President Zardari announces establishment of army base in Swat

[Xeric]

"Was this just to score points of was it done to make way for your entry in this thread?". You missed (c) None of the above. As for keeping "stupid school of though out of this discussion", the day you learn to spell the word "thought", I might even consider giving an ear to such a suggestion. Till then I am knee-deep in this conversation.

You could have come up with something better, rather than getting worried about my spellings!
Here take the ‘T’ and keep it handy!

And BTW: "Be original, otherwise the game gets boring!"

Opening up cantonments: That implies long-term involvement in the region and inadvertently spending lots of money — or to be more precise the “holy tax-payers' money”. Why not set up a temporary setting and spend that money equipping the forces – police and FC – which are supposed to protect the areas in the first place and will be needed to do so in case the army has to move out to defend some other border/frontier.
When you’ll come to know the ‘difference’ among these three forces, I may be able to make your brains understand it better. Till than take a walk around.

A hint: ‘AID IN CIVIL POWER’ and something known as ‘IS Duties’

If an FC personnel received a paltry 3,500 rupees (which the ISPR now proudly states has been doubled to 7,000 rupees), poor training etc etc, the personnel will not have any incentive to give his best. The army has to keep the local security forces in foresight for bolstering any short- and long- term commitments — take the case of Afghanistan where US forces patrol alongside local forces. The army cannot work in isolation because this is your own frontier, not a foreign shore. You have understand the local socio-political factors at play. Spend the money in bettering the pay structure...

I can assure you there is not much difference of pay between and FC and army soldier. But then I might found you suggesting tomorrow that officer from FPSC and PPSC should also be given the same pays, a fighter pilot and an infantry subaltern should also be equally paid and private guard standing outside the bank and an Army sentry outside a military installation should also be paid equally and the US and our President should be given the same $$. How idiotic! You simply don’t understand the difference in the mechanism and hierarchy!

Cantonments bringing development: (And this response is also for SSPGA). Fine there is development, but the development is primarily for the ease of the military and secondarily for the citizens. So in case an area never sees a cantonment, it should just give up on expecting development?
You are absolutely right! Thanks for reminding anywaz!
BTW, what was the fuss about?

You spoke of upgrading of equipments and newer technologies (such as net centric warfare, real time imagery, satellite communications, night vision equipment) being at your disposal. Do you really need all of this for the Taliban as of now?
Yeah right!
How about another solution: give us swords and let us make up the artillery with archery!

we cut down on the housing authorities and expansion of cantonments and divert all these funds to the upgrades. And yes "respectable tax payers" will not be willing to give the government any more money for bad governance.
Hmm.. now I know what stepped on the tail!

Now give me a break, I don’t want to start this DHA thingy here, you are all know what DHA is and how does it operates! And if you thing it is being run by the holy tax-payers’ money I really doubt your comprehension!
BTW, we pay for it, for every brick that is used there, from own pockets! (just an allusion)

Well when we can wait for five years (starting 2002) for the military to even consider COIN seriously, the least we can do now is to simultaneously train the police and paramilitary forces to deal with these insurgents. Think long-term, not only short-term.
Suggest this to the MOI, I am not the best suited for this proposition!

Two corrections: (a) according to the DG-ISPR training in COIN was started two years back and was previously not even part of the conventional warfare training provided at PMA.

Hmm let me recall..was it 2004 when the first CTC (Counter Terrorism Course) was started in Infantry School in addition to the one being run at Cherat, yes it was. But yes all-arms were not being trained in this regards so our DG, again, cant be accused of misquoting.

I know you are guud word player, but let’s not miss the facts.

So the entire army is not capable of dealing this insurgency
Yeah right! (Again)

Bad guess!
Even the Supply and Ordinance chaps are doing “side roll front fires-front role reverse fire-vehicle assault” and here a ‘civilian’ tells me that not everyone is capable of dealing this insurgency! Let’s do our own jobs, please.

certain units are, probably including the SSG commandoes
For your kind common sense and correcting the “probably”: SSG was trained for special ops, COIN, ATT/CTC etc etc since day it was born. They are the only and the best dudes that Pakistan has as regards to hostage rescue, FIBUA etc etc (other forces to compare with are the Elite Force (Police), the regular army, the ANF etc etc) Wake up!

Lastly, we all choose our professions, most of us are not forced into it, and should thereby learn to live with the decision we have made and the consequences. It’s like if you choose to be a doctor, then you can’t complain if you are on call every three days, have to put in long hours, are highly underpaid despite having spent 5 years doing your undergrad and at least another five doing your post-grad and have little to say in terms of social status and the monetary retribution you receive. As of now, there are very few sceptics of the army operation or broadly speaking of the way the army is doing business. So it’s time you stopped complaining/grumbling about how the army is not supported and appreciate the way the media and people of this country have given unrelenting support to the operation, with newspapers and TV channels running the ISPR’s press releases as its lead stories and doing questioning very little for three weeks back to back.

What was all that about?

Oh I got it, the honorable Nadja is comparing the profession of Arms with banking etc!

Revisit the peace agreements in South Waziristan and the adjoining tribal areas and you’ll know who exactly was the peace broker in those instances and why.
I’d say, why don’t you –re-visits’ it, it might be helpful, seriously!

An interesting sight…you saluting with both your hands. Do put up a pic on this thread, never knew the army also dispensed a degree in humour to its soldiers
Kakay, you are miles away from being humorous, so don’t allow me to provide you with any other rebukes.

