Featured Project Azm: Pakistan's Ambitious Quest to Develop 5th Generation Military Technologies.

[VCheng]

Unfortunately, this attitude doesn’t look to chanhe because those wanting change are considered black sheep and eventually leave but there are more than enough unemployed “yes-sir”graduates(less ambitious is probably the better term) looking to fill these positions. The work they do will also reflect the same.

Is that why I notice a change in your flags?!

 

[SQ8]

Yea, but while the Tejas itself was mismanaged, the supporting inputs were each successful. The Indians learned how to develop flight control systems, composite materials, air-to-air missiles, air-to-surface munitions, weapons integration, radar development, avionics development, etc. The 'parent' project (Tejas) wasn't managed as well as it could have been, but the 'child' projects all did well, and it's now just a matter of finding a better 'parent.' Though TEDBF and AMCA are both under HAL, I think the Indians figured that if they hand responsibility to different groups within HAL, one of them is bound to succeed as it's a matter of leveraging the relatively mature child elements

Our problem is that we had good project management for the JF-17, but the entire tech stack was developed in China. Once the PMO retired, we basically had nothing to work with (and it's starting to seem that we may rely on Turkey's project management too). IMO, the nuclear program succeeded because the R&D base was already established and functioning (via Atoms for Peace and other initiatives). ZAB just set it towards a particular direction, and the rest is history. We did not develop the R&D base (at any level) for aerospace.

Which is why I keep stating - overconfidence and self aggrandizing is all that is keeping the Indians from wiping the floor with the Pakistani military’s faces on many fronts.

That is really the blessing in disguise and may it never go away.

The Shaheen series was developed by nuclear scientists and not aerospace engineers. They literally went to the local library to pick out books on rocketry and learnt the ropes with Chinese assistance.
Which is also why while the Pakistani missiles are good for now they are about to be hopelessly outclassed by the Indians because there isn’t any actual inherent knowledge. I am not stating that the Indians are culturally superior in this aspect by a large margin - but just by preponderance of population difference even if they have 1/2 the percentage of honest people that would still mean twice the number Pakistan has.

Is that why I notice a change in your flags?!

No, I just never bothered.

 

[JamD]

The Shaheen series was developed by nuclear scientists and not aerospace engineers. They literally went to the local library to pick out books on rocketry and learnt the ropes with Chinese assistance.

That sort of explains a peculiarity that I had seen often. A particular KRL guy with degrees in chemical engineering (coal refinement something), leading liquid rocket fuel engine programs while working on welding programs.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Which is why I keep stating - overconfidence and self aggrandizing is all that is keeping the Indians from wiping the floor with the Pakistani military’s faces on many fronts.

That is really the blessing in disguise and may it never go away.

The Shaheen series was developed by nuclear scientists and not aerospace engineers. They literally went to the local library to pick out books on rocketry and learnt the ropes with Chinese assistance.
Which is also why while the Pakistani missiles are good for now they are about to be hopelessly outclassed by the Indians because there isn’t any actual inherent knowledge. I am not stating that the Indians are culturally superior in this aspect by a large margin - but just by preponderance of population difference even if they have 1/2 the percentage of honest people that would still mean twice the number Pakistan has.

No, I just never bothered.

I'm okay with throwing R&D to the curb if we correctly manage our economy so that we can bankroll the imports. Unfortunately, whatever administrative constraints the military is facing, they pale in comparison to the circus on the political end of the spectrum. The culture thinks the money is all just there, so just import the car or the fighter jet, economics and industry be damned. Defence takes a huge portion of our spending, but we need that spending to somehow stimulate the economy and enable long-term growth (R&D). Otherwise, our defence will suffer.

 

[JamD]

Yea, but while the Tejas itself was mismanaged, the supporting inputs were each successful. The Indians learned how to develop flight control systems, composite materials, air-to-air missiles, air-to-surface munitions, weapons integration, radar development, avionics development, etc. The 'parent' project (Tejas) wasn't managed as well as it could have been, but the 'child' projects all did well, and it's now just a matter of finding a better 'parent.' Though TEDBF and AMCA are both under HAL, I think the Indians figured that if they hand responsibility to different groups within HAL, one of them is bound to succeed as it's a matter of leveraging the relatively mature child elements.

I sometimes get honest to God panic attacks thinking about that

AZM was definitely an ambitious project considering what PAC had achieved with JF-17 and a right step...

I like to think the JF17 program as PAF learning how to MANUFACTURE a 4th gen jet airframe and assemble some avionics. Anything in the design sphere that was done by Pakistanis was on a small scale and not institutionalized so basically wasted.

