President Zardari announces establishment of army base in Swat

[Xeric]

Military is a profession like any other profession.

Ahan!
Sir, you got to have your basics trimmed actually. Even after such clarification from a unbiased 'civilian' you still consider the military profession equal to just any other job!

It has its highs and it also has risks associated with it.

Care to mention those 'highs'

That is also true for any other profession. Those of us who work with deadly Ebola viruses (for which there is no cure and an agonizing death is almost certain in hours to few days time) in the bio safety level 4 labs also dodge a possible death on daily basis. Those brave souls, the doctors and the nurses who take care of the patients infected with highly contagious bugs also put their lives on the line literally every day. These people on average have an equal chance if not more of dying 'in the line of duty' compared with a military person. I personally know a few of my colleagues who lost their lives while working on these deadly bugs. Of course they don’t put on military uniform and no one talks about them. How would you rank the risk level for a worker working on a high-rise building? Or for that cleaner who enters into the gutters full of toxic hydrogen sulfide?

A painter who hangs himself with ropes and paints any high rise building also risks his life on daily basis, so what?

BTW, how much does these 'life endangering dare-devils' get paid for entering a level 4 lab?

Moreover, you just got stuck on the 'life risking business' an omitted the other associated factors.

Now I must expect another barrage of name calling from my friends who consider our military the Military of Angels.

Yes dear you got that right!
A thankless person like you has to be dealt accordingly. Atleast acknowledge that you are still able to flutter that Flag beneath your avatar because someone's blood and sweat is still keeping it Green!

 

[All-Green]

Please do not read too much into the Sharif Brother's drama of a special force to deal with terrorism...they have not done anything to improve the police force despite having commando trained elite force as well.

1st there is police, then came elite force, then another force called the Muhafiz force...still no result....
You can add 10 more forces to the police but they will remain the same, police is treated as personal force of the politicians and all their best are just detailed as security escorts for VIPs.
These politicians are again presenting excuses and we are buying it...Naraz Sharif is not even condemning the Taliban and always blaming the foreign hands...well then why suggest an anti terrorist force when he is not even willing to admit the terrorists in the first place?

Let us shift focus on the processes and procedures of our police as well, they do not register an FIR despite whatever the chief minister claims.
A subordinate of mine was recently stolen from and it took 5 days to get an FIR registered after calling a favor from the higher ups.
If a child is abducted and no FIR is there and tomorrow the child shows up in another country as a terrorist then tell me what procedure would have been followed by a police who did not even register the FIR?
We all can understand why i gave this particular example...current situation demands that police becomes a law enforcement agency and fast!

I can go on and on but the way i see it we talk about COIN as if it is something special...it is all common sense and PA is the most important asset which we have to use in the short term...in the long term we need a normal police which need not be commando trained against terrorists...just their routine policing will do the trick...if they are given opportunity to do so and checked properly!

 

[Xeric]

As I said earlier, it is all in the mind, all about perception.

No it is not!
Actually it is about your mindset and perception about the military. Actually as i have pointed out many times earlier that your prolonged stay away from the country's soil and your weak grip on your Nation's psychology has made you blind.

Let me try to explain you. (the following arguments encompasses the majority of Pakistanis-not all of them) You and I know that we as a Nation are weak morally and professionally-the most of us. We don’t like to work hard and we waste lots of time. You live in States and can very easily compare the state of affairs. We like short cuts, we like to out-maneuver and take what doesn’t belong to us. The West doesn’t take our doctors capable enough to induct then directly, they don’t take our students unless they don’t get through a certain standard. The way we work in our offices and the way be spend our resources rather I must say waste them while ‘working’ is no where compatible to the West or should I say the “normal working standards”-if you don’t want me to compare us with the Westerns. In short we lag behind, and the only reason behind is that we DON’T WORK! Actually we are INEFFICIENT! When I say inefficient I mean that if you would take an hour to complete some task at hand, we as a Nation would complete that task in days. Now there several reasons that can be attributed to this inefficiency; One, our ‘time pass attitude’, Second, our inept and old aged SYSTEM. So the net result is that we progress slow not because we are not capable but because we don’t work, put in the required amount of effort and dedicate ourselves to our profession. Yes a few (like YOU) who had worked, put in MORE THAN the required effort and had dedicated himself to the profession had EXCELLED! But most of us have just made it to the bare minimum. And the reasons are obvious.

