Featured Project Azm: Pakistan's Ambitious Quest to Develop 5th Generation Military Technologies.

[CriticalThought]

Just a thought, but wouldn't it be interesting if PAC teamed up with CAC on a single-engine 5th-gen fighter that can do VTOL (if not from the onset, then as a sub-variant)? This way, all the PN would need is a landing platform dock (LPD)-size ship to field a fixed-wing fighter. @Hassan Guy

In relation to need for a solid air defence, BMD, and indigenous expertise in electronics, do we really need such a capability?

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

With predicted growth in influence I'd say such a capability might become necessary.

In relation to need for a solid air defence, BMD, and indigenous expertise in electronics, do we really need such a capability?

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

In relation to need for a solid air defence, BMD, and indigenous expertise in electronics, do we really need such a capability?

If it can be done piggybacking on an existing program, then it's worth considering.

Let's take the PN out of the equation - a STOVL fighter can also be deployed from unprepared air fields on land, perhaps in close proximity to attack helicopters as well. Imagine the ability to pair low-level CAS (attack helicopters) with top cover right from the onset of a combat operation with much less distance as a factor. It could be an interesting system to deploy in the Northern Areas as well, opening up a new section of air fields or potential operating areas (including shifting ones so as to avoid enemy interdiction).

The maritime aspect would just be the bonus on top of that, enabling the PN to deploy a fixed-wing airpower component at a lower cost than a dedicated aircraft carrier. Outside of the F-35 this is unique, so it might entice the PLAN to join from the very beginning, thus also adding to scale and China's interest in developing it.

Again, it doesn't necessarily need to be tied to Project Azm from the onset, but leaving the design capable of it later on might be prudent.

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

It may also add to the export prospects of FGF. A very important point to consider indeed

If it can be done piggybacking on an existing program, then it's worth considering.

Let's take the PN out of the equation - a STOVL fighter can also be deployed from unprepared air fields on land, perhaps in close proximity to attack helicopters as well. Imagine the ability to pair low-level CAS (attack helicopters) with top cover right from the onset of a combat operation with much less distance as a factor. It could be an interesting system to deploy in the Northern Areas as well, opening up a new section of air fields or potential operating areas (including shifting ones so as to avoid enemy interdiction).

The maritime aspect would just be the bonus on top of that, enabling the PN to deploy a fixed-wing airpower component at a lower cost than a dedicated aircraft carrier. Outside of the F-35 this is unique, so it might entice the PLAN to join from the very beginning, thus also adding to scale and China's interest in developing it.

Again, it doesn't necessarily need to be tied to Project Azm from the onset, but leaving the design capable of it later on might be prudent.

 

[Cookie Monster]

Just a thought, but wouldn't it be interesting if PAC teamed up with CAC on a single-engine 5th-gen fighter that can do Short Take-off/Vertical Landing (STOVL)?

It might not be possible from the onset, but perhaps as a sub-variant a few years later?

This way, all the PN would need is a landing platform dock (LPD)-size ship to field a fixed-wing fighter.

If you're going to bother with a new project, you might as well try and get features not available on the market. @Hassan Guy

This might be of interest to the PLAN as well from an amphibious operations standpoint. @wanglaokan

Though I too want the project Azm to be single engined but if PAC teamed up with CAC for this, wouldn't it leave FC31 in limbo. With no funding from the PLA/PLAN and none from PAC...the product will eventually die out.

Ideally I want Pak to have project AZM be single engine 5th gen and also acquire a few squadrons of either FC31 or TFX off the shelf as the twin engine 5th gen to make a F16/F15 like combo.

 

[Hassan Guy]

Just a thought, but wouldn't it be interesting if PAC teamed up with CAC on a single-engine 5th-gen fighter that can do Short Take-off/Vertical Landing (STOVL)?

It might not be possible from the onset, but perhaps as a sub-variant a few years later?

This way, all the PN would need is a landing platform dock (LPD)-size ship to field a fixed-wing fighter.