 

[Xeric]

Capturing Kashmir has always been a dream of Pakistan Army hence Army has always been into planning and training for a possible fight in mountainous terrain. What kinds of soldiers were sent to fight in Kargil? Were they not train to fight in mountains and cold weather? Moreover Pakistan Army is also fighting in Siachen, again a mountainous terrain. Troops have been trained in Skardu and Gilgit. So I don’t buy that terrain or weather was/is something new for the Pakistani troops.

Pakistan Army started winning once public opinion turned against the militants, and all of us know how this happened. Pakistani troops are not composed of Martians; they are still Pakistanis coming from the various parts of the country. Hence we all know each other's culture, customs etc. Above all we are all Muslims. If this is not ‘home turf advantage’ than nothing is. So I still hold to my above two arguments and you are more than welcome to reject them.

Nothing more than Base rate and Gambler's fallacy!

 

[qsaark]

Oh I got it, the honorable Nadja is comparing the profession of Arms with banking etc!

That is the whole problem. What difference is there between the profession of Arms and any other profession? No difference whatsoever except for in the mind of the people. People provide their services and receive salary and benefits in return period. But in our armed forces especially in the Army a strong superiority complex is prevalent and of course it has come from the British colonial tradition and also from the shameful history of ruling this country. Even though we got independence from the British for almost 63 years now, mentally we still are the slaves of the British and still following their ways be it in Military or in Civil bureaucracy. There is no conscription and every Pakistani is free to join or not to join the military than what is all the fuss about? I have seen and met with US soldiers here, boy, they are human being first and soldiers second. No nonsense superiority complex, no nonsense 'we sacrifice you don’t' mentality. But of course there is no comparison between a free and civilized and a slave and uncivilized society. Once I was at the Atlanta Airport waiting in the lounge. An old man in uniform approached me and asked for the permission to sit next to me. When I looked at his uniform, he was a three star General. He asked about me, my country, and talked very normally, like a normal human being. There are times when I really feel lucky to be in the USA, but it also makes me sad, why are we not like them? Why do we have to say Sir? A word that always reminds me of the British Raj; why we can’t call each other with their first names? Why do we really have to stick to the decades old and actually dead British colonial traditions?

Nothing more than Base rate and Gambler's fallacy!

Keep living in delusions.

 

[SMIQBAL]

That is the whole problem. What difference is there between the profession of Arms and any other profession? No difference whatsoever except for in the mind of the people. People provide their services and receive salary and benefits in return period. But in our armed forces especially in the Army a strong superiority complex is prevalent and of course it has come from the British colonial tradition and also from the shameful history of ruling this country. Even though we got independence from the British for almost 63 years now, mentally we still are the slaves of the British and still following their ways be it in Military or in Civil bureaucracy. There is no conscription and every Pakistani is free to join or not to join the military than what is all the fuss about? I have seen and met with US soldiers here, boy, they are human being first and soldiers second. No nonsense superiority complex, no nonsense 'we sacrifice you don’t' mentality. But of course there is no comparison between a free and civilized and a slave and uncivilized society. Once I was at the Atlanta Airport waiting in the lounge. An old man in uniform approached me and asked for the permission to sit next to me. When I looked at his uniform, he was a three star General. He asked about me, my country, and talked very normally, like a normal human being. There are times when I really feel lucky to be in the USA, but it also makes me sad, why are we not like them? Why do we have to say Sir? A word that always reminds me of the British Raj; why we can’t call each other with their first names? Why do we really have to stick to the decades old and actually dead British colonial traditions?

Keep living in delusions.

Qsaark:
You are not happy over announcement of SWAT Cantonment. Have you ever been in Pakistan, yes, than have you ever visited the places like - Murree, Nathia Gali, Naran Khaghan, SWAT, Malam Jabba,. Now I tell you the difference. When you are in Murree, you will feel secure, Mall road shines whole night, no crime, no fear, no problem- why - just because of the presence of Army there. Now you come to other places, in Nathia gali you will lock youself in hotel or resort at 8.00 pm, in Kaghan you have to shun your activities at 8.00 pm. You feel unsafe while travelling, In Swat areas you have no night life, there was a feeling of insecurity during stay in hotels and travelling on hills. The above areas are heaven of Pakistan. Dont impress youself from the propaganda of western powers. We should be thankful to our armed forces for control against internal and external agressions and terrorism. It was my desire that SWAT and other like areas should be controlled by ARMY so that when you go with your family in those areas you feel secure and enjoy your tours. This is a blessing.Dont feel frustrated being a Pakistani, come to Pakistan and enjoy the life this is our country and we are part of it.

To your other feeling regarding Armed forces, there is no superiority complex, being a civilian i have very good relations with army people. When you will be in their company, you will enjoy the time spent with them, they do not talk hanky panky, they discuss topics, they enjoy life like civilian, they could be hard while in uniform because the nature of their duty but while on off duty they are so kind, friendly and good companions. You met with american general, please meet with a general of pakistan army you will enjoy the company when the guy shall treat you according to your age and discuss the issues in real life. Clean your mind, visit Pakistan, help your people, our nation is very Masoom, they need us. Give support to Pak army in getting rid of Terrorism,we need them, we need peace, we need security.