There are many examples in front of us. The railways; name me a country where the national railways is in loss, even our neighboring india is much ahead of us in this regards. What to talk about laying new tracks we had been unable to even maintain the ones ‘gifted’ us by Gora Saab. Do you think this lapse was due to non availability of funds or difficult terrain, NO, it was because of corruption and our “time Tapao attitude. WAPDA is an another example. Pakistan Post can again be another classic example. You cant even apply I repeat APPLY (what to talk about getting it) a weapon license without paying some shyt to the peon. You cant get a driving licenses that easily, you cant even get your duplicate Matric Sanad from the board without paying. So all this is not due because of the ‘difficult’ job those people are doing, but just because we don’t want to work and burn are blood. Now this doesn’t only holds guud for the ‘lowerly’ designated people, but also for the Officers’ Cadre all around.

Now having said that it had become a tradition to look upto the Army to make certain things happen as atleast you, I and many have to agree that our military still have some shame left in them. Monitoring duties, Censes, kicking institutions like WAPDA, railways, bashing the civilian bureaucracy etc etc. THOUGH I PERSONALLY CONSIDER IT WRONG AS THIS WOULD ENTAIL MAKING THE MILITARY WORK AT DOUBLE RATE AND LET THESE INSTITUTIONS RELAX, AND I DON’T WANT TO BE A PARTY TO SUCH A MEASURE.

Now let us consider that the military has been tasked to monitor WAPDA (still considering that it is WRONG-let’s just assume it if your bio-chemically engineered brains can accept it for a moment &#61514. Now when for example I am sitting in the office of XEN or DE I would like that I should ATLEAST first complete my todays work and plan tomorrows and then leve my office, but on the other hand my peon/runner/clerk (who are from WAPDA) are in the habit of leaving the office at 11 or at maximum 12 and most of them even don’t like to come on duty, so when I am going to ask them first politely, then strictly and ultimately ‘kick-ly’ to STAY, they ofcourse are going to say BAD of me i.e. the military.

I remember sitting with a relative (a very close one actually when I was once on leave) on Sunday. That dude works in a government department as an Mechanical Engg. Well during the course of our discussion he received a call that some sorta fault has developed in the plant and he is required to be at the main control room to get it fixed. His first question was that my shift is over and today is my rest, where is the D team engg? The reply was that D team engg had an emergency had gone home. Guess what that dude simply refused to come to the office on the plea that it was his rest day and he may think of fixing it on Monday when his day shift would start. And I was surprised! So after some lecturing and ‘sharam dilana’ role by me he ultimately agreed that he would only guide the sub-engg on phone about the problem and if gets fixed, well and guud otherwise Monday would soon come. During his ’15 min’ talk on the phone with that sub-engg he reminded that poor chap that ‘you know its Sunday and I am on rest’ ‘tumhain pata hai meri rest hai’ like 20 times! And literally I was flabbergasted!

I was like WTF! Why cant you just go and fix the damn thing, but it was all in vain. Now as he was not under my domain at that time otherwise he must have gone to fix that fault even on his head and ‘remembered’ me for ever that someone made him do his work! Had that been the case I am sure for the next of his remaining life he would have abused me and called me ‘proud’ and ‘superior’

