Featured Project Azm: Pakistan's Ambitious Quest to Develop 5th Generation Military Technologies.

[Silicon0000]

I'm really confused about what kind of engine Pakistan will use in their aircraft,
Aircraft is single engine so Pakistan need at least 150KN thrust engine, if we will able to get 'item-30' with thirst of 178KN,it will be awesome news(possibly not)

It's all depends on single engine or dual engine FGF Pakistan choose. If it's single engine than choices are RD93/33 XX, WS-13 & WS-19. If it's Dual engine than its either WS-10X or WS-15. Things are currently at very beginning stage right now. Most probably PAF will choose mature tech for a modular FGF with upgrades with time as JF-17 model worked Best.

 

[Army research]

It's all depends on single engine or dual engine FGF Pakistan choose. If it's single engine than choices are RD93/33 XX, WS-13 & WS-19. If it's Dual engine than its either WS-10X or WS-15. Things are currently at very beginning stage right now. Most probably PAF will choose mature tech for a modular FGF with upgrades with time as JF-17 model worked Best.

Single engine is an old design, all new planes would be double engine.

 

[Basel]

It's all depends on single engine or dual engine FGF Pakistan choose. If it's single engine than choices are RD93/33 XX, WS-13 & WS-19. If it's Dual engine than its either WS-10X or WS-15. Things are currently at very beginning stage right now. Most probably PAF will choose mature tech for a modular FGF with upgrades with time as JF-17 model worked Best.

EJ-200/230 from UK is also available if Pakistan feel it fit the bill.

 

[Silicon0000]

Single engine is an old design, all new planes would be double engine.

Yup F-35 is old and obsolete

EJ-200/230 from UK is also available if Pakistan feel it fit the bill.

Yes available but chances are less, unless turkey becomes part of this project.

Personally I think WS19 would be better with TOT or license production option. Chances of WS-15 with tot/license is rare.

 

[araz]

. In the words of a Chinese friend, sending a Rover to the moon doesn't feed anyone, but if you have cash to splurge you have the luxury of doing things for fame. We need to keep our economic and technological realities in mind, and prioritize based on the actual near and long term threats we face.

. In order to create a deep indigenous capability, we need to start small and give our own talent a fail friendly space. It makes more sense to acquire the patents for RD-93 and try to produce our own, completely independent stealth aircraft. Otherwise, for the rest of eternity, we will be sending people to China and investing money in foreign projects.

I agree with most of what you have written. However, I think there are benefits in space travelling and it is not just to splash out money.
Firstly it is the technological leap that one takes when you get involved in a project like that. The preparation and acquisition of expertise is a coupe de grace and rather than chest thumping this is what one acquires. If you see where smaller steps have led us to progressively bigger leaps is in Nuclear technology for dual use, from overhauling to manufacturing a fighter plane, from Augusta assembly to warship manufacturing and input of CAD machines in JFT design and manufacturing are all steps in the right direction.
With the JFT we have seen progressive independence to integrate newer hardware from multiple sources to our own Azm project.
A lot of what I have written also responds to the second point you have raised with one proviso.
We are a small nation with limited reserves. We need to co operate with other nations to initiate and execute progressively difficult programmes for in house manufacturing as the financial burden of initiating newer projects is cumbersome. Therefore there will be continuing collaboration with China Turkey Ukraine and other nations to achieve those aims. This is a matter of achieving that threshold beyond which we will venture out with our own projects.
There remains a glut in the international market with equipment being sold and breaking into newer markets is a very difficult process. However we are slowly getting there. There are other facilities which the Chinese can provide like loans which we cannot afford to do just yet. So there is a lot of merit in sticking in mutually symbi9tic relationships with various countries so you are not taken for a ride by one provider.
A

 

[Basel]

Yup F-35 is old and obsolete



Yes available but chances are less, unless turkey becomes part of this project.

Personally I think WS19 would be better with TOT or license production option. Chances of WS-15 with tot/license is rare.

The engine offer from UK is available for JFT so why Turkey's help needed for FGF engine?

 

[Silicon0000]

The engine offer from UK is available for JFT so why Turkey's help needed for FGF engine?

Sorry I won't be able to describe you things clearly due to my poor english, What I mean with Turkey being part of this project is if some how TFX and AZM project combined or work in collaboration than for engine commonality this is possible. Personally in my view, PAF is inclined more towards Chinese options (except for EW & Avionics). Anyway it's just my views, may be PAF will come with a different option.

 

[CriticalThought]

I agree with most of what you have written. However, I think there are benefits in space travelling and it is not just to splash out money.
Firstly it is the technological leap that one takes when you get involved in a project like that. The preparation and acquisition of expertise is a coupe de grace and rather than chest thumping this is what one acquires. If you see where smaller steps have led us to progressively bigger leaps is in Nuclear technology for dual use, from overhauling to manufacturing a fighter plane, from Augusta assembly to warship manufacturing and input of CAD machines in JFT design and manufacturing are all steps in the right direction.
With the JFT we have seen progressive independence to integrate newer hardware from multiple sources to our own Azm project.
A lot of what I have written also responds to the second point you have raised with one proviso.
We are a small nation with limited reserves. We need to co operate with other nations to initiate and execute progressively difficult programmes for in house manufacturing as the financial burden of initiating newer projects is cumbersome. Therefore there will be continuing collaboration with China Turkey Ukraine and other nations to achieve those aims. This is a matter of achieving that threshold beyond which we will venture out with our own projects.
There remains a glut in the international market with equipment being sold and breaking into newer markets is a very difficult process. However we are slowly getting there. There are other facilities which the Chinese can provide like loans which we cannot afford to do just yet. So there is a lot of merit in sticking in mutually symbi9tic relationships with various countries so you are not taken for a ride by one provider.
A

It all comes down to prioritization. What problems are on top and what's the most optimal solution we can find? All other questions can be solved ifvwe have a clear view of these. Per guidelines coming from PAF, priorities seem to be

1. Block 3
2. Fifth gen
3. MALE drones.

My only contention is that it's OK to cut down the scope but make sure the solution is completely indigenous. That means either first version is designed and produced in Pakistan by Pakistani engineers, or the second version.