The problems that have occurred are due to lack of realization that it's not necessary that the average officer can do everything desired of him... There is a reason that there are professional hirings and out sourcing of work... The officer has a limited time to achieve his/her goal which is directly connected to his her promotion.... R&D work isn't something directly in relation with a period of time... There are delays, shortcomings and sometimes there are breakthroughs. You can't judge one project with another but that is exactly what the average officer does.. He/She is result oriented where the objective is a good ACR at the end of term by senior and in the long-term a promotion.. This is also a reason why projects have seen demise resulting in either a ToT with nothing learnt or import of final product. Lack of trust for indigenous solution also adds fuel to the fire. All in all the only solution I think is the separation of research center from PAC or formation of a new aerospace research center... An officer can run a production line efficiently but R&D is out of his ball game ( and so is buying land )

What you are alluding to, and what I have written about a lot here is that military officer is the exact opposite of a research engineer. Being a military officer is entirely antithetical to the idea of being a researcher. Of course I mean the military officer from PAF (and not USAF people in AFOSR for example who are career researchers). PAF, being an air force, has engineers that have spent their lives maintaining, and to some extent overhauling and manufacturing jets. This does not qualify you to become a designer of jets.

If Bala Denter got up one day and said I'm going to design a car, you'd call him crazy. But PAF is doing the same and nobody bats an eye. That's the problem. To most Pakistanis what PAF does at PAC is the same as what Boeing does in Seattle. It is NOT! And the PAF has started to believe the same. Unfortunately, ExACM Sohail Aman is one of these people - not taking away anything from the man just criticizing one aspect of his vision. The desire to have your own design for an FGFA is admirable and definitely not impossible for Pakistan. However, the way PAF thinks it can do so is just like Bala Denter going "main garhi banaoonga".

We need to start working from the ground up. Bala denter needs to get a job in Honda first. Learn the ropes. Rise to a managerial position. Start his own company making automotive parts to supply Honda. Then slowly expand his operation. Reinvest profits into R&D and hire experts in automotive DESIGN (NOT other bala denters). I hope you can follow the analogy.

Govt will need to stimulate through tax rebates and other incentives... If they can't build the parts maybe they can assemble them... Letting go of worker class to solely concentrate on R&D is another approach... These would free up million per year in terms of housing, pensions etc... That capital could be used hire researchers and other professionals

That's a very long term game that I don't expect us to play because of the lack of appetite for long-term things.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

I sometimes get honest to God panic attacks thinking about that



I like to think the JF17 program as PAF learning how to MANUFACTURE a 4th gen jet airframe and assemble some avionics. Anything in the design sphere that was done by Pakistanis was on a small scale and not institutionalized so basically wasted.


What you are alluding to, and what I have written about a lot here is that military officer is the exact opposite of a research engineer. Being a military officer is entirely antithetical to the idea of being a researcher. Of course I mean the military officer from PAF (and not USAF people in AFOSR for example who are career researchers). PAF, being an air force, has engineers that have spent their lives maintaining, and to some extent overhauling and manufacturing jets. This does not qualify you to become a designer of jets.

If Bala Denter got up one day and said I'm going to design a car, you'd call him crazy. But PAF is doing the same and nobody bats an eye. That's the problem. To most Pakistanis what PAF does at PAC is the same as what Boeing does in Seattle. It is NOT! And the PAF has started to believe the same. Unfortunately, ExACM Sohail Aman is one of these people - not taking away anything from the man just criticizing one aspect of his vision. The desire to have your own design for an FGFA is admirable and definitely not impossible for Pakistan. However, the way PAF thinks it can do so is just like Bala Denter going "main garhi banaoonga".

We need to start working from the ground up. Bala denter needs to get a job in Honda first. Learn the ropes. Rise to a managerial position. Start his own company making automotive parts to supply Honda. Then slowly expand his operation. Reinvest profits into R&D and hire experts in automotive DESIGN (NOT other bala denters). I hope you can follow the analogy.


That's a very long term game that I don't expect us to play because of the lack of appetite for long-term things.

I think career researchers within the military (i.e., researchers in literal uniform and stripes) could be a solution. However, after AHQ (or GHQ/NHQ) sets the strategic direction and goals, the service would need to leave those officers alone. They would also need to listen to those officers for their requests (e.g., equipment, materials, etc). This may deal with the "bloody civilian" problem as those researchers are no longer civilians. Unfortunately, we now have a different set of problems, i.e., "well why are they getting this and I'm not?" Suddenly, those career researchers are the ones going to China, Turkey, South Africa, etc for work, leaving the 'party guys' out, and the party guys are going to complain.

Seriously, Pakistanis, what the heck man.