I remember during monitoring duties I was assisting a karnal saab when he was exercising the commissioner’s authority. We used to solve like 100 cases of small quarrels. We received like more than 100 applications nd we had to sit in the office may be till 9 in the evening. Once the colonel, myself and one of the ACs were having a tea break /chit chat together during a break, so I asked him, sir how much applications are there that you received previously, I mean before the Army came in to monitor? His answer was hmm..may be 70-80! I said OK, so how many of them do you really listen to and solve, and his answer was may be 3-5! And I said what about the remaining and he said ‘bus yaar jo zarori hoti hain daikh laitay hain’. I again asked him why cant he see all of them and his surprising answer was; we are not super humans like yourself! ‘Aap tu dat k kam kar laytya hain hum aisay karain tu sham tak brain hemorrhage hojaye inki batai suntay suntay’ I was a newly promoted Captain then with all my pomp and shine and then I took him to task as my ‘proudiness’ couldn’t bear it anymore. And I am remember him calling me ‘badmash hain ji aap karsaktay hain jo karna chahain aap, ziada kaam kartay hain tu nakhra tu hiongay he’ ia m sure that dude would also had remembered me as ‘proud’ and superior’ fauji!

Ok let’s go deeper into past; I was a kid, may be in my 8th or 9th grade and I happened to be in my village on summer vacations. An uncle of mine worked at a some sorta health center, governmental ofcourse. I never knew it as I always found him in his stupid clinic cum dispensary which was inside his house. He was a well known ‘Doctor’ in our village, though he was just NOT a MBBS doc. Once he took me along on his bike to a place where I came to know that, Gosh! he has a job! After roaming here and there inside that health care unit or whatever it was, he took me to his ‘senior’. There during tea I asked my uncle; aap duty per nahi jatay, kyn? Mujhy tu pata he nhai tha k job be hai apki. And both of them burst into laughter and then the senior ‘informed me that we just come to the office on 1st when we have to get our pays! And my ‘masoom’ reply was ‘tu agar aap nahi atay office to apki jagha kon kaam karta hoga? Poray mahainay chotti karna ache bat tu nahi hai! Ye tu mainy pehlai bar daikha hai! And guess what that ‘senior’ was kinda annoyed….lolzzz.. I am sure had I been in the Army by then he must have considered me a ‘proud’ and superior’ fauji!

Qsaark sir! Have you ever heard of “Railway Bazars”? Ok let me enlighten you, most of the railways employees never went on their duties but instead manned their ‘landa’ and garments shops/thialas outside the railway stations and just used to give hazri on 1st to collect their pays, ofocurse when the Army Vigilance Cells at the Railway Stations must had kicked them inside their offices, they sure had blamed the military of being proud!

So my dear, when any Army personnel would ‘advice’ someone whether within or outside his domain to pay attention to his job or do xyz thing properly so no doubt he would be accused of being proud and rude!

 

[Xeric]

My argument is only that one profession must not be considered superior over others in terms of loyalty and sacrifice.

Oh yes it may be considered. considering superior could not mean considering them super humans or 'Gods', but favoring them, giving them the respect and atleast acknowledging what they do.

You talking about endangering yourself in level 4 labs, but forgot tio mention how much you get paid of it? If money can make people jump over a hundred cars with a bike so can many other 'endanger' their lives for money, but soldiers dont do that. You atleast know that you are well protected before you go inside that lab and the chances of you being contaminated with that virus stuff, though being very much probable, are very less, but a police wala standing at guard somewhere, how much chances does he have that he would eat dinner with his family? Bullet proof jackets and helmets doesnt guarantee that his arm or leg would net be severed in an event of attack.

How many times have you been at 'war' with the virus?

How many times did that virus killed docs like you in numbers at one time?

Let's have a poll; who is going to 'endanger' his live against a virus with the facilities, privileges, and pay rates as you people have and how many would wear a uniform and stand guard somewhere.

i'll give you and many others a million if they are ready to leave their 'normal' happy lives and spend a week at some post in Siachen. Let's see how many volunteer.

Let's forget Siachen as its has become quite usual, let's see how many would wake up next day and would be ready to fight when they have seen their comrades being blown into pieces or their intestines spilled out a night before. How many of you would be ready to do drive on a road knowing well that the very next moment you mighty step on a mine. It takes something more than 'bio-chemicals' to face a bullet. Ever found yourself sprayed with tracer rounds; a few passing right above your head, another few right besides your arms and you listening to their air slashing sounds and even actually 'watching' them pass you an wondering when a non-tracer would get your brains!

