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How to increase Pakistanis' induction to Marie Curie scholarship

Goenitz

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Pakistanis & Marie Curie in 07 Years from 2014 to 2020

Dear all, as you know Marie Curie is one of the Highest Paid & Highly Prestigious Scholarship for PhD & Post-Doctoral Studies in Europe. Pakistanis secured (242 only) Marie Curie in 07 Years (2014 to 2020).

Now, we have been trying and looking at this situation, we are planning to start more efforts to increase Pakistani concentration in it for the next 07 years approved funding of Marie Curie from year 2021 to 2027. We need you suggestions in comments also in this regards



By Waqar Baig

Remember Iran secured more seats per capita. It can be due to their research environment or due to EU tilt to induct more Iranian so to bring a soft influence in Iran with time.

But normally, the scholarship is given to academically driven students. So any conspiracy theory is not that convincing.


Your suggestions are needed that what should Pak do??

@Imran Khan @MastanKhan @SQ8 @Slav Defence @jaibi @JamD (jamshaid dasti :D) @Baibars_1260 @peagle @khansaheeb


1610740442756.png
 
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Goenitz

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What I can guess at the moment:
lack of awareness and people don't get the information
the effort we put in writing our proposal, CV and application
lack of motivation as they don't have a society/elders/group who is constantly pushing them to keep pursuing

Then may be bad grades, lack of facilities like downloading good paper to write scientific proposal, etc, writing skills (use grammarly), etc

Lastly, getting a PhD is not a month job. Once you have made a decision, it may take 1+ years (average) to get a PhD. So self-motivation, patience and determination are required.
 

Goenitz

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@925boy
@WebMaster @Horus
The scholarship network is a good fb page working endlessly to guide people to pursue higher education in Europe.. its admin is Waqar baig. I think PDF should include some education forum, and add waqar baig as a PDF member.
I think if he and his associate can join PDF then a different route will be opened. Like they can get the idea which countries/universities are important for country's defence point of view.

Is it possible that the AZM team or education city team can have a meeting with them and discuss how Pak can train our engineers/students better for AZM or other defence needs? He may have also foreign links like researchers working in industry and academia which can be helpful. Also where to send students for a specific program such as for control system engineering, Lulea University is good.

P.S. I don't know waqar baig personally though
 
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JamD

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I can't possibly speak for everyone but for me it was certainly lack of awareness. I was the gold-medalist of my batch and the only option officially told to us by IST was a scholarship to China that I was seriously considering applying to. I only heard of scholarships to US by word of mouth of a professor. Universities do a terrible job at keeping track of and informing their students of scholarship opportunities. At least that's what I saw in my personal experience.
 

Goenitz

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I can't possibly speak for everyone but for me it was certainly lack of awareness. I was the gold-medalist of my batch and the only option officially told to us by IST was a scholarship to China that I was seriously considering applying to. I only heard of scholarships to US by word of mouth of a professor. Universities do a terrible job at keeping track of and informing their students of scholarship opportunities. At least that's what I saw in my personal experience.
Thanx man. In our case we totally shut US and UK options due to expenses. As none of us believed that with bad grades we could achieve any scholarship. So we opted for Sweden/Italy/Germany.
However, since my O-Level I was aware of that Germany offers good education very economically. In fact I tried also to get college admission (higher secondary) in Germany back in 2003. But yes clearly it is awareness. As when I finished my college in Pak (2004), I only knew UET, and from a word of mouth I came to know about NUST, GIK and IST.
 

Baibars_1260

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Thanx man. In our case we totally shut US and UK options due to expenses. As none of us believed that with bad grades we could achieve any scholarship. So we opted for Sweden/Italy/Germany.
However, since my O-Level I was aware of that Germany offers good education very economically. In fact I tried also to get college admission (higher secondary) in Germany back in 2003. But yes clearly it is awareness. As when I finished my college in Pak (2004), I only knew UET, and from a word of mouth I came to know about NUST, GIK and IST.
There are certain practical steps if we follow the examples taken by China and India:

1. Securing international scholarships cannot be left to the efforts of, and merits of , individual students alone. Both China and India know this, and have taken steps to address the issue.

2. The objective of securing the maximum number of PhD scholarships is targeted at least a year in advance by voluntary or state owned counseling and coaching organizations.

3. India follows both a voluntary or paid counseling/ coaching program. The voluntary counseling program is far more successful.
The voluntary counseling programs are managed by serving and retired academics around universities, both off and on campus. Students who show promise early in school and college are identified, and selected for coaching at least one to one and half years in advance at their Masters Level, and are guided by mentors into meeting the metrics for that specific scholarship. Each University prides itself on how many international PhD scholarships it can secure. Serving professors cannot devote enough attention to this effort, which is why retired professors play a major role. Retired academics working closely with their serving colleagues ensure that the conditions are met, which primarily means that thesis or practicums are genuine and not a "cut and paste" .
90% of the candidates attempting a PhD or completing their Masters are doing so merely as a formality to meet the conditions to secure a University lectureship job, and are least interested in fundamental research. There is extreme nepotism and manipulation here which will not go down well for international scholarships Which is why the counseling academia sifts the genuine candidates who are interested in research from the lectureship aspirants.
The paid counseling agencies/ organizations mainly help with the paper work and have a panel of consultants ( retired academics) to guide aspirants. These counseling agencies are obviously accessed by the second grade aspirants from universities who have not been successful with the voluntary counseling schemes.
Foreign trained PhD scientists also need a motivation to return home to work on something better than a mere lectureship. India has a state funded Council for Scientific and Industrial Research aa well as private sector funded organizations such as the Tata Institute of Fundamental Research to absorb some of the talent.