The western powers are propagating against pak army with a mission to control the south asian region, they are liviing in fool paradise, mere propaganda shall not create any breach in our security and our vision for south asian region. While reading, discussing or thinking about Pakistan keep your mind open and control your feeling, you should not be disturb, soon you will find Pakistan a peacefull country a properous Pakistan.
SMIQBAL

 

[qsaark]

Qsaark:
You are not happy over announcement of SWAT Cantonment....................... ...............soon you will find Pakistan a peacefull country a properous Pakistan. SMIQBAL

You indeed are a cool headed person and I have thanked you for that. My dear, I have been to all the northern areas, all the areas you have mentioned and also to many others which you have not since I used to be a serious hiker back than. I AM NOT UNHAPPY OR AGAINST THE ESTABLISHMENT OF A CANTONMENT ANYWHERE IN PAKISTAN. I am against the mentality behind this decision. You are new, but you can browse back my posts to find out why.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

For me---there is no greater profession than serving your country in the armed forces. Have I been in the armed forces---no---I have not been---. There is no job that comes close to the one where you put the uniform to lay down your life for the welbeing of the nation. Right from the day that you decided that this was your calling---till the day you get to wear your uniform----it totally seperates you from one and all.

No other job requires you to go and lay down your life with a smile on your face and pride in the eyes of your family members for sacrificing you, so that the flag of your country flies high---and likes of us live free---you sacrifice your life---so that me and my children can live happily. Thankyou and God bless you.

The superiority complex in the army doesnot come just like that---there is a reason behind that---it comes from the difference in quality of workmanship and a successful management style that the the army has in pakistan that no other civilian or private industry can compete with.

The function and management of resources as handled by the millitary are at a different pleateau than any other dept or industry that we have---so does that give the uniformed officer a 'strut' factor---I guess it does---when you have to call your millitary every time there is an issue.

As for the politeness of american general---it is a cultural thing. Our pakistani system is based upon class and caste system---where people are segregated into upper and lower castes, social standings and the bank account----americans are the nicest and the most polite people that one can come across anywhere in the world. Now---how you can get them to be on your side is a different story.

 

[qsaark]

Hi,

For me---there is no greater profession than serving your country in the armed forces. Have I been in the armed forces---no---I have not been---. There is no job that comes close to the one where you put the uniform to lay down your life for the welbeing of the nation. Right from the day that you decided that this was your calling---till the day you get to wear your uniform----it totally seperates you from one and all.

No other job requires you to go and lay down your life with a smile on your face and pride in the eyes of your family members for sacrificing you, so that the flag of your country flies high---and likes of us live free---you sacrifice your life---so that me and my children can live happily. Thankyou and God bless you.

The superiority complex in the army doesnot come just like that---there is a reason behind that---it comes from the difference in quality of workmanship and a successful management style that the the army has in pakistan that no other civilian or private industry can compete with.

The function and management of resources as handled by the millitary are at a different pleateau than any other dept or industry that we have---so does that give the uniformed officer a 'strut' factor---I guess it does---when you have to call your millitary every time there is an issue.

As for the politeness of american general---it is a cultural thing. Our pakistani system is based upon class and caste system---where people are segregated into upper and lower castes, social standings and the bank account----americans are the nicest and the most polite people that one can come across anywhere in the world. Now---how you can get them to be on your side is a different story.

With due respect Mastan Saheb, I do not agree with you. Military is a profession like any other profession. It has its highs and it also has risks associated with it. That is also true for any other profession. Those of us who work with deadly Ebola viruses (for which there is no cure and an agonizing death is almost certain in hours to few days time) in the bio safety level 4 labs also dodge a possible death on daily basis. Those brave souls, the doctors and the nurses who take care of the patients infected with highly contagious bugs also put their lives on the line literally every day. These people on average have an equal chance if not more of dying 'in the line of duty' compared with a military person. I personally know a few of my colleagues who lost their lives while working on these deadly bugs. Of course they don’t put on military uniform and no one talks about them. How would you rank the risk level for a worker working on a high-rise building? Or for that cleaner who enters into the gutters full of toxic hydrogen sulfide?

I also don’t find myself in agreement with you on “The function and management of resources as handled by the military are at a different plateau than any other dept or industry”. I myself have worked in KRL and have experienced first hand how things happen there. They may be a little better than the rest of the Government-run departments but nowhere near as compared to the privately owned industry.

Now I must expect another barrage of name calling from my friends who consider our military the Military of Angels.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi Qsaark,

When I first joined the university and took up microbiology as my major for BSc---I wasn't thinkign of losing my life or kiiling the enemy---and neither was my mother, father and sisters were sending me off with a heavy heart---fearing that they may never see me again.

What may have come later is a different thing---the number one killer in the world is malaria---is anyone scared of that parasite---but everyone may have lose bowel syndrome when they see an AK 47 pointed at them.

My father died due to multiple bouts of malaria caused damaged heart valves---oh by the by he was a doctor---just got posted in a bad area in sindh---were we fearful that any of us will lose their lives living in interior sindh. Heck no. That thought never entered our minds---not even after his demise. I don't know of anyone who has feared the microbe.

When I came to the u s in the early 80's, none of my family members were afarid that I might catch aids .

At least if I get sick---the taliban are not going to cut my neck from the back of the head with a dull knife or skin me alive or cut off my family jewels or chop me off piece by a piece.

 

[qsaark]

Hi Qsaark,

When I first joined the university and took up microbiology as my major for BSc---I wasn't thinkign of losing my life or kiiling the enemy---and neither was my mother, father and sisters were sending me off with a heavy heart---fearing that they may never see me again.

What may have come later is a different thing---the number one killer in the world is malaria---is anyone scared of that parasite---but everyone may have lose bowel syndrome when they see an AK 47 pointed at them.

My father died due to multiple bouts of malaria caused damaged heart valves---oh by the by he was a doctor---just got posted in a bad area in sindh---were we fearful that any of us will lose their lives living in interior sindh. Heck no. That thought never entered our minds---not even after his demise. I don't know of anyone who has feared the microbe.

When I came to the u s in the early 80's, none of my family members were afarid that I might catch aids .