Please dont compare virus labs with the infantry men charging towards the enemy during an attack who know 101% that only a few hundred meters short of enemy defences the ground would be laden with anti-personnel and anti-tank mines! and soon they themselves or the ones on their right or left would either blow up, take off or shed into pieces just a moment from now when they reach the home end of that mine-field!!

It takes more than a virus lab to face the enemy knowing fully well that their artillery would be pounding exactly the area they have to run across like hell with not an inch spared.

It takes more then chemicals to come out of an bunker to give corrections to artillery fire when you know that you no more can observe own artillery fire to correct it from inside the bunker, making yourself prone to enemy's prudent small arms and artillery fire. You know either you can save your a$$ while giving stupid correction to the fire and risk the lives of hundreds or come outside and risk your own life against a bid to save many others.

This is no 'hit and trial', no 'likely' chance of being infected from virus, it is an established fact; you come out and your are plain DEAD!! but still they come out, charge, rush through the mine-fields and face the bullets!!

The troops are not sent into action just like that, they are properly trained and adequately equipped so they could do their job while keeping themselves protected from harms.

Oh yes they way they were protected when they were first rushed into Siachen in the fringing jerseys which dont even stop Lahore's cold and the DMS Boots which burn in summers and freeze in winter even in Multan!

Yeah right, they are now well protected when now they have been made available high altitude clothing and kits, but who is going to protect them from AMS, HACE, HAPE, unforgiving avalanches, mental agony, isolation, depression, memory failure, and unwritten 'diseases' like unable to enjoy the life again for ever!?

Indeed our troops work hard so that we could live our lives in peace, but WE also work hard for their betterment, and their welfare.

Are you doing a charity?
Every Nation does it, but they respect their soldiers also!

It is businesses that generate money, it is the tax tat generates the money, and that money is than spent on defense.

We also pay the taxes equally!
And let me not remind you the military is a non-profit business, which just 'spends' and pay back nothing in bank accounts! i wish every bullet or shell that we fire pay backs in term of increased sale of 'bio-chemical' vaccines!

It is two way traffic, a symbiotic relationship. That is why I always stress that a better economy of Pakistan will not only benefit the Pakistanis not on the borders but as much to the Pakistanis on the borders for they can be provided with state-of-the-art equipment, weapons and monitory benefits.

Who dont 'stress' on what you have said?
There is no second thought on it!

P.S. Can you feel the 'pain' in your level 4 lab when on eid day or on your sister's marriages eve or when your dad's last moments are near or when you were blessed with your first baby, you were two hours drive away from your home and couldnt go back as you were supposed to stay with your weapon so that many other sisters, fathers, wives can enjoy 'their' moment!

Now let's not compare overseas well off, well-settled Pakistanis' 'pain' with what i have mentioned!

 

[Omar1984]

Reality is today Pakistan is faced with much more threats in our western provinces than our eastern provinces, mainly because some foreign forces have made their way into neighboring Afghanistan and Pak-Afghan border was never as secure as Pak-Hind border was.

We need army bases in our western provinces now and we need to recruit more men from all over the country to serve in the army. Pakistan's army is the most organized and disciplined institution in the country, and we will always respect our army.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

It basically comes down to is work ethics, morals, personal and family values and upbringing, peer pressure and conscience amongst other things. ---millitary because of its strict discipline regime trains you to be ethically proficient in the job that you perform---there may always be exceptions---but on the whole---you tell a soldier to do something and it will be done---that is a part and parcel of their psyche, training---it is just like breathing air.

Now only if the civilians would have been put through similiar job training and work ethics, the incompetent and the lethargic facing the consequences, then the civilian populace in pakistan can take a stand. Now we do hold a millitary man to a different standard and a civilian to a different standard---.

I firmly believe that for pakistan to progress and pakistanis to do their jobs right, the civil servants of pakistan govt must be trained on millitary footings and must be held responcible to a higher physical fitmess standard and better work ethics.