If you're going to bother with a new project, you might as well try and get features not available on the market. @Hassan Guy

This might be of interest to the PLAN as well from an amphibious operations standpoint. @wanglaokan

I mean I never really though of that considering China is developing EMALS.

I think a VTOL plane based on the JF-17 would be better in terms of cost or at least as a tech demonstrator.

 

[Maxpane]

great idea

 

[CriticalThought]

If it can be done piggybacking on an existing program, then it's worth considering.

Let's take the PN out of the equation - a STOVL fighter can also be deployed from unprepared air fields on land, perhaps in close proximity to attack helicopters as well. Imagine the ability to pair low-level CAS (attack helicopters) with top cover right from the onset of a combat operation with much less distance as a factor. It could be an interesting system to deploy in the Northern Areas as well, opening up a new section of air fields or potential operating areas (including shifting ones so as to avoid enemy interdiction).

The maritime aspect would just be the bonus on top of that, enabling the PN to deploy a fixed-wing airpower component at a lower cost than a dedicated aircraft carrier. Outside of the F-35 this is unique, so it might entice the PLAN to join from the very beginning, thus also adding to scale and China's interest in developing it.

Again, it doesn't necessarily need to be tied to Project Azm from the onset, but leaving the design capable of it later on might be prudent.

Sir, the Americans started back in the 1990s to create a VTOL aircraft. What they have today is so underpowered, there is already a project to create the next gen engine for F-35 that would remove its crippling lack of power. Fantasies of CAS aside, the need for such a system is much less than some other projects. I would prefer investing in 3 squadrons of Su-35. China will have a lot of interesting projects because they are economically and technologically advanced. In the words of a Chinese friend, sending a Rover to the moon doesn't feed anyone, but if you have cash to splurge you have the luxury of doing things for fame. We need to keep our economic and technological realities in mind, and prioritize based on the actual near and long term threats we face.

Also, given how the JF-17 Thunder project has gone, I don't expect Pakistan to suddenly gain the manpower and expertise to create a VTOL engine and aircraft. Probably some people will be sent to China and work under supervision. In order to create a deep indigenous capability, we need to start small and give our own talent a fail friendly space. It makes more sense to acquire the patents for RD-93 and try to produce our own, completely independent stealth aircraft. Otherwise, for the rest of eternity, we will be sending people to China and investing money in foreign projects.

 

[araz]

Sir, the Americans started back in the 1990s to create a VTOL aircraft. What they have today is so underpowered, there is already a project to create the next gen engine for F-35 that would remove its crippling lack of power. Fantasies of CAS aside, the need for such a system is much less than some other projects. I would prefer investing in 3 squadrons of Su-35. China will have a lot of interesting projects because they are economically and technologically advanced. In the words of a Chinese friend, sending a Rover to the moon doesn't feed anyone, but if you have cash to splurge you have the luxury of doing things for fame. We need to keep our economic and technological realities in mind, and prioritize based on the actual near and long term threats we face.

Also, given how the JF-17 Thunder project has gone, I don't expect Pakistan to suddenly gain the manpower and expertise to create a VTOL engine and aircraft. Probably some people will be sent to China and work under supervision. In order to create a deep indigenous capability, we need to start small and give our own talent a fail friendly space. It makes more sense to acquire the patents for RD-93 and try to produce our own, completely independent stealth aircraft. Otherwise, for the rest of eternity, we will be sending people to China and investing money in foreign projects.