4. China is far more organized due to it's state owned educational system. Like India, it has an intensive counseling program targeting international scholarships. The difference with India is, that students are far more closely monitored and mentored. The counseling programs are state funded with full time academics managing the students with specific targets on how many scholarships they can secure. Like India, China has a state funded Academy of Sciences but there are also numerous independent fundamental research institutes to absorb and employ the scientific talent returning home.

5. Ultimately it comes down to a selfless passion for a patriotic cause.
A retired Indian professor mentoring a PhD candidate gains very little or usually nothing financially. Any feelings of nepotism such as "why not my children first" are in the background. The patriotic duty of developing a pool of scientific talent is uppermost. Only very few academics have this mindset, but there are a sufficient number to make a difference.
In China the patriotic duty of academia is also ensured by a "stick". Professors must meet or exceed their targets in grooming enough Master's students for international scholarships or else they loose credibility and come up for criticism. In China the scholarships are not viewed as a passport for individuals to leave China and settle abroad. The scholarships are meant to train a batches of scientific talent that will return to their nation with enhanced knowledge.
Which is why even though India almost matches China in international scholarships it gains very little because 90% of the PhD students remain outside India acquiring residency, jobs, and citizenship in those countries.

6. Pakistan should follow both the Chinese state funded counseling and Indian voluntary counseling model. Ultimately it comes down to selflessness and passion for the nation. Securing international scholarships is difficult on individual brilliance alone. Leaving talented Pakistan students to fend for themselves against such organized competition is not an option.
 
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Goenitz

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90% of the candidates attempting a PhD or completing their Masters are doing so merely as a formality to meet the conditions to secure a University lectureship job, and are least interested in fundamental research.
I agree that like an art, we need patronage for our scientific institutes and counselling institute. Otherwise we cannot guide our students, especially when on average every higher education student is from middle class.

You said truly that we go for higher education as a mere step forward to previous study. First, we don't know that which institutes to apply, the second which I can recall is that our students don;t know what research is. I think I know now after I spend 1 year in literature review of my PhD. I still may not know as good as a student who was familiar with it in his graduation. Good point.

@JamD bro, did you know how to proceed in a research in BSc?
 

JamD

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@JamD bro, did you know how to proceed in a research in BSc?
Absolutely not. I really really wanted to do research and I basically did research on my own. My advisor was little help but they didn't know any better and I just chose them to "stay out of my way". I thought I was doing research but I was fumbling around as any final year student with no guidance would. In hindsight I could have done SO MUCH MORE had I had a tiny bit of guidance.

On the plus side I hear there are many more PhD faculty at IST who have actually done research so things aren't as bad as they used to be (I hope).
 

pakpride00090

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There are certain practical steps if we follow the examples taken by China and India:

1. Securing international scholarships cannot be left to the efforts of, and merits of , individual students alone. Both China and India know this, and have taken steps to address the issue.

2. The objective of securing the maximum number of PhD scholarships is targeted at least a year in advance by voluntary or state owned counseling and coaching organizations.

3. India follows both a voluntary or paid counseling/ coaching program. The voluntary counseling program is far more successful.
The voluntary counseling programs are managed by serving and retired academics around universities, both off and on campus. Students who show promise early in school and college are identified, and selected for coaching at least one to one and half years in advance at their Masters Level, and are guided by mentors into meeting the metrics for that specific scholarship. Each University prides itself on how many international PhD scholarships it can secure. Serving professors cannot devote enough attention to this effort, which is why retired professors play a major role. Retired academics working closely with their serving colleagues ensure that the conditions are met, which primarily means that thesis or practicums are genuine and not a "cut and paste" .
90% of the candidates attempting a PhD or completing their Masters are doing so merely as a formality to meet the conditions to secure a University lectureship job, and are least interested in fundamental research. There is extreme nepotism and manipulation here which will not go down well for international scholarships Which is why the counseling academia sifts the genuine candidates who are interested in research from the lectureship aspirants.
The paid counseling agencies/ organizations mainly help with the paper work and have a panel of consultants ( retired academics) to guide aspirants. These counseling agencies are obviously accessed by the second grade aspirants from universities who have not been successful with the voluntary counseling schemes.
Foreign trained PhD scientists also need a motivation to return home to work on something better than a mere lectureship. India has a state funded Council for Scientific and Industrial Research aa well as private sector funded organizations such as the Tata Institute of Fundamental Research to absorb some of the talent.