Bottomline is for the pakistanis to be made to put in a real 8 hour shift---the strict rule of law will have to be applied on an emergency basis on war footings.

Anyway---setting up a cantonment in swat is like a pre-emptive strike. Here is how it works---you estimate the dollar loss to your income by the number of strikes by the terrorists in a years---that is your yearly average loss---plus add some extra to it for the sake of the multiplier effect----now multiple the total by 5 years and put in an exponential increase in the amount of loss for every year.

Suppose the total loss is calculated at eg 5billion dollars---now take that money and think that it is in your bank account---set up a millitary cantonment for an estimated amount of 1/2 billion dollars---the operational cost for the army operations for 5 years could run into 2 billion dollar---now we have spent 2 1/2 billion dollars---.

With the presence of millitary the terrorists activities go down to 15---20 % of current strikes---which means an aggregate loss of only .75---1 billion dollars in 5 years---so guess what---with a total expenditure of 3.25---3.5 billion dollars we are ahead of ourselves---we have saved ourselves 1.5---1.75 billion dollars and gues what the MILLITARY CANTONMENT THAT WE BUILT----WE GOT IT FREE OF COST---WE RECUPERATED ITS COST BY PREVENTING FUTURE LOSSES.

So---basically we built a millitary base with no money out of the exchequer's pocket.

If someone has a hard time understanding this formula---let ne know please---I can explain it again. MK

 

[Xeric]

@Kaka!

The point I was trying to make and you missed is that 7,000 rupees is not worth their service. And 3,500 clearly wasn’t. The pay structure is so poor that to expect them to be willing to fight is imprudent to say the least.

Try o find out how much an Army sepoy earns?


COIN is not about air-power. Once again, the use of artillery and air-power here has to be minimum because you cannot afford to destroy the existing infrastructure.
Hmmm…..never knew we have a Special ops expert here.

Destroying infrastructure!
Which infrastructures are you exactly talking about in mountains?
If you call isolated compounds on peaks who actually happens to be militants’ hide outs and weapon caches, as infrastructures, then you seriously need help.

BTW, how many times have you seen ‘cities’ being air strafed by PAF and the same being pounded with artillery? Het COIN expert, who idiot would wipe off an entire town with artillery and air force in FIBUA!
Are you reading yanks COIN manuals which actually talks about or I must say have been practicing vaporizing towns and towns to avoid hand to hand Urban fight?

It is only to avoid this ‘use of air force and artillery’ that COIN ops are considered the most difficult and nerve reckoning, otherwise had it been clear that this side Blue Land and that side the Fox Land, things would have been very simple, kakay! Though use of heavy weaponry can never be ruled out, in any operation.

No, you just wagged your “bloody civilians” tail here. I am human, genetically XX, no chromosomal mutations with absolutely no vestigial remnants either. There is no tail you stepped on here.
I seriously doubt that, send me your Autosomal DNA test report ASAP!

Must be quite shaming for you that a “civilian” has to tell you this.
Which ‘bloody’ civilian?!
BTW, I have more than three ATT/CTC/QRC courses/cadres to my credit…kakay!

So if the other forces that SSG is comparable with includes the “regular army”, what’s the difference between the two if they are on the same par?
When did I say this??
I wrote “SSG was trained for special ops, COIN, ATT/CTC etc etc since day it was born. They are the only and the best dudes that Pakistan has as regards to hostage rescue, FIBUA etc etc (other forces to compare with are the Elite Force (Police), the regular army, the ANF etc etc)” did I mention the compassion? Wakeup kakay!

The rest can safely be classified as a rant.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

BTW, how many times have you seen ‘cities’ being air strafed by PAF and the same being pounded with artillery? Het COIN expert, who idiot would wipe off an entire town with artillery and air force in FIBUA!

She might be referring to Loisam. But the Army seems to have learned from the experience in Bajaur.

Loisam also provided some unique challenges in terms of how the militants had integrated their defenses (tunnels crisscrossing between houses, sniper nests, bunkers, dungeons etc.).

