Featured Project Azm: Pakistan's Ambitious Quest to Develop 5th Generation Military Technologies.

[Rana4pak]

It is good as the low end of the PAF fleet but has deficiencies (Jf-17 is underpowered) to be considered be considered a replacement for the F-16's at the hi end of the fleet. It was a good technical stepping stone...but we must attempt the next level.

For jf17 to replace f166we need more powerful engine plus big airframe which we can develop in further blocks eg for 4.5 generation next block of jf17 should be like that

 

[ProudPak]

We are designing for the past. BTT this is developed countries would be 2-3 gens ahead of us. Pace of tech innovation is accelerating. Our end product will be severely challenged by the time it becomes operational. I would have invested the Azam project into the following areas:
Modular approach to develop key technologies.

1) Computer Vision
2) AI engines and edge processing
3) Material sciences (for surfaces)
4) Electro-optical technologies (& countermeasures)
5) Nav/Sat comms suite
6) Autonomous Intelligence Engine & Threat Management
7) EW integration

In a nutshell technologies that will enable me to develop a modern UCAV, as long as I can get some good engine technologies as well as missiles, I would have critical areas developed to enable me to bring together a compelling UCAV platform.

My dear

If you thought that you think professionals in PAF have been sleeping. Remember this is a country that with limiterld resources with Chinese partnership have created a big bang for little bite jf17. The lock 3 is as good as any fighter out there.
Pakistan doesn't do what India does which is make a square wheel. Over a 100 jf17 on active front line duties.
Project azm is massive and not just one aircraft.

 

[TigerOfMysore]

My dear

If you thought that you think professionals in PAF have been sleeping. Remember this is a country that with limiterld resources with Chinese partnership have created a big bang for little bite jf17. The lock 3 is as good as any fighter out there.
Pakistan doesn't do what India does which is make a square wheel. Over a 100 jf17 on active front line duties.
Project azm is massive and not just one aircraft.

I did not say PAF is sleeping. All I am saying in my limited view: my preference would have been to develop modular modern capabilities in areas I identified. I think mastering some of these areas gives us ability to not only enhance our existing fleet, but eventually mate them together with external suppliers to develop a modern UCAV. Manned fighters will likely be phased out in 30 years. UCAVs will dominate the skies, or at a minimum will be complementary to manned flight operations. So my approach would have been more central in that direction. Again who am I to say anything, after all what do I know about applied technologies.

 

[SQ8]

Is that considered medium weight or heavy weight?

That’s a very manufacturer specific debate. Is the F-16 block 60 a light weight or medium weight fighter?
its MTOW is 46000lb MTOW
The Rafale is 52000lb
KF-21 is 52000lbs
The F-35 is 70000lb
The F-15C is 68000lb
The su-34 is 99000lb

Does this put the F-35 as a medium weight fighter? If so then AZM would be a medium weight fighter as well. I suspect that it may end up in the same weight range as the TFX at 60000lbs.

Where does the transition happen from medium to heavy?

At first I was surprised that they were literally copying the design. Then I was like it's kind of typical Pakistani jugarh genius lol. We've never designed a jet from scratch before, it's best to start from something we know works, albeit without knowing the intricate details. Gives you a good starting point in terms of aerodynamics, shaping for stealth, configuration. Might be a good leapfrogging strategy.

But I wonder(and doubt) if there will be any takers for the "we've got a design, please help us make this" pitch they seem to be planning for. The folks at Azm need to go for a scale demonstrator that they build themselves to convince PAF itself and possible foreign takers.

The original YF-23 was destined for a 2+4 so that must be what Azm is going for.

Not exactly - the “design” of trapezoidal wing with butterfly tail has been looked at for the JSF and other types and now is essentially what the Su-59 has. If there is a mathematical formula for what works then it is likely to be copied.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

That’s a very manufacturer specific debate. Is the F-16 block 60 a light weight or medium weight fighter?
its MTOW is 46000lb MTOW
The Rafale is 52000lb
KF-21 is 52000lbs
The F-35 is 70000lb
The F-15C is 68000lb
The su-34 is 99000lb

Does this put the F-35 as a medium weight fighter? If so then AZM would be a medium weight fighter as well. I suspect that it may end up in the same weight range as the TFX at 60000lbs.

Where does the transition happen from medium to heavy?

Not exactly - the “design” of trapezoidal wing with butterfly tail has been looked at for the JSF and other types and now is essentially what the Su-59 has. If there is a mathematical formula for what works then it is likely to be copied.

It's just my opinion, but I tend to do it based on the number of engines and the output of said engines.

So... Eagles, Flankers, Raptors, Su-57s, etc are 'heavies' due to dual 120-130+ kN engines.

Meanwhile, a single-engine fighter with one 120-130+ kN engine is a 'medium' while a dual-engine fighter with 80-98 kN engines is a 'heavy-medium' (Rafale, Typhoon, Super Bug, etc). Finally, a single-engine fighter with one 80-98 kN jet is a 'lightweight' to me.