At least if I get sick---the taliban are not going to cut my neck from the back of the head with a dull knife or skin me alive or cut off my family jewels or chop me off piece by a piece.

As I said earlier, it is all in the mind, all about perception. Armed forces is a glorified profession no doubt about that and for good reasons you have given in your several posts. My argument is only that one profession must not be considered superior over others in terms of loyalty and sacrifice. The troops are not sent into action just like that, they are properly trained and adequately equipped so they could do their job while keeping themselves protected from harms. Indeed our troops work hard so that we could live our lives in peace, but WE also work hard for their betterment, and their welfare. It is businesses that generate money, it is the tax tat generates the money, and that money is than spent on defense. It is two way traffic, a symbiotic relationship. That is why I always stress that a better economy of Pakistan will not only benefit the Pakistanis not on the borders but as much to the Pakistanis on the borders for they can be provided with state-of-the-art equipment, weapons and monitory benefits.

No bashing yet?

 

[Elmo]

@ Agnostic Muslim:
The construction of a permanent cantonment does not exclude investment in local institutions, nor is there any reason to believe that the funding required to construct and maintain will be so exorbitant as to prevent the necessary funding being directed into local institutions.

Agreed, but are there any measures in the pipeline for developing the regions by the provincial/federal governments?

In addition, there seems to be this idea in the arguments for 'investment in local law enforcement', that somehow the capacity building of local law enforcement will be accomplished in a matter of months. Even with the resources being directed into the Frontier Corps, it has been estimated by some analysts that the FC will not achieve the ability to function independently of the military for 3-4 years.
You are correct that probably not all 200,000 plus infantry are trained for COIN, but we will not be deploying all 200,000 plus infantry in the West, even accounting for rotation.
The biggest difference between the lack of COIN training in the local paramilitaries and the Army is that the Army is already very well equipped and trained in basic tactics and weapons and extremely disciplined. The only additional requirements would be further training in COIN tactics, but the building blocks (that are the most time consuming) are already catered for.
The process nevertheless has to take place no matter how long it is. You cannot supersede the functionality of local law enforcers, such as police, levies, FC, by the army. Each has a role to perform. Right now, there are very few on the ground actions that are diverted towards strengthening the Levies, Scouts and Constabulary.
Agreed the army has an advantage over the local paramilitaries etc but training along the same lines need to be dispensed to them also.

And in the meantime, as operations continue in Swat and possible expand into other agencies in FATA, the need for a local base is unarguable. And if we are to spend whatever is necessary to maintain such a base for a decade or half, then might as well make it permanent
The cantonment will serve as a base for that supporting role when the local institutions mature, and a base for the primary role it will likely have to play for the next few years.

No way! Poor justification for making a base permanent.

In case there is need to call in Army support given that events in Afghanistan will continue to have repercussions for Pakistan and we cannot control those events.
That’s pre-emptive.

The FC comes under the interior ministry - and what is wrong with the ISPR pointing out that their pay has been doubled? IIRC, the GoP said that the Frontier Corp pay had been brought up to par with that of the Army, and the family of FC soldiers now also qualified for benefits as is the case in the Army. Secondly, the Army does work in conjunction with the FC and other local para-militaries. Even going back a few years, many of the patrols and checkpoints in FATA were joint FC/Army. And that has continued in the current Swat operation as well. I find your assertions here rather incorrect.

The point I was trying to make and you missed is that 7,000 rupees is not worth their service. And 3,500 clearly wasn’t. The pay structure is so poor that to expect them to be willing to fight is imprudent to say the least.

Complete Strawman - no one is arguing that development only occur with the establishment of cantonments. What is being pointed out is that cantonments bring about development, whether as a secondary impact of catering to the needs of the cantonment or deliberate outreach and relationship building with the local communities by the Army. In the mean time, one hopes that the GoP and GoNWFP will play their part and make any Army efforts at development look pathetic.

For the first part, read the context (the previous posts) in which I had posted that comment again. As for the last sentence, that’s the whole point: the GoP and NWFP gov have not taken any steps to develop civil institutions but have very readily announced the establishment of a cantonment. Ironic.

Actually yes we do need all of the above for the Taliban. The judicious and accurate use of air-power and proper intelligence and coordinated operations can provide an even greater advantage to the military in operating in this terrain and reduce civilian casualties, especially as we attempt to rehabilitate the displaced population and deal with the remnants of the Taliban simultaneously.

COIN is not about air-power. Once again, the use of artillery and air-power here has to be minimum because you cannot afford to destroy the existing infrastructure. That’s why, you need to involve the infantry (or any other ground force). Intelligence gathering, patrolling — those should be the cornerstone. Not aerial bombardment. We don’t have enough resources (read: money) and have to weigh the pros and cons before we make any expenditure under a header.

All well and good - unfortunately when criticism does arrive, it tends to be nitpicking over nothing, like the 'shor' over the construction of this military cantonment.

Last I checked we were debating the merits and demerits of building an army cantonment here. But if you want to label that as “shor”, one can’t do much about it.


@ Xeric:

Thanks for the T. It is mighty useful. As for "Be original, otherwise the game gets boring!", the score is Xeric: -2 , Nadja: -1.

When you’ll come to know the ‘difference’ among these three forces, I may be able to make your brains understand it better. Till than take a walk around.
It’s you who need a crash course in knowing what the differences between the three forces are. Hint: Read what qsaark has written, very carefully!

A hint: ‘AID IN CIVIL POWER’ and something known as ‘IS Duties’
Yes, I knew you were going to hurl that my way.