The Military's first attempt at taking Loisam was in fact with a heli drop of a 100+ FC and Army troops. That particular raiding party was obliterated because of the Taliban defences in Loisam - the soldiers under fire from all sides in the town.

The PA/FC shed a lot of blood in subsequent attacks on Loisam as well, as they came to understand the network of tunnels and militant defences. So even there the decision to pummel a town evacuated of all its civilian population was not taken lightly.

 

[qsaark]

Ahan!
Sir, you got to have your basics trimmed actually. Even after such clarification from a unbiased 'civilian' you still consider the military profession equal to just any other job!

Unbiased 'civilian' because he favors you point of view. And I indeed do consider the military profession equal to just any other job. As long as they are being paid for their services, they are no special.

Care to mention those 'highs'

No, because you know them.

A painter who hangs himself with ropes and paints any high rise building also risks his life on daily basis, so what?

So what? So he is working hard and earning his living honourably. But you cant understand that because for you he is a lowly creature.

BTW, how much does these 'life endangering dare-devils' get paid for entering a level 4 lab?

Not more than any one else in the field of Science.

Moreover, you just got stuck on the 'life risking business' an omitted the other associated factors.

Such as?

Yes dear you got that right!
A thankless person like you has to be dealt accordingly. Atleast acknowledge that you are still able to flutter that Flag beneath your avatar because someone's blood and sweat is still keeping it Green!

I indeed am right because I know when certain people are left with no answer, they start calling people names to express their frustrations. If some one is keeping that flag green, it is the average Pakistani tax payer who doesn’t even have control over how his hard earned money should be spent.

 

[qsaark]

You talking about endangering yourself in level 4 labs, but forgot tio mention how much you get paid of it? .................

I have already mentioned that there are no special pay scales for such researchers and there should not be any. It was my passion to become a virologist nobody forced me. Why should the tax payers be forced to pay for my passion?

Let's have a poll; who is going to 'endanger' his live against a virus with the facilities, privileges, and pay rates as you people have and how many would wear a uniform and stand guard somewhere.

Where in US where people are enlightened or in Pakistan where the poor souls even don’t know what is fair and free?

I’ll give you and many others a million if they are ready to leave their 'normal' happy lives and spend a week at some post in Siachen. Let's see how many volunteer.

You don’t have to give me a dime, if I am needed, I'll be there. Easy said than done yes, but it will be like this.

Let's forget Siachen as its has become quite usual, let's see how many would wake up next day and would be ready to fight when they have seen their comrades being blown into pieces or their intestines spilled out a night before............

The militants or the terrorists you are fighting with are any different when it comes to fight? Or the narcotic smugglers? No they are not and why not? Because they may be wrong (and indeed they are wrong) but they believe in what they are doing. So if it was me and that was the reality around me, indeed, I'll be ready to do whatever was deeming necessary according to the situation.

Please dont compare virus labs with the infantry men charging towards the enemy during an attack who know 101% that only a few hundred meters short of enemy defences the ground would be laden with anti-personnel and anti-tank mines! and soon they themselves or the ones on their right or left would either blow up, take off or shed into pieces just a moment from now when they reach the home end of that mine-field!!

Literally there is no comparison. But it is passion that makes you do things even under extreme circumstances.

It takes more than a virus lab to face the enemy knowing fully well that their artillery would be pounding exactly the area they have to run across like hell with not an inch spared.

It takes more then chemicals to come out of an bunker to give corrections to artillery fire when you know that you no more can observe own artillery fire to correct it from inside the bunker, making yourself prone to enemy's prudent small arms and artillery fire. You know either you can save your a$$ while giving stupid correction to the fire and risk the lives of hundreds or come outside and risk your own life against a bid to save many others.

This is no 'hit and trial', no 'likely' chance of being infected from virus, it is an established fact; you come out and your are plain DEAD!! but still they come out, charge, rush through the mine-fields and face the bullets!!

No it is all about how seriously you take your profession and how much passion you have for completing a job regardless of odds.

