So PAF should pick 1-2 things and just focus on that like engine, EW, A2A, Radar, etc.

We must need a robust automobile industry with R&D and industrial collaboration. The faculties involved in car making are the same as in the aircraft (a tier difference). Whether its production line, aerodynamics, engine controls, engine components resistance to; wear and tear, temperature, pressure. Then ergonomics, metallurgy, ECUs, glass manufacturing, etc

Anyway, I think PAF should concentrate on small to big engines for drones, cruise missiles, and then aircraft. Plus own EW components. Else I believe it is an unattainable goal to make an entire aircraft.

We can if we bring in the private sector...... But all is connected to reforms in other institutions such as Lands and records, Judiciary (especially ), auditing etc....

 

[Blacklight]

To START an aerospace industry we need somewhere where talented individuals can be retained. That's step 0 and what Pakistan struggles with really badly.

You beat me to it. One only has to look at, where the engineers who worked on MALE, are right now.

 

[SQ8]

Agreed 200%. I mean look at the job descriptions, they are all over the place. No direction. Pick one thing, get good at it. I struggle to say what Pakistani aerospace industry is good at.

Heard this on the latest Pakistonomy podcast and I'm paraphrasing:
Pakistani institutions work great under crises. For example how well the NCOC has worked for the COVID crises and how MOFA is working day and night on the Afghan crisis. When things go back to day-to-day, our institutions go back to their day-to-day, which is doing nothing.

I think even the nuclear program worked because there was a crises of survival.


Good.. Phew..lol


That's the ideal deal for Pakistan in my opinion, and what I meant by Turkish danda.


It'll be better than the Chinese danda which didn't build any R&D capability. Hopefully, this danda builds some of that. To START an aerospace industry we need somewhere where talented individuals can be retained. That's step 0 and what Pakistan struggles with really badly. Hopefully, TAI can give us an aerospace nursery

Imagine if that brilliance in crisis could apply to daily behavior . I remember finishing up all my code by 12pm - testing it and restesting it. Then asking for what’s next on the task lisand my supervisor telling me - “Koi baat nahin yaar.. kuch aur kar lo, koi course kar rahe ho tu usko parh lo ya FB waghaira”

That was one of many cues of goodbye Pakistan right there.
On the flipside, good firms in the US will have supervisors checking your work and if good providing next direction or ancillary work. After all, they pay you and want their money’s work.

The AZM project wasn’t a grand undertaking - it is much like the Tejas being mismanaged and the eventual result is looking to be the same based on the inputs here.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Imagine if that brilliance in crisis could apply to daily behavior . I remember finishing up all my code by 12pm - testing it and restesting it. Then asking for what’s next on the task lisand my supervisor telling me - “Koi baat nahin yaar.. kuch aur kar lo, koi course kar rahe ho tu usko parh lo ya FB waghaira”

That was one of many cues of goodbye Pakistan right there.
On the flipside, good firms in the US will have supervisors checking your work and if good providing next direction or ancillary work. After all, they pay you and want their money’s work.

The AZM project wasn’t a grand undertaking - it is much like the Tejas being mismanaged and the eventual result is looking to be the same based on the inputs here.

Yea, but while the Tejas itself was mismanaged, the supporting inputs were each successful. The Indians learned how to develop flight control systems, composite materials, air-to-air missiles, air-to-surface munitions, weapons integration, radar development, avionics development, etc. The 'parent' project (Tejas) wasn't managed as well as it could have been, but the 'child' projects all did well, and it's now just a matter of finding a better 'parent.' Though TEDBF and AMCA are both under HAL, I think the Indians figured that if they hand responsibility to different groups within HAL, one of them is bound to succeed as it's a matter of leveraging the relatively mature child elements.

Our problem is that we had good project management for the JF-17, but the entire tech stack was developed in China. Once the PMO retired, we basically had nothing to work with (and it's starting to seem that we may rely on Turkey's project management too). IMO, the nuclear program succeeded because the R&D base was already established and functioning (via Atoms for Peace and other initiatives). ZAB just set it towards a particular direction, and the rest is history. We did not develop the R&D base (at any level) for aerospace.

 

[Goenitz]

To START an aerospace industry we need somewhere where talented individuals can be retained. That's step 0 and what Pakistan struggles with really badly. Hopefully, TAI can give us an aerospace nursery

That is another tragedy. Both job and perks are not enough for highly qualified individuals.
IMHO the most important point is that we mustn't be out of technological loop, even if we are not making aircraft. So, govt must facilitate the graduate to study/work abroad. Get expertise and experience there. At least they get trained that way. Then, when Pak has money, they can attract and retain 5-10% of that lot, which otherwise get wasted in office jobs in Pakistan. As we don't have money and expert to train our people to western level standard.
BTW, that Dr Hussain also said, "If you want to change an institution, change its HR"

We can if we bring in the private sector

Sure. Pvt sector is profit and solution oriented so they can do better job. But no pvt sector is rich enough to invest in making aircraft components. They can help in designing phase etc.