 

[sal29]

I sometimes get honest to God panic attacks thinking about that



I like to think the JF17 program as PAF learning how to MANUFACTURE a 4th gen jet airframe and assemble some avionics. Anything in the design sphere that was done by Pakistanis was on a small scale and not institutionalized so basically wasted.


What you are alluding to, and what I have written about a lot here is that military officer is the exact opposite of a research engineer. Being a military officer is entirely antithetical to the idea of being a researcher. Of course I mean the military officer from PAF (and not USAF people in AFOSR for example who are career researchers). PAF, being an air force, has engineers that have spent their lives maintaining, and to some extent overhauling and manufacturing jets. This does not qualify you to become a designer of jets.

If Bala Denter got up one day and said I'm going to design a car, you'd call him crazy. But PAF is doing the same and nobody bats an eye. That's the problem. To most Pakistanis what PAF does at PAC is the same as what Boeing does in Seattle. It is NOT! And the PAF has started to believe the same. Unfortunately, ExACM Sohail Aman is one of these people - not taking away anything from the man just criticizing one aspect of his vision. The desire to have your own design for an FGFA is admirable and definitely not impossible for Pakistan. However, the way PAF thinks it can do so is just like Bala Denter going "main garhi banaoonga".

We need to start working from the ground up. Bala denter needs to get a job in Honda first. Learn the ropes. Rise to a managerial position. Start his own company making automotive parts to supply Honda. Then slowly expand his operation. Reinvest profits into R&D and hire experts in automotive DESIGN (NOT other bala denters). I hope you can follow the analogy.


That's a very long term game that I don't expect us to play because of the lack of appetite for long-term things.

You know this would be the ideal way but unfortunately no time for it now. Maybe we can hone some skills in reverse engineering and build up capabilities that way.

 

[Iron Shrappenel]

. Anything in the design sphere that was done by Pakistanis was on a small scale and not institutionalized so basically wasted.

Azms' aviation city is supposed to be a step in that direction.

We need to start working from the ground up.

You've answered this yourself we don't need to work ground up rather retain what we learn. ( We have done this that's why manufacturing JF-17 wasn't as problematic as it could have been ( mirage rebuilding, K-8, Mushak ).

ExACM Sohail Aman is one of these people - not taking away anything from the man just criticizing one aspect of his vision

Ahh... this is another controversial issue some blame him for self projection rather than institution and even prelaunch of azm... ( Opinion of some PAF officers ).

military officer is the exact opposite of a research engineer. B

Hence peer to peer relationship rather than subordinate- supervisor relationship between researcher and officer. And constant funding for research work..

That's a very long term game that I don't expect us to play because of the lack of appetite for long-term things.

Have patience, PAC was trying to convince an aviation industrial park... Especially when Khakan Abbasi was pm.... They will keep pushing it from time to time.

 

[Iron Shrappenel]

I think career researchers within the military (i.e., researchers in literal uniform and stripes) could be a solution. However, after AHQ (or GHQ/NHQ) sets the strategic direction and goals, the service would need to leave those officers alone. They would also need to listen to those officers for their requests (e.g., equipment, materials, etc).

Somewhat along the lines medical corps ?
maybe even hire researchers later on as in Army education wing ?
( A senior members guidance would be welcomed, someone who has served in the Army/Navy/Airforce )

Suddenly, those career researchers are the ones going to China, Turkey, South Africa, etc for work,

Globalization has resulted in brain drain for alot of countries... Ignorance and short sightedness of the pvt industry is also to blame

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Somewhat along the lines medical corps ?
maybe even hire researchers later on as in Army education wing ?
( A senior members guidance would be welcomed, someone who has served in the Army/Navy/Airforce )

Globalization has resulted in brain drain for alot of countries... Ignorance and short sightedness of the pvt industry is also to blame

Basically. STEM students from eligible universities and programs can apply to become commissioned officers in the 'R&D bureau.' But even though they are technically COs, they operate within the specific rules and culture of the R&D entity. So, the R&D entities are military, but they operate at arm's length from the 'ops' side. The ones in charge of said bureaus should come from within (i.e., senior R&D officers), not from outside. The Chiefs and HQs give the strategic direction, goals, outcomes, etc, but the R&D bureaus literally handle the rest.

The issue I see is that the inherent inequality. The R&D bureaus are (by their nature) going to get the most human resource investment, e.g., the undergrad-level officers will need higher learning for masters and PhDs. Likewise, their pay-grades will go up, and their lifestyles will be a bit different from the rest. The generals who emerge from R&D will be the ones heading up all of those valuable posts at PAC, HIT, KSEW, etc, not the old ops guys from other parts of the military. Eventually, some idiot is going to see a golden goose and shoot it (without realizing why said goose is gold).