Oh yes they way they were protected when they were first rushed into Siachen in the fringing jerseys which dont even stop Lahore's cold and the DMS Boots which burn in summers and freeze in winter even in Multan!

Yeah right, they are now well protected when now they have been made available high altitude clothing and kits, but who is going to protect them from AMS, HACE, HAPE, unforgiving avalanches, mental agony, isolation, depression, memory failure, and unwritten 'diseases' like unable to enjoy the life again for ever!?

I solute to their professionalism but if anyone is responsible for their misery is your own people not me.

Are you doing a charity?
Every Nation does it, but they respect their soldiers also!

I also do respect them but not any more than a farmer who is ploughing his field in 45oC or a poor cleaner who is cleaning the gutters for mere few thousand rupees a month.

We also pay the taxes equally!
And let me not remind you the military is a non-profit business, which just 'spends' and pay back nothing in bank accounts! i wish every bullet or shell that we fire pay backs in term of increased sale of 'bio-chemical' vaccines!

Research is also non-profit and you are among few out of several thousands if ever you come up with something marketable.

Who dont 'stress' on what you have said?
There is no second thought on it!

Thank you very much.

P.S. Can you feel the 'pain' in your level 4 lab when on eid day or on your sister's marriages eve or when your dad's last moments are near or when you were blessed with your first baby, you were two hours drive away from your home and couldnt go back as you were supposed to stay with your weapon so that many other sisters, fathers, wives can enjoy 'their' moment!

I do feel all you have mentioned, but joining Army was your choice, no one forced you to enlist. I was very well aware of the hardships of my profession when I joined, but I don’t tell everybody that I have to work 65-72 hours a week (this does not affect my salary by the way), that I pay my salary from my own grants and if they run out, I'll be asked to leave immediately. I just can not complaint because it was my choice made knowing all the highs and lows.

Now let's not compare overseas well off, well-settled Pakistanis' 'pain' with what i have mentioned!

Good for both of us.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Xeric and Qsaark sahiban,

Can we get off the subject of which profession entails what, and get back to the topic please.

I think you have both said your piece, and both have good points.

 

[Xeric]

Xeric and Qsaark sahiban,

Can we get off the subject of which profession entails what, and get back to the topic please.

I think you have both said your piece, and both have good points.

Wilco out!

 

[Patriot]

Hi,

It basically comes down to is work ethics, morals, personal and family values and upbringing, peer pressure and conscience amongst other things. ---millitary because of its strict discipline regime trains you to be ethically proficient in the job that you perform---there may always be exceptions---but on the whole---you tell a soldier to do something and it will be done---that is a part and parcel of their psyche, training---it is just like breathing air.

Now only if the civilians would have been put through similiar job training and work ethics, the incompetent and the lethargic facing the consequences, then the civilian populace in pakistan can take a stand. Now we do hold a millitary man to a different standard and a civilian to a different standard---.

I firmly believe that for pakistan to progress and pakistanis to do their jobs right, the civil servants of pakistan govt must be trained on millitary footings and must be held responcible to a higher physical fitmess standard and better work ethics.

Bottomline is for the pakistanis to be made to put in a real 8 hour shift---the strict rule of law will have to be applied on an emergency basis on war footings.

Anyway---setting up a cantonment in swat is like a pre-emptive strike. Here is how it works---you estimate the dollar loss to your income by the number of strikes by the terrorists in a years---that is your yearly average loss---plus add some extra to it for the sake of the multiplier effect----now multiple the total by 5 years and put in an exponential increase in the amount of loss for every year.

Suppose the total loss is calculated at eg 5billion dollars---now take that money and think that it is in your bank account---set up a millitary cantonment for an estimated amount of 1/2 billion dollars---the operational cost for the army operations for 5 years could run into 2 billion dollar---now we have spent 2 1/2 billion dollars---.