I can assure you there is not much difference of pay between and FC and army soldier. But then I might found you suggesting tomorrow that officer from FPSC and PPSC should also be given the same pays, a fighter pilot and an infantry subaltern should also be equally paid and private guard standing outside the bank and an Army sentry outside a military installation should also be paid equally and the US and our President should be given the same $$. How idiotic! You simply don’t understand the difference in the mechanism and hierarchy!
Don’t think too much about what I will suggest tomorrow — it’s a waste of time and effort because we are on different wavelengths here. Instead better spend your time understanding what I am saying as of now: 7,000 rupees is nothing. The minimum wage set by the government in last year’s fiscal was 6,000 rupees. Be it an army jawan, FC soldier, a khasadar or the levies force, this is not sufficient. Hence better their pay structures and the training provided to them.

You are absolutely right! Thanks for reminding anywaz!
You are most welcome for this and the acknowledgement you have given me in your signature as well I certainly do have a stamp of authority

BTW, what was the fuss about?
Fuss over what?

Yeah right!
How about another solution: give us swords and let us make up the artillery with archery!
Whatever! Dude, look at the US in Afghanistan. They have all that you want as of now but are still unsuccessful. There is no substitute for planning and skilled execution. What advantage will you have with net-centric warfare and satellite communication against an enemy that has neither but is highly trained, carries basic equipments and is mobile.

Hmm.. now I know what stepped on the tail!
No, you just wagged your “bloody civilians” tail here. I am human, genetically XX, no chromosomal mutations with absolutely no vestigial remnants either. There is no tail you stepped on here.

Now give me a break, I don’t want to start this DHA thingy here, you are all know what DHA is and how does it operates! And if you thing it is being run by the holy tax-payers’ money I really doubt your comprehension! BTW, we pay for it, for every brick that is used there, from own pockets! (just an allusion)
No big deal — we civilians also pay for every brick from our pockets. Let’s leave this DHA issue out, we can argue over this some other time.

Suggest this to the MOI, I am not the best suited for this proposition!
You have a contact there who I can speak to please let me know!

Hmm let me recall..was it 2004 when the first CTC (Counter Terrorism Course) was started in Infantry School in addition to the one being run at Cherat, yes it was. But yes all-arms were not being trained in this regards so our DG, again, cant be accused of misquoting. I know you are guud word player, but let’s not miss the facts.
Well that’s what he said in press when he was asked if Pakistan has a COIN doctrine, since when and has training been started in that. Just quoted what he had said. You should up date him.

Yeah right! (Again)
Whatever! (Again)

Bad guess!
Even the Supply and Ordinance chaps are doing “side roll front fires-front role reverse fire-vehicle assault” and here a ‘civilian’ tells me that not everyone is capable of dealing this insurgency! Let’s do our own jobs, please.
Well those “chaps” can continue with their Kill Bill manoeuvres but that is no way to be victorious over these insurgents. Must be quite shaming for you that a “civilian” has to tell you this, but do go through COIN manuals to understand what is needed in a counter-insurgency indeed. In fact, take a short cut and browse the thread “what exactly went wrong”. There are two extracts from works by Kilcullen and John. Lynn that are highly enlightening.

SSG was trained for special ops, COIN, ATT/CTC etc etc since day it was born. They are the only and the best dudes that Pakistan has as regards to hostage rescue, FIBUA etc etc (other forces to compare with are the Elite Force (Police), the regular army, the ANF etc etc)
So if the other forces that SSG is comparable with includes the “regular army”, what’s the difference between the two if they are on the same par?


What was all that about? Oh I got it, the honorable Nadja is comparing the profession of Arms with banking etc!
Stop complaining!

I’d say, why don’t you –re-visits’ it, it might be helpful, seriously!
No you really need to re-visit them! Here is an excerpt from an interview that Musharraf gave. Now don’t you dare say that it isn’t so…

[Safdar Hussain was corps commander Peshawar]

FRONTLINE: return of the taliban: pakistan: cutting deals with the taliban | PBS


The United States military was frustrated when they saw the approach you took through your corps commander, Safdar Hussein, in 2004 by negotiating deals with Taliban commanders. Was that a successful strategy?
No, no, I think it didn't prove [effective], but one should never speak with hindsight. You have to apply all instruments -- military, political, administrative -- to succeed. Now, we thought if we reached an agreement, that would be the end of it; they will suppress it to peaceful means.

Well, it proved wrong, because the people who got involved on the other side, they double-crossed. While they carried on with their own activities, the army, in fact, became a little complacent that we have reached an agreement. Then we reactivated the same process again. With hindsight one can see, well, that didn't prove to be correct.
What was the agreement?
The agreement was that the militants are going to either lay down arms or they are going to be shunted out of the place, and the locals are going to cooperate with the army in asking these militants to either get off Pakistan or lay down their arms. That was basically the agreement and the cooperation between our own people with the military.

Was that a written agreement?
Yes, there was a written agreement, but one can't say that it had any legal binding as such. It was an agreement between the corps commander and one of the local militant leaders, I would say.