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

What I think lacking is synergy between tri services. If PAF can also get input from PN this wouod be very helpful because PN also would be needing a few planes. So the both of them can outline a clear path and scale of production.

 

[DJ_Viper]

I mean I never really though of that considering China is developing EMALS.

I think a VTOL plane based on the JF-17 would be better in terms of cost or at least as a tech demonstrator.

EMALS and VTOL are two very different types of engineering and technologies. China is now testing their EMALS. They don't have experience in VTOL. They are just embarking on a journey to build TVC internally. VTOL is a much, much more complex process. May be in 10 years, we'd see a mature VTOL Chinese platform. You couldn't just risk a pilot's life by creating a new VTOL process which was never used before. Years of testing is required before a real jet can even test fly VTOL.

 

[malikahmed91279]

Well I'm sure Pakistan will use 140KN plus engine, so we can have a mediam weight platform

 

[MiG-35-BD]

everybody is guessing so I thought I shoudl try too ........found this CG on a chinese web site ...... seems something similar to yf23 but in single engine platform

View attachment 444959 View attachment 444960 View attachment 444961

This seems to be the general layout which is ideal for PAF. Very simple, low cost and effective design.

The main problem with a 5th gen project Azam is the engine. A WS-15 solves that, and this is possibly the layout chosen by Chengdu for a single engine plane.

Now, a single WS-15 will not allow a very draggy airframe, if performance is not to be compromised and a simple delta gives exactly that. This is demonstrated in the Mirage III and the Mirage-2000, which both have comparatively weaker engines but due to their streamlined simple delta design, achieve excellent speed and range.

Another benefit of the above design is that a smaller wings and smaller V-tail. This is possible because of TVC, which enhances fighter combat, providing additional maneuverability beyond wing control surfaces. In turn, this further lowers drag, increasing range and speed.

What is missing is a good IRST - the most effective anti-stealth device.

 

[Cookie Monster]

This seems to be the general layout which is ideal for PAF. Very simple, low cost and effective design.

The main problem with a 5th gen project Azam is the engine. A WS-15 solves that, and this is possibly the layout chosen by Chengdu for a single engine plane.

Now, a single WS-15 will not allow a very draggy airframe, if performance is not to be compromised and a simple delta gives exactly that. This is demonstrated in the Mirage III and the Mirage-2000, which both have comparatively weaker engines but due to their streamlined simple delta design, achieve excellent speed and range.

Another benefit of the above design is that a smaller wings and smaller V-tail. This is possible because of TVC, which enhances fighter combat, providing additional maneuverability beyond wing control surfaces. In turn, this further lowers drag, increasing range and speed.

What is missing is a good IRST - the most effective anti-stealth device.

While it's highly likely that PAF would want its 5th gen Azm project to be single engine and an air superiority fighter that has excellent maneuverability, I don't think they will go for TVC. Mainly bcuz it's complicated(for maintenance) and costs more in general. Most likely this project Azm is gonna be the 5th gen equivalent of JF17...a fighter that will be acquired in numbers to replace older JF17 blocks and older F16s at first until eventually replacing them all. So they would try to aim to keep the cost down in order to acquire it in numbers. Additionally PAF would probably acquire a few squadrons of twin engine 5th gen jets(like TFX, FC31, etc) and these two will form the high/low mix in the long term.

 

[帅的一匹]

Well I'm sure Pakistan will use 140KN plus engine, so we can have a mediam weight platform

WS10IPE will have about 150KN. It's just a stop gap, WS15 is the one we want.

While it's highly likely that PAF would want its 5th gen Azm project to be single engine and an air superiority fighter that has excellent maneuverability, I don't think they will go for TVC. Mainly bcuz it's complicated(for maintenance) and costs more in general. Most likely this project Azm is gonna be the 5th gen equivalent of JF17...a fighter that will be acquired in numbers to replace older JF17 blocks and older F16s at first until eventually replacing them all. So they would try to aim to keep the cost down in order to acquire it in numbers. Additionally PAF would probably acquire a few squadrons of twin engine 5th gen jets(like TFX, FC31, etc) and these two will form the high/low mix in the long term.

I think AZM should be the point of the spear.

 

[Cookie Monster]

I think AZM should be the point of the spear.

Azm wouldn't be a big platform like the J20. China has massive resources economically speaking. Additionally China has a huge airspace to cover and many adversaries(with sizeable airforces of their own). So China needs high end fighter jets in numbers and it can afford them. Pak on the other hand has only IAF to tackle and a relatively smaller airspace. Pak also aims for a credible minimum deterrence and has a limited budget with which to compete against a larger foe. This leads me to think that Pakistan will go for a high/low approach. The high end would most likely be an off the shelf purchase from either China or Turkey(to avoid sanctions). A few squadrons of J20 would be nice(if possible). Whereas Azm would most likely be a single engine, light/medium(most likely medium) sized 5th gen fighter jet. This would make it relatively cheaper to acquire and maintain as compared to something like J20 or TFX etc. So most likely Azm would not be the tip of the spear.