A good post. The problem remains one of coinciding interests. I want to mention the Indian efforts with the Kaveri project and inspite of support from all and sundry they did not succeed. There are a lot of hurdles to cross for us to start producing engines even for licence production. However I understand the need to start somewhere. It depends on money as well as effort. We can do the later but without the former we will struggle. We also are decades behind inmetalurgy and have been criminally negligent in not establishing specialized steel plants and introducing post graduation in metallurgy. The Germans in the mid 50s offered to set up steel plants for us. However they wanted smaller units in multople sites. We elected to go big in one site and have suffered and the steel mill is now closed. Bhutto in his ill thought out nationalization destroyed the only private venture to manufacture specialized steel on Pakistan. We have been set back at least 20-30 yrs by that egomaniac.
A

 

[CriticalThought]

A good post. The problem remains one of coinciding interests. I want to mention the Indian efforts with the Kaveri project and inspite of support from all and sundry they did not succeed. There are a lot of hurdles to cross for us to start producing engines even for licence production. However I understand the need to start somewhere. It depends on money as well as effort. We can do the later but without the former we will struggle. We also are decades behind inmetalurgy and have been criminally negligent in not establishing specialized steel plants and introducing post graduation in metallurgy. The Germans in the mid 50s offered to set up steel plants for us. However they wanted smaller units in multople sites. We elected to go big in one site and have suffered and the steel mill is now closed. Bhutto in his ill thought out nationalization destroyed the only private venture to manufacture specialized steel on Pakistan. We have been set back at least 20-30 yrs by that egomaniac.
A

Yes, ZAB was a mixed blessing. People say, "We are here because of XYZ done by Ayub/ZAB/Zia". The reality is, they were giants who have been replaced with maggots like Benazir, Nawaz Sharif, Zardari etc. Everything the former did required a long term consistency of policies. But corruption itself is the undoing of even the best policies in the world.

We do have 'Ittefaq Foundries' today. But when the ex PM and current defacto PM is a known Indian mole, don't expect the country to progress in any field much less metallurgy.

 

[araz]

Yes, ZAB was a mixed blessing. People say, "We are here because of XYZ done by Ayub/ZAB/Zia". The reality is, they were giants who have been replaced with maggots like Benazir, Nawaz Sharif, Zardari etc. Everything the former did required a long term consistency of policies. But corruption itself is the undoing of even the best policies in the world.

We do have 'Ittefaq Foundries' today. But when the ex PM and current defacto PM is a known Indian mole, don't expect the country to progress in any field much less metallurgy.

The giants were actually the maggots. If you think they were not corrupt then you need to relook the history and the effects of some of their policies. The rest are simple leeches. There is no correlation between a foundry and a specialized steel plant. ZAB is/was and remains a traitor and deserved to be hung but not for the crime which got him hung. But then if you hung everyone for crimes doe against this nation you might not have very many trees left without a body hung to it.
A

 

[CriticalThought]

The giants were actually the maggots. If you think they were not corrupt then you need to relook the history and the effects of some of their policies. The rest are simple leeches. There is no correlation between a foundry and a specialized steel plant. ZAB is/was and remains a traitor and deserved to be hung but not for the crime which got him hung. But then if you hung everyone for crimes doe against this nation you might not have very many trees left without a body hung to it.
A

Really, the person who put us on the path of N Bomb is a traitor? I attribute the failures in those years as a clash of huge personalities. If we had been able to unite under the leadership of any one of them, we would be a million light years ahead. And that is our problem: we never unite under able leadership, and then inept leaders take over and destroy the country.

 

[araz]

Really, the person who put us on the path of N Bomb is a traitor? I attribute the failures in those years as a clash of huge personalities. If we had been able to unite under the leadership of any one of them, we would be a million light years ahead. And that is our problem: we never unite under able leadership, and then inept leaders take over and destroy the country.

Bhutto was greatly responsible for the dismemberment of this country. I fully agree the two wings were a nonviable solution and we needed to have a better solutio. However to lay the foundations of we are better here and you are better there and then assign all the blame on Mujeeb was wrong.
Anyways that is not the topic at hand.
A

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

Sir r u from Turky or from Pakistan

From both since I consider myself as a late 19th century Ottoman living in the 21st century!!!!!

 

[malikahmed91279]

I'm really confused about what kind of engine Pakistan will use in their aircraft,
Aircraft is single engine so Pakistan need at least 150KN thrust engine, if we will able to get 'item-30' with thirst of 178KN,it will be awesome news(possibly not)