But it had your backing?
Yes. When the corps commander was reaching an agreement, he told me that he was going to have an agreement with [pro-Taliban Pakistani tribal leader] Nek Mohammed. …

There's a number of prominent observers of the situation in South Waziristan now saying that South Waziristan has been lost; the Taliban are powerful, and the writ of government is absent. How do you respond to that?
There is a problem there. Certainly the Taliban have risen, and the writ of the government is being challenged. That is exactly what we are doing now. We have changed strategy. We are putting a new strategy in place. …

What is the strategy?
It has four elements to it. Number one, the military element, which should continue. The military will keep operating against the cross-border Taliban interaction. We need to stop that.
The other is the political element, where we would allow progressive political forces into these areas, try to take people away from the obscurantist forces [of] the Taliban.
The third is administrative action combined with reconstruction activity, third and fourth. The administrative action is that we need to revitalize the office of the political agent, which has become almost dormant and impotent, having relinquished their authority to the military.
Now, what is happening, when we are talking of this Talibanization or Taliban culture coming up, is more to be dealt [with] through political and administrative means rather than military means. You cannot suppress extremist tendencies or extremism or obscurantist views; it's a state of mind. You cannot act militarily against it unless they are using force. Therefore, we have decided to reinforce or reinvigorate the political agent, posting the best people there, giving them force behind, and that we are going to have through levies and the Frontier Constabulary -- revitalize them, strengthen the Frontier Corps more. And the army is there.
So we are going to have the political agents more up front, the most dynamic kind. We are doubling their pay, giving special incentives. Then we are reinvigorating the FATA Secretariat under the governor. We are developing very strong linkages between this FATA Secretariat and the frontier civil government so that they act in unison against whatever developments are taking place. Then we are creating a FATA Development Authority there under able people.
Then also we are integrating the maliks and the lungee holders, those who wear turbans, and they are the senior maliks of tribes and sub-tribes. We will have councils of them, and they will act together with their political agent for development, and also take people away from Taliban and bring them under the age-old culture of the maliks there in the FATA.
So what we are trying to do is to revive the old culture of the strong political agent, working in tandem with the malik and lungee holders through councils created of them, and under the FATA Secretariat, effective FATA Secretariat, and also FATA Development Authority, pumping in a lot of money for reconstruction. These are elements of the entire strategy. I think this is the best that we could do.

Kakay, you are miles away from being humorous, so don’t allow me to provide you with any other rebukes.
Humour… me… here… no way. That was sarcasm, which you obviously missed.

 

[Elmo]

For Agnostic Muslim:



Had forgotten to add this to my earlier post. This is an editorial that came in Dawn today.

Anti-terrorism force

Dawn Editorial
Tuesday, 16 Jun, 2009 | 07:55 AM PST |


In stating that the ‘police are not trained to counter terror attacks’ and referring to the need for a new security force dedicated to fighting terrorism, PML-N chief Nawaz Sharif has made a valid point. The methods pursued by the extremists at work in Pakistan resemble a form of urban warfare where it is not easy to tell a terrorist from a civilian. All a militant has to do to pass for a non-combatant is to temporarily abandon his weapon. This allows terrorists to melt at will into the civilian population, making the countering of possible attacks doubly difficult.

While the military operation has certainly achieved some success, it is also certain that the army cannot maintain an indefinite presence in the affected areas — particularly with the military action being expanded to Fata. Once active military presence is withdrawn and displaced populations start returning, the task of ensuring law and order will, under the current circumstances, fall primarily to the police. But the police force in the conflict areas is already demoralised and suffers from issues endemic to the country’s civilian security apparatus such as the lack of training, funding and operational resources.

There is, therefore, a need to constitute a new security force trained specifically to counter terrorism. In this regard, it is encouraging that the government has announced the intention of setting up such a force in Swat. Such a force would be of use wherever there is evidence of militant or terrorist cells. To achieve long-term success, however, the intelligence-gathering network feeding the anti-terrorism force will prove of pivotal importance.

The ability to tell a terrorist from a non-combatant will depend on local knowledge and require an ear-to-the-ground approach. The conduits of information available to the police must therefore be utilised to the fullest, for the police already have a wide network of informants and local knowledge. And while the anti-terrorism force must work in conjunction with the police, the two bodies must also remain distinct from each other to avoid issues of jurisdictional and operational overlap. Moreover, the police force must urgently be bolstered with resources and trained staff.

DAWN.COM | Pakistan | Anti-terrorism force
Copyright © 2009 - Dawn Media Group

 

[fatman17]

the local govt. dosnt have the funds to upgrade the civil security apparatus - no this is not a copout but a fact. plus the country is so used to "calling-in" the armed forces, because the institutions dont have the capacity or capability to provide the type of training, infrastructure, motivation etc, so call-in the army because its the easiest thing to do.

in any case if at some point, the govt in power does decide to change this situation (and it should but the budget dosnt reflect that), it will take time - a long time (3-5 years) and unfortunately the situation demands "action now" so its damned-if-you-do and damned-if-you-dont!. this country is struck between a rock and a hard place!. not many choices.

the only country that has funds, (guess what) the US is a reluctant partner due to the past history between both countries is providing help but it will take time. eg; it has taken 1 year to train 400 FC soldiers in COIN and my estimate is you need at-least a brigade level force to be effective. so 5,000 soldiers will probably take 3 years as the learning curve is very steep at this point and once the FC has enough trainers, the training will be faster and quicker.

replicate the same for the Police. so we see the problem - money & time which we dont have!

have a nice day!

 

[Communist]

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

Pakistan, China vow to fight terror together

* Zardari, Karzai, Medvedev vow to jointly fight ‘nameless’ enemies
* Pakistan, Russia vow to boost economic ties

YEKATERINBURG: Pakistan and China, reiterating their strong desire for enhanced cooperation in all areas, stressed stronger collaboration to counter threats from extremist and terrorists and vowed to make progress on their strategic partnership.

President Asif Ali Zardari and President Hu Jintao who met here on Monday, ahead of the meeting of the Shanghai Cooperation Organisation (SCO), also discussed the prevailing regional situation.

Both leaders were of the view that the two nations were opposed to terrorism and would continue to cooperate with each other, with increased sharing of information and closer collaboration to counter threats.