4. China is far more organized due to it's state owned educational system. Like India, it has an intensive counseling program targeting international scholarships. The difference with India is, that students are far more closely monitored and mentored. The counseling programs are state funded with full time academics managing the students with specific targets on how many scholarships they can secure. Like India, China has a state funded Academy of Sciences but there are also numerous independent fundamental research institutes to absorb and employ the scientific talent returning home.

5. Ultimately it comes down to a selfless passion for a patriotic cause.
A retired Indian professor mentoring a PhD candidate gains very little or usually nothing financially. Any feelings of nepotism such as "why not my children first" are in the background. The patriotic duty of developing a pool of scientific talent is uppermost. Only very few academics have this mindset, but there are a sufficient number to make a difference.
In China the patriotic duty of academia is also ensured by a "stick". Professors must meet or exceed their targets in grooming enough Master's students for international scholarships or else they loose credibility and come up for criticism. In China the scholarships are not viewed as a passport for individuals to leave China and settle abroad. The scholarships are meant to train a batches of scientific talent that will return to their nation with enhanced knowledge.
Which is why even though India almost matches China in international scholarships it gains very little because 90% of the PhD students remain outside India acquiring residency, jobs, and citizenship in those countries.

6. Pakistan should follow both the Chinese state funded counseling and Indian voluntary counseling model. Ultimately it comes down to selflessness and passion for the nation. Securing international scholarships is difficult on individual brilliance alone. Leaving talented Pakistan students to fend for themselves against such organized competition is not an option.
Very good post .. Must be positively rated.
 

Goenitz

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Absolutely not. I really really wanted to do research and I basically did research on my own. My advisor was little help but they didn't know any better and I just chose them to "stay out of my way". I thought I was doing research but I was fumbling around as any final year student with no guidance would. In hindsight I could have done SO MUCH MORE had I had a tiny bit of guidance.

On the plus side I hear there are many more PhD faculty at IST who have actually done research so things aren't as bad as they used to be (I hope).
ahem... ahem...
As we did final year project in group, so my colleague did that. I participated in last 1.5 month. basically it was replicating an already done design by ourselves and not true research. Then it included our own observation.

Then we fudged too :P but mainly because nobody knew what is the issue. Our internal adviser said on the first day that he cannot guide us. Our external adviser said he couldn't find the error. So we had to fudged the data.
 

JamD

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ahem... ahem...
As we did final year project in group, so my colleague did that. I participated in last 1.5 month. basically it was replicating an already done design by ourselves and not true research. Then it included our own observation.

Then we fudged too :P but mainly because nobody knew what is the issue. Our internal adviser said on the first day that he cannot guide us. Our external adviser said he couldn't find the error. So we had to fudged the data.
A very common story lol
 

Goenitz

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So far I have gathered these points (briefly)
1. This work needs (govt/public) patronage to conduct seminars/workshops in universities to aware them about the opportunities besides social awareness by members.

2. Generally our students are not familiar with the research. We normally do final year projects in groups, and that is normally replication of old work. I agree that for graduation level, this may be sufficient as they learn scientific application, so similar to an internship (bloom taxonomy). But still our BSc projects need some level of research. On top of it, most graduation level research is plagiarised. As an introspection, anyone can analyse that how many universities he knew after his college? I just knew UET and GIK.

3. So crux of the matter is:
Our students need an early familiarisation with Research (not after BSc). Mainly our graduates seek MSc/PhD as a continuation of study.
As we don't know how to do that and our Prof sometimes don't know either. One way is to make it compulsory for staff to introduce research and foreign opportunities to students. Like here in UK, there is always pressure on staff to publish papers for promotion/or to continue work even.

4. Then we have to convince universities/research institutes of benefits of higher education (HE). PAF is making an education city I guess. I think a group meeting to convince them for opening a department is necessary, where FSc/Bsc students on merit are inducted, and get trained for a year. The curriculum includes: a programming language, language of the HE country, and how to do research (workshops or like PGCert). Student may get a monthly stipend too like cadets have but without a bond.

So it can benefit Pak in long run as:
a. Pool of researchers/workforce is created abroad and they send remittance to Pak.
b. A few thousands skill labour remittance may overwhelm of million's remittance of Gulf unskilled labour.
c. Contacts/PR development for suppliers, research work, etc for our local industry.
d. Political, social, academic influence in the host country.
e. Some researchers will come back so it is a long investment like tree plantation.

5. Students don't know how to write a good research proposal, make a CV and introduction letter. However, there is enough guidance online for it. Second thing is mock interview or dedicated counselling where someone can check the documents and find relevant institutes. I think w/o a proper funding it cannot be done.
Thirdly, students must be convinced that getting a PhD is a tedious journey. Students should have self-motivation, patience, consistency and determination as it may take +1 year to find one. So they and their family must be ready for it.
 

Baibars_1260

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Note that voluntary mentoring is as important.
A simple notice pinned to the notice board of a post graduate faculty in a university with
a helpline number or chat line messaging site will help enormously,
The government cannot do much.
All the students are asking for is time from the volunteers. Time is precious!
More than money 😊
 

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