With the presence of millitary the terrorists activities go down to 15---20 % of current strikes---which means an aggregate loss of only .75---1 billion dollars in 5 years---so guess what---with a total expenditure of 3.25---3.5 billion dollars we are ahead of ourselves---we have saved ourselves 1.5---1.75 billion dollars and gues what the MILLITARY CANTONMENT THAT WE BUILT----WE GOT IT FREE OF COST---WE RECUPERATED ITS COST BY PREVENTING FUTURE LOSSES.

So---basically we built a millitary base with no money out of the exchequer's pocket.

If someone has a hard time understanding this formula---let ne know please---I can explain it again. MK

Couldn't agree more sir.Look at Cantt and other areas.You will find dust, and garbage here and there on raods where as Cantt is very clean because of Army.We Civilians are very undisciplined.My grandfather who joined Army in 51 spent well over 30+ years in Army and he is now 80+ years old but still a very well disciplined man.He has never broke any rule of law and is a very disciplined man.Its just the Army physique which make Soldiers very well disciplined where as we Civilians like to wake up at 12 in the morning and dont do any real work.

 

[qsaark]

Couldn't agree more sir.Look at Cantt and other areas.You will find dust, and garbage here and there on raods where as Cantt is very clean because of Army.We Civilians are very undisciplined.My grandfather who joined Army in 51 spent well over 30+ years in Army and he is now 80+ years old but still a very well disciplined man.He has never broke any rule of law and is a very disciplined man.Its just the Army physique which make Soldiers very well disciplined where as we Civilians like to wake up at 12 in the morning and dont do any real work.

Dude you are suggesting that ALL the civilians are undisciplined, and wakeup 12 in the morning and don’t do any real work, ALL of the civilians? I am curious to know how old are you and where you live? If you go to school or to the college or to your work, have you noticed public transport called buses, rikshaws and taxis? Are you aware that you can catch a public transport at any time day or night. What you think this public transport is run by the Army? Or have you ever visited some of your sick friend admitted in the something called a hospital. Who you think work in those hospitals in three shifts during the 24 hours time, Army personnel? Or have you ever bought a bread from the tandoor or a bakery to do your breakfast 5 or 6o clock in the morning, who run those tandoors and bakeries, Army? Have you ever gone to school? Who line you up for the morning assembly at 7:20, Army?

Your generalization is OK with me but your post also received thanks which is mind boggling.

 

[Kasrkin]

I am sure he didn't mean the 'any work' part literally. He just means the physical and emotional regimentation that army life brings is extremely hard to imitate for civilians. Civilians have their own struggles no doubt, and NO ONE is trying to belittle civilians here because after all most officers and NCOs do spend much of their lives living and working as civilians. There is, however, a certain amount of stereotyping of army-men by members of non-army serving communities and families (Pakistan is very polarized) but then again that is more due to uneducated judgmental-ism than some kind of real malice. Most people when they hear that you're planning to go for the army they just say "so you want to be like Musharraf and take over the country eh?" which is plain rude but they don't realize it because don't know any better. They don't know that the Army is made up of hundreds of thousands of people and that Musharraf is just one personality. Others think you've just got bad grades while some just gape at you as if you've informed everyone of your desire to work in the gutters...But then again all kinds of people everywhere, we shouldn't be put off. We were all meant for different things in this world and we should respect each other for that.

As for this announcement of a permanent army presence in Swat, well should've been the obvious step given the situation in the valley over the last few years. Sir Fatman17 with excellent sources wrote in his article that the garrison would be upgraded to a divisional HQ in the coming years which is huge. I just hope that the Army's stay would not be permanent and the paramilitaries can take over. These sorts of operations can wear an Army down, particularly one needed for conventional operations at a moment’s notice. I don’t doubt that the brigade/division will adjust and perform well, I just fear that it might disorientate them for conventional battle in the long term. The Indians, the Israelis and many others have had their finest fighting forces suffer greatly in conventional conflict because their quality has been worn down by COIN related activities, Pakistan just can’t afford to be one of them. Hopefuly the people of Swat and their police forces will take responsibility for their own future and the Army can move out and focus on primary tasks such as the threat from external forces.