‘Nameless’: Presidents Zardari, Karzai and Medvedev agreed on the challenges the three countries were facing and hoped that with greater interaction will be able to succeed in defeating what President Zardari described as the “nameless and faceless” enemy.

The trilateral summit follows a series of similar meetings held on the sidelines of the SCO meeting.

Russia: Also on Monday, President Zardari and his Russian counterpart Dmitry Medvedev vowed to open a new chapter in their countries’ relationship with joint efforts to boost their economic ties and to fight together the threats of terrorism and extremism.

The Russian president said his country would like to develop a full-fledged bilateral relationship with Pakistan in a congenial atmosphere.

Earlier, President Zardari and his Afghan counterpart Hamid Karzai met ahead of the trilateral summit and reviewed their bilateral relations, the security situation and the challenges confronting the two countries at the hands of extremists and terrorists.

Later, President Zardari also met his Tajik counterpart Emomali Rahman, with whom he reviewed the relations between the two countries spanning over a decade, and stressed the need to enhance these into more meaningful ties.

Both agreed to collaborate in the fields of exploration, extraction and processing of gas and oil products.

President Zardari was assisted by Foreign Minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi and Pakistan’s Ambassador to Russia Khalid Khattak during the meetings.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

@ Agnostic Muslim:
The construction of a permanent cantonment does not exclude investment in local institutions, nor is there any reason to believe that the funding required to construct and maintain will be so exorbitant as to prevent the necessary funding being directed into local institutions.

Agreed, but are there any measures in the pipeline for developing the regions by the provincial/federal governments?

I am not aware of anything specific announced by the government, but how does the lack of such planning by the government end up being justification for the implementation of a, IMO, excellent idea in the form of the construction of a permanent cantonment in Swat?

The only way such an argument would be valid is if the expense of a cantonment were so exorbitant as to prevent other programs of development and reconstruction from being implemented.


In fact the GoP probably finds this an easy decision to make since once the approval for the cantonment is given, the GoP has essentially washed its hands of the affair and outsourced it to the military - and come election time the ANP and PPP politicians will be bragging about how they set up a cantonment in the region.

In addition, there seems to be this idea in the arguments for 'investment in local law enforcement', that somehow the capacity building of local law enforcement will be accomplished in a matter of months. Even with the resources being directed into the Frontier Corps, it has been estimated by some analysts that the FC will not achieve the ability to function independently of the military for 3-4 years.
You are correct that probably not all 200,000 plus infantry are trained for COIN, but we will not be deploying all 200,000 plus infantry in the West, even accounting for rotation.
The biggest difference between the lack of COIN training in the local paramilitaries and the Army is that the Army is already very well equipped and trained in basic tactics and weapons and extremely disciplined. The only additional requirements would be further training in COIN tactics, but the building blocks (that are the most time consuming) are already catered for.

The process nevertheless has to take place no matter how long it is. You cannot supersede the functionality of local law enforcers, such as police, levies, FC, by the army. Each has a role to perform. Right now, there are very few on the ground actions that are diverted towards strengthening the Levies, Scouts and Constabulary.
Agreed the army has an advantage over the local paramilitaries etc but training along the same lines need to be dispensed to them also.

But here again I sense a strawman argument - no one, not the military, not the GoP and certainly none of us here, are arguing that the capacity building of local institutions should not take place. Nor should the expense of cantonment prevent that capacity building of local institutions from taking place. If plans for building up local institutions are non-existent or suffer from poor implementation, that that is more a reflection of a lack of competency on the part of the GoP, it is not by itself a valid argument against the construction of a cantonment.

The construction of a cantonment serves to fill that qualitative gap, both psychologically and physically, in Swat. We can see this in the case of the Frontier Corp, as its capabilities have grown, it has increasingly taken on operations independent of the Army or with the Army playing a supporting rather than primary role.

And in the meantime, as operations continue in Swat and possible expand into other agencies in FATA, the need for a local base is unarguable. And if we are to spend whatever is necessary to maintain such a base for a decade or half, then might as well make it permanent
The cantonment will serve as a base for that supporting role when the local institutions mature, and a base for the primary role it will likely have to play for the next few years.

No way! Poor justification for making a base permanent.

Certainly the need to have a permanent physical military presence in the region is not justified solely by the argument of the military filling a void that local institutions may not fill for decade or so. But that is where the psychological aspect of announcing a 'permanent base' comes into play, in terms of reassuring people that the GoP and military are serious about combating the insurgent threat, and therefore give them confidence to return.

My justification for permanency included the following argument as well.

In case there is need to call in Army support given that events in Afghanistan will continue to have repercussions for Pakistan and we cannot control those events.
That’s pre-emptive.

It is pre-emptive, but it is not preemption based on a fantasy. The threat from crossborder and transnational militant movement is a very real one, and we have seen the ramifications of this dynamic in Swat and FATA already.

This is very smart pre-emtion given the instability in Afghanistan, and the almost certain expansion into other agencies in FATA (which we are already starting to see to some degree).

The FC comes under the interior ministry - and what is wrong with the ISPR pointing out that their pay has been doubled? IIRC, the GoP said that the Frontier Corp pay had been brought up to par with that of the Army, and the family of FC soldiers now also qualified for benefits as is the case in the Army. Secondly, the Army does work in conjunction with the FC and other local para-militaries. Even going back a few years, many of the patrols and checkpoints in FATA were joint FC/Army. And that has continued in the current Swat operation as well. I find your assertions here rather incorrect.

The point I was trying to make and you missed is that 7,000 rupees is not worth their service. And 3,500 clearly wasn’t. The pay structure is so poor that to expect them to be willing to fight is imprudent to say the least.