The one exception to all this is the F-35 as it's actually pretty big MTOW-wise and uses a powerful engine (190 kN with afterburning). I think it's a heavy.

 

[_NOBODY_]

Do you guys see PAF operating two different 5th generation fighters or will PAF operate just one type of 5th generation fighter(AZM)?
@Bilal Khan (Quwa) @SQ8 @JamD

 

[Indos]

That’s a very manufacturer specific debate. Is the F-16 block 60 a light weight or medium weight fighter?
its MTOW is 46000lb MTOW
The Rafale is 52000lb
KF-21 is 52000lbs
The F-35 is 70000lb
The F-15C is 68000lb
The su-34 is 99000lb

Does this put the F-35 as a medium weight fighter? If so then AZM would be a medium weight fighter as well. I suspect that it may end up in the same weight range as the TFX at 60000lbs.

Just little correction :

KF 21 MTOW : 56,400 lb

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[JamD]

Not exactly - the “design” of trapezoidal wing with butterfly tail has been looked at for the JSF and other types and now is essentially what the Su-59 has. If there is a mathematical formula for what works then it is likely to be copied.

That's what I thought too but straight from the horse's mouth: they literally took the YF-23 design and analyzed it later. I bet it was faster.

 

[sharpshooter#]

I suspect the primary initial role of the NGFA is deep-strike (emphasis on payload, RCS reduction).

I think the PAF is approaching this program from the standpoint of, "we can probably get a good air-to-air fighter off-the-shelf, but no one will ever sell us real strike-capable jets." That "good air-to-air fighter" is probably going to be the J-10CE, and I imagine an overall commitment of 90-150 such jets might 'encourage' a Chinese bureau to help develop AZM (plus build some commonality across engine, electronics, etc).

Do You think we are in the financial position of buying 90 to 159 jets ? I don't

Do you guys see PAF operating two different 5th generation fighters or will PAF operate just one type of 5th generation fighter(AZM)?
@Bilal Khan (Quwa) @SQ8 @JamD

I personally think that paf would go for a single medium weight fighter jet . Some say that paf is also exploring further blocks of thunder definitely there would be some major structural changes .

 

[Goenitz]

Theres a lot of good work to be done in Pakistan, but only in the short term. It's career growth where Pakistan gets you. Theres very little growth, and any growth you will see can be undone by some fauji's whim. I have often narrated the story of the member deprived of chairmanship and resigning because some fauji with a bachelors degree and no experience was made chairman. Something that happens on every level and in many places. But this isn't the thread for that sort of thing.

Was it Saddal or someone else too had faced the same.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Do You think we are in the financial position of buying 90 to 159 jets ? I don't

off-the-shelf orders span around 10-15 years, and the payments are spread across that time period too. If the PAF orders an off-the-shelf fighter, it would do so with a plan of getting 90-150 over 10-15 years (as it has for the Mirage, F-16, and JF-17). Finally, the PAF itself said it wanted an off-the-shelf fighter -- i.e., in 2016 to Jane's and again (albeit indirectly) about possibly getting a fighter to plug in any gaps.

ACM Sohail Aman: “Pakistan definitely has to induct new aircraft. We have both Chinese and Russian options.” (to Bol Narratives in April 2017).

ACM Mujahid Anwar Khan: “We have to be aware of modern technologies, and if the acquisition of a new fighter fits into our doctrine then we will try to acquire it. The balance has to be maintained.” (to AFM on April 2020).

 

[ProudPak]

I did not say PAF is sleeping. All I am saying in my limited view: my preference would have been to develop modular modern capabilities in areas I identified. I think mastering some of these areas gives us ability to not only enhance our existing fleet, but eventually mate them together with external suppliers to develop a modern UCAV. Manned fighters will likely be phased out in 30 years. UCAVs will dominate the skies, or at a minimum will be complementary to manned flight operations. So my approach would have been more central in that direction. Again who am I to say anything, after all what do I know about applied technologies.

Actually modular approach was even applied to the jf17. Please look it up. It's nothing new to PAF. The things yiu have mentioned are already there

 

[SQ8]

That's what I thought too but straight from the horse's mouth: they literally took the YF-23 design and analyzed it later. I bet it was faster.

Probably was - and they get comparable stealth to the F-22 from it(if they replicate it and what they learnt from the RAM from the abbotabad crash). The YF-23 had a lower RCS than the YF-22.

 

[JamD]

Was it Saddal or someone else too had faced the same.

Yup him

 

[TigerOfMysore]

Actually modular approach was even applied to the jf17. Please look it up. It's nothing new to PAF. The things yiu have mentioned are already there

If what you say is accurate then I would be a happy man. Given my limited interaction with the PAF years ago, i will say they have the ability as an institution to build some gems of men. Of all the services they do build more critical thinkers with imagination and vision, with the entrepreneurial engineering mind. Problem then and now is resources (money and focus), enough directional momentum by those "right types" of men over a sustained period of time, and institutional culture. I just hope that shine and luster has not ebbed but increased over time.