It always boils back to the same problem. The wrong people want access to certain posts.

 

[JamD]

Basically. STEM students from eligible universities and programs can apply to become commissioned officers in the...

This, of course, already happens, and has been happening for decades.

in the 'R&D bureau.' But even though they are technically COs, they operate within the specific rules and culture of the R&D entity. So, the R&D entities are military, but they operate at arm's length from the 'ops' side. The ones in charge of said bureaus should come from within (i.e., senior R&D officers), not from outside. The Chiefs and HQs give the strategic direction, goals, outcomes, etc, but the R&D bureaus literally handle the rest.

And that right there is the problem. We take a lot of talent into the forces but then we put them through a life of maintenance overhaul etc. An engineer is only as good as their experience. We have no R&D entities to park our military officers in. Well, we do have SPD organizations, and only a very very small number of officers spend their entire careers there. Most go in and out. And then SPD organizations have their own problems with secrecy and silos so let's not even look to them for solutions on setting up an ecosystem.

The issue I see is that the inherent inequality. The R&D bureaus are (by their nature) going to get the most human resource investment, e.g., the undergrad-level officers will need higher learning for masters and PhDs. Likewise, their pay-grades will go up, and their lifestyles will be a bit different from the rest. The generals who emerge from R&D will be the ones heading up all of those valuable posts at PAC, HIT, KSEW, etc, not the old ops guys from other parts of the military. Eventually, some idiot is going to see a golden goose and shoot it (without realizing why said goose is gold).

It always boils back to the same problem. The wrong people want access to certain posts.

That is EXACTLY what needs to happen. And sadly, that is also exactly why it is so hard for that to happen.

 

[Iron Shrappenel]

Basically. STEM students from eligible universities and programs can apply to become commissioned officers in the 'R&D bureau.' But even though they are technically COs, they operate within the specific rules and culture of the R&D entity. So, the R&D entities are military, but they operate at arm's length from the 'ops' side. The ones in charge of said bureaus should come from within (i.e., senior R&D officers), not from outside. The Chiefs and HQs give the strategic direction, goals, outcomes, etc, but the R&D bureaus literally handle the rest.

The issue I see is that the inherent inequality. The R&D bureaus are (by their nature) going to get the most human resource investment, e.g., the undergrad-level officers will need higher learning for masters and PhDs. Likewise, their pay-grades will go up, and their lifestyles will be a bit different from the rest. The generals who emerge from R&D will be the ones heading up all of those valuable posts at PAC, HIT, KSEW, etc, not the old ops guys from other parts of the military. Eventually, some idiot is going to see a golden goose and shoot it (without realizing why said goose is gold).

It always boils back to the same problem. The wrong people want access to certain posts.

This might be a time intensive route but it will also be the best base for our military industrial complex. Moreover, shifting production to public/private partnerships should also be discussed with commercial aspects as well... This will result in guaranteed funding and not just a capital drain. (Example :-
1:- batteries for future soldier exoskeletons could be used in commerical cars
2:- composite material research could be used in medical fields such as prosthetics....
( Wherever possible ).

 

[Blacklight]

@JamD @Bilal Khan (Quwa) and other PAF lovers at the moment:

Na Chero Hamain Ham Sataye Huwe Hain
Bohat Zakhm Seene Pe Khaye Huwe Hain
Sitam Gar Ho tum, Khoob Pehchante Hain Tumhari Adaon Ko
Ham Jante Hain Daghabaaz Ho Tum

 

[Iron Shrappenel]

@JamD @Bilal Khan (Quwa) and other PAF lovers at the moment:

Na Chero Hamain Ham Sataye Huwe Hain
Bohat Zakhm Seene Pe Khaye Huwe Hain
Sitam Gar Ho tum, Khoob Pehchante Hain Tumhari Adaon Ko
Ham Jante Hain Daghabaaz Ho Tum

Sir un ka sochein jin ko aviation city mein plot alot huay hain

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

This, of course, already happens, and has been happening for decades.


And that right there is the problem. We take a lot of talent into the forces but then we put them through a life of maintenance overhaul etc. An engineer is only as good as their experience. We have no R&D entities to park our military officers in. Well, we do have SPD organizations, and only a very very small number of officers spend their entire careers there. Most go in and out. And then SPD organizations have their own problems with secrecy and silos so let's not even look to them for solutions on setting up an ecosystem.



That is EXACTLY what needs to happen. And sadly, that is also exactly why it is so hard for that to happen.

Lol the Turkish Navy has an in-house R&D bureau. They're designing the MILDEN.

Pakistan: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