 

[sal29]

Yea, but while the Tejas itself was mismanaged, the supporting inputs were each successful. The Indians learned how to develop flight control systems, composite materials, air-to-air missiles, air-to-surface munitions, weapons integration, radar development, avionics development, etc. The 'parent' project (Tejas) wasn't managed as well as it could have been, but the 'child' projects all did well, and it's now just a matter of finding a better 'parent.' Though TEDBF and AMCA are both under HAL, I think the Indians figured that if they hand responsibility to different groups within HAL, one of them is bound to succeed as it's a matter of leveraging the relatively mature child elements.

Your assessment is spot on. I hope some strategic thinkers in military establishment will realize this and act accordingly.

Here in PDF we talk a lot about the problems we are facing in development (both military and civilian) but no one one comes up with an effective solution. I want to ask everyone here how we as private citizen can come up with a solution to solve this dilemma. How can we create an effective private consortium to solve military hardware development issues for sake of national security.

 

[Iron Shrappenel]

Imagine if that brilliance in crisis could apply to daily behavior . I remember finishing up all my code by 12pm - testing it and restesting it. Then asking for what’s next on the task lisand my supervisor telling me - “Koi baat nahin yaar.. kuch aur kar lo, koi course kar rahe ho tu usko parh lo ya FB waghaira”

That was one of many cues of goodbye Pakistan right there.
On the flipside, good firms in the US will have supervisors checking your work and if good providing next direction or ancillary work. After all, they pay you and want their money’s work.

The AZM project wasn’t a grand undertaking - it is much like the Tejas being mismanaged and the eventual result is looking to be the same based on the inputs here.

AZM was definitely an ambitious project considering what PAC had achieved with JF-17 and a right step... The problems that have occurred are due to lack of realization that it's not necessary that the average officer can do everything desired of him... There is a reason that there are professional hirings and out sourcing of work... The officer has a limited time to achieve his/her goal which is directly connected to his her promotion.... R&D work isn't something directly in relation with a period of time... There are delays, shortcomings and sometimes there are breakthroughs. You can't judge one project with another but that is exactly what the average officer does.. He/She is result oriented where the objective is a good ACR at the end of term by senior and in the long-term a promotion.. This is also a reason why projects have seen demise resulting in either a ToT with nothing learnt or import of final product. Lack of trust for indigenous solution also adds fuel to the fire. All in all the only solution I think is the separation of research center from PAC or formation of a new aerospace research center... An officer can run a production line efficiently but R&D is out of his ball game ( and so is buying land )

Sure. Pvt sector is profit and solution oriented so they can do better job. But no pvt sector is rich enough to invest in making aircraft components. They can help in designing phase etc.

Govt will need to stimulate through tax rebates and other incentives... If they can't build the parts maybe they can assemble them... Letting go of worker class to solely concentrate on R&D is another approach... These would free up million per year in terms of housing, pensions etc... That capital could be used hire researchers and other professionals

 

[SQ8]

AZM was definitely an ambitious project considering what PAC had achieved with JF-17 and a right step... The problems that have occurred are due to lack of realization that it's not necessary that the average officer can do everything desired of him... There is a reason that there are professional hirings and out sourcing of work... The officer has a limited time to achieve his/her goal which is directly connected to his her promotion.... R&D work isn't something directly in relation with a period of time... There are delays, shortcomings and sometimes there are breakthroughs. You can't judge one project with another but that is exactly what the average officer does.. He/She is result oriented where the objective is a good ACR at the end of term by senior and in the long-term a promotion.. This is also a reason why projects have seen demise resulting in either a ToT with nothing learnt or import of final product. Lack of trust for indigenous solution also adds fuel to the fire. All in all the only solution I think is the separation of research center from PAC or formation of a new aerospace research center... An officer can run a production line efficiently but R&D is out of his ball game ( and so is buying land )

Govt will need to stimulate through tax rebates and other incentives... If they can't build the parts maybe they can assemble them... Letting go of worker class to solely concentrate on R&D is another approach... These would free up million per year in terms of housing, pensions etc... That capital could be used hire researchers and other professionals

Unfortunately, this attitude doesn’t look to chanhe because those wanting change are considered black sheep and eventually leave but there are more than enough unemployed “yes-sir”graduates(less ambitious is probably the better term) looking to fill these positions. The work they do will also reflect the same.