Professionals please analyse Tejas and JF-17 on Airshow performance

[Paksanity]

I am opening this thread as a request to qualified aviation professionals only so that they can analyse and break it down for us mortals how do the two compare only and purely on the basis of their recent performances in Bahrain and Paris Airshows. We would like to hear from you what do you make of different manoeuvres and what do they indicate of aircraft's ability in your professional opinions.

For those who are not professionals in this field, you are desired to ask questions to learn and increase your knowledge. Your general comments and opinions don't mean crap. This thread is NOT about the following.

1. Which one is more indigenous than other
2. Which one stands where in its development/ upgrade path (we are discussing just how they are at the moment)
3. Which of the pilots are more daring or proficient (it's about aircraft not pilots)
4. Why JF-17 did not participate in Bahrain

In short, there are enough threads to troll. Go troll their as much as you like and leave some space for serious work in this thread.

I start with some simple questions

1) How would you compare Thrust/ Weight ratio of the two based on these two shows?
2) How do you compare ability to turn faster and/or tighter of the two?
3) Do you see a relation between choice of manoeuvres and design/ performance of aircraft? In what areas you see one fighter edging ahead of the other (based on their performance in these two Airshows)

@gambit I see no better person to start with.
@Taygibay @Frenchpilot @Vauban @Manticore @jhungary @Khafee @Mil Spec

 

[dadeechi]

I am opening this thread as a request to qualified aviation professionals only so that they can analyse and break it down for us mortals how do the two compare only and purely on the basis of their recent performances in Bahrain and Paris Airshows. We would like to hear from you what do you make of different manoeuvres and what do they indicate of aircraft's ability in your professional opinions.

For those who are not professionals in this field, you are desired to ask questions to learn and increase your knowledge. Your general comments and opinions don't mean crap. This thread is NOT about the following.

1. Which one is more indigenous than other
2. Which one stands where in its development/ upgrade path (we are discussing just how they are at the moment)
3. Which of the pilots are more daring or proficient (it's about aircraft not pilots)
4. Why JF-17 did not participate in Bahrain

In short, there are enough threads to troll. Go troll their as much as you like and leave some space for serious work in this thread.

I start with some simple questions

1) How would you compare Thrust/ Weight ratio of the two based on these two shows?
2) How do you compare ability to turn faster and/or tighter of the two?
3) Do you see a relation between choice of manoeuvres and design/ performance of aircraft? In what areas you see one fighter edging ahead of the other (based on their performance in these two Airshows)

@gambit I see no better person to start with.

Thanks for opening this thread.

Is it a safe assumption that these type of shows could only throw some light on the WVR abilities. How much of this agility would be useful in the modern BVR warfare?

@PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy @Vauban @knight11 @Nihonjin1051 @mike2000 is back

 

[Paksanity]

Thanks for opening this thread.

Is it a safe assumption that these type of shows could only throw some light on the WVR abilities. How much of this agility would be useful in the modern BVR warfare?

@PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy @Vauban @knight11 @Nihonjin1051 @mike2000 is back

May be but I will wait for the words of professionals.

 

[dadeechi]

May be but I will wait for the words of professionals.

Specifically I would like to know from the experts if this agility would be helpful against as "fire-and-forget" air-to-air missiles.

 

[Aepsilons]

She's perfect for LCA role in support of anti-ground operations from mobile artillery units. Potential function for air reconnaissance and attack aircraft in support of infantry. Possibility for naval air reconnaissance as well for the IN.

 

[NP-complete]

As far as flying is concerned i think its all about turning rate. Rest is all electronics and weapons.
But yeah, better ask a pilot.

 

[JamD]

Couple of things I noticed:
1) The JF-17 is flown in a much cleaner configuration than the Tejas. The Tejas is essentially carrying two missiles (Smokewinders). This adds a significant drag penalty as its the missile plus the pylon. The JF-17 was cleaner. This should give JF-17 a SLIGHT advantage.

2) The Tejas does get airbone much sooner than the JF-17. This means it has a lower stall velocity (expected). Obviously then it needs to pick up additional speed to do a pull up because it needs to gain kinetic energy. I would wager its better to pick up speed in the air (like the tejas) than to pick it up on the ground (like the jf17) because ground causes much much more resistance. But someone will have to measure the videos for actual differences in times from brake release to pull up.

3) The Tejas seems to make a tighter turn than the JF-17. Good for Tejas. BUT it bleeds more energy than the JF-17. So in the short term this is good for tejas. In the long term this is good for JF-17. Would come down to pilot skill.

4) The Tejas pilots seem to be taking it easy on the vertical loops. Maybe because they bleed so much speed in the preceeding tight turns and they need to regain some.