No doubt pay structures should be improved, and increasing pay has been mentioned as one aspect of improving the capacity of the FC and other local institutions, but how does one cantonment prevent that?

Doubling the pay and providing greater benefits to the FC and their families is an excellent first step. Is it enough? No, and we can only hope that Pakistan's financial situation improves so salaries and benefits can be increased. Additionally, perhaps some of the money being directed to Pakistan under COIN funds by the US might be used to increase FC salaries as well.

Complete Strawman - no one is arguing that development only occur with the establishment of cantonments. What is being pointed out is that cantonments bring about development, whether as a secondary impact of catering to the needs of the cantonment or deliberate outreach and relationship building with the local communities by the Army. In the mean time, one hopes that the GoP and GoNWFP will play their part and make any Army efforts at development look pathetic.

For the first part, read the context (the previous posts) in which I had posted that comment again. As for the last sentence, that’s the whole point: the GoP and NWFP gov have not taken any steps to develop civil institutions but have very readily announced the establishment of a cantonment. Ironic.

They have announced the cantonment because it is an easy decision for them, as I suggested earlier. They approve the cantonment, and essentially outsource it to the Army, and voila. You'll likely have the cantonment established provided funds are released on time.

Again, your argument is more a reflection upon the capability of our political leadership, rather than an argument against the necessity and benefits of a cantonment.

Actually yes we do need all of the above for the Taliban. The judicious and accurate use of air-power and proper intelligence and coordinated operations can provide an even greater advantage to the military in operating in this terrain and reduce civilian casualties, especially as we attempt to rehabilitate the displaced population and deal with the remnants of the Taliban simultaneously.

COIN is not about air-power. Once again, the use of artillery and air-power here has to be minimum because you cannot afford to destroy the existing infrastructure. That’s why, you need to involve the infantry (or any other ground force). Intelligence gathering, patrolling — those should be the cornerstone. Not aerial bombardment. We don’t have enough resources (read: money) and have to weigh the pros and cons before we make any expenditure under a header.

I am not suggesting that COIN is all about airpower, but I will maintain that airpower can be an important supportive element in COIN if used accurately and judiciously, and for that 'high tech, net centric warfare is essential'.

Patrolling and good intelligence should be the cornerstone, but supporting your patrols with properly coordinated and precision guided airpower, if the need arises, could be the difference between an entire patrol being wiped out in an ambush by a larger Taliban party.

In addition, high tech aerial assets can provide good intelligence in COIN. My problem with the US employment of air assets is more with how they tend to employ them a little too quickly in populated areas, not that they employ them to begin with.

All well and good - unfortunately when criticism does arrive, it tends to be nitpicking over nothing, like the 'shor' over the construction of this military cantonment.

Last I checked we were debating the merits and demerits of building an army cantonment here. But if you want to label that as “shor”, one can’t do much about it.

With all due respect, I have seen little discussion on the 'merits and demerits of a permanent cantonment', and more arguments blasting the incompetency of the GoP in not having more specific policies related to reconstruction and development of local institutions.

A permanent cantonment vs development/capacity building is not a zero sum game, and the two are not mutually exclusive.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

For Agnostic Muslim:



Had forgotten to add this to my earlier post. This is an editorial that came in Dawn today.

Anti-terrorism force

Dawn Editorial
Tuesday, 16 Jun, 2009 | 07:55 AM PST |


In stating that the ‘police are not trained to counter terror attacks’ and referring to the need for a new security force dedicated to fighting terrorism, PML-N chief Nawaz Sharif has made a valid point. The methods pursued by the extremists at work in Pakistan resemble a form of urban warfare where it is not easy to tell a terrorist from a civilian. All a militant has to do to pass for a non-combatant is to temporarily abandon his weapon. This allows terrorists to melt at will into the civilian population, making the countering of possible attacks doubly difficult.

While the military operation has certainly achieved some success, it is also certain that the army cannot maintain an indefinite presence in the affected areas — particularly with the military action being expanded to Fata. Once active military presence is withdrawn and displaced populations start returning, the task of ensuring law and order will, under the current circumstances, fall primarily to the police. But the police force in the conflict areas is already demoralised and suffers from issues endemic to the country’s civilian security apparatus such as the lack of training, funding and operational resources.

There is, therefore, a need to constitute a new security force trained specifically to counter terrorism. In this regard, it is encouraging that the government has announced the intention of setting up such a force in Swat. Such a force would be of use wherever there is evidence of militant or terrorist cells. To achieve long-term success, however, the intelligence-gathering network feeding the anti-terrorism force will prove of pivotal importance.

The ability to tell a terrorist from a non-combatant will depend on local knowledge and require an ear-to-the-ground approach. The conduits of information available to the police must therefore be utilised to the fullest, for the police already have a wide network of informants and local knowledge. And while the anti-terrorism force must work in conjunction with the police, the two bodies must also remain distinct from each other to avoid issues of jurisdictional and operational overlap. Moreover, the police force must urgently be bolstered with resources and trained staff.

DAWN.COM | Pakistan | Anti-terrorism force
Copyright © 2009 - Dawn Media Group

I have absolutely nothing against what the author argues, and neither does the military, from everything I have read in terms of how they view the issue.

I argued almost two years ago that the WoT in Pakistan would boil down to local law enforcement and that the government should start investing in capacity building of those institutions, so you are preacing to the choir here.

My difference of opinion with you arises over the criticism being leveled at the construction of the cantonment, which will fill a psychological and physical void till such time as local institutions are capable of handling the law and order situation, as well as protecting Pakistan's national security concerns in terms of the fluid and unstable situation in Afghanistan and its possible impact on Pakistan.