5) Readers should keep in mind aircraft are flown in airshows with ridiculous configurations (clean, very little fuel). In the field it would obviously perform worse.

 

[Paksanity]

pointless thread, the show is designed to impress visually.

This thread is for aviation professionals to opine. Are you a professional in aviation field sir? If you are not, please do not comment for the sake of it.

 

[alimobin memon]

Both jets are good. I believe tejas has some advantages like excellent general electric engine. I am Pakistani but I would rather rely on general electric then kilmov engines. Furthermore the radar technology on Indian is Israeli and Pakistan is Chinese which is basically derivative of Israeli technology and Russian altogether hybrid. However if we talk about aerial displays the jf17 also had rough non exciting initial show performances with tight turns but in Paris airshow everything was improved including the fast take off. Tejas has just started it may be even better in maneuvers than its current airshow debut. Lets give time. I am more happier that the Asians are now designing fighter jets than I care about whether jf17 is good or Tejas. after all now innocent poor countries won't be forced to fly sanction prone jets from super powers.

But honestly I have feeling that Tejas is better in terms of carrying capability as it has more room to carry weapons as well as it might stall lesser than jf17 does. Just IMHO.

And please when analysis be neutral everyone don't favor your country blindly if you are. I would prefer reviews from westerners or Russians here more.

 

[Paksanity]

1. JF-17 kits are supplied to PAC with a russian engine while china has the IP but india has the IP of tejas is fully made in india with american engine and mix of british , israeli , french and russian avionics & weapon systems hence both cant be said fully indigenous

2.for JF-17 every development/upgrade has to be done by china in china while upgrades of Tejas are already done and tested in India and Tejas is already in process of its first upgrade with AESA radar and AESA based EW & ECM suites and the required weight reductions

3.both are good with respect to ability to turn faster or tighter but pilot skills in actual combat do not really matter much with advent of off bore sight WVR missiles (US was amazed with this capabilty of old generation East German & Polish mig29 and its affect in mock combat against F16s) and Tejas with DASH HMDS & Python 5/R73 very high off bore sight capability is way more potent

4.finally JF-17 was not fielded by PAF in BIAS as china had the IP and only china could do it

OMG! Sir I specific stated that the thread is NOT about these points. Please read the line written before these points. I respectfully request you to delete your post. This is exactly the kind of discussion I DO NOT want to have in my thread.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Is it a safe assumption that these type of shows could only throw some light on the WVR abilities. How much of this agility would be useful in the modern BVR warfare?

Specifically I would like to know from the experts if this agility would be helpful against as "fire-and-forget" air-to-air missiles.

It's hard tomodel BVR combat effectively because of all of the variables involved but there is a consenus in the airpower community that these days a "merge" that is BVR engagments turning into WVR engagemetns are more likey than ever and this is why super manouvrability is being emphasises for future generation a/c and today's a/cs.

 

[Dash]

She's perfect for LCA role in support of anti-ground operations from mobile artillery units. Potential function for air reconnaissance and attack aircraft in support of infantry. Possibility for naval air reconnaissance as well for the IN.

You tagged her as a ground support fighter which is somewhat funny coming from you. What exactly point defence mean to you?

 

[JamD]

How do you estimate the energy bleed? To me it looked very sustained as it went through the maneuvres.

Visually mostly. Tends to slow down more after sharp turns. Makes sense too. Pure Deltas can fly at higher alphas at the expense of increase in drag.

 

[Dash]

How do you estimate the energy bleed? To me it looked very sustained as it went through the maneuvres.

That's what I was gonna point out, even after he says Tajas carries two smokewinders, but he says Tejas bleeds more energy while taking sharp turns.

 

[knight11]

Is it a safe assumption that these type of shows could only throw some light on the WVR abilities. How much of this agility would be useful in the modern BVR warfare?

1. The WVR fight is not yet ended due the fact, that WVR missile still existed but have evolved with the time and now we have off boresight, cued to pilot helmet sight like R-73, IRIST, Python-4/5, AIM-9X and Guns are still integrated in the fighter plane.

2. The agility also help you to dodge enemy BVR missiles.

3. Quick change of direction of the nose help in quickly acquire target from its MMR, and fire and turn back to the safer area.

4. Its not the BVR which is the key to the Air superiority, rather its the situation awareness, sensor fussion, AEW EC thats how Israel blew 60-70 Syrian aircraft without a single loss because it had one Hackeye to back them up and not to mentioned its the same python missile which is responsible for most of the kills of the israel not any long range BVR.

5. You always have a limited number of BVR or WVR missile on board, and when they are exhausted, then you have to fight with the guns, no pilot in the world want to indulge in a dog fight, but should be prepare for the worst.