President Zardari announces establishment of army base in Swat

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

It is not security but ' law enforcement ' that is the job of the police. The situation in swat is beyond law enfrocement---it is an insurgency movement and in an insurgency movement---the millitary goes in first to for the cleanup and police follows through to keep the the law and order situation under control.

We can argue about the intricacies of millitary welfare or civilian govt welfare---the bottomline for the residents is that they care less---if it comes in one form or the other---it is acceptable---secondly---under the given circumstance, the civilian govt cannot do much without the help of the millitary---.

Now we do understand that our civilian govt's are not capable of providing the simple basics to our population in time and in an expedient manner----have we ever thought and pondered why is that so----could it be for the reason that they are not trained to do so---possibly it is the clan system---lack of respect and understanding of the issues that the public faces---or out of sheer incompetence the civilians are not able to provide for the simple basics.

 

[Xeric]

Hi,

It is not security but ' law enforcement ' that is the job of the police. The situation in swat is beyond law enfrocement---it is an insurgency movement and in an insurgency movement---the millitary goes in first to for the cleanup and police follows through to keep the the law and order situation under control.

We can argue about the intricacies of millitary welfare or civilian govt welfare---the bottomline for the residents is that they care less---if it comes in one form or the other---it is acceptable---secondly---under the given circumstance, the civilian govt cannot do much without the help of the millitary---.

Now we do understand that our civilian govt's are not capable of providing the simple basics to our population in time and in an expedient manner----have we ever thought and pondered why is that so----could it be for the reason that they are not trained to do so---possibly it is the clan system---lack of respect and understanding of the issues that the public faces---or out of sheer incompetence the civilians are not able to provide for the simple basics.

Thnx MK, and let me simplify this.

Problem>Police to handle it>failed/incapable of handling the situation>Rangers is called>failed/found inappropriate>last option get the military to do the job, its something to do with ther IS Job that the military is supposed to do under the Country's Constitution (the Aid in Civil power thing). Military being the last line of defence cant shake hands and cut deals, neither can they pamper and concentrate entirely on collateral damage.

If there ss still someone who thinks that the situation in Swat doesnt merit military's involvement i can do nothing but can only salute him (with both hands, actually)

 

[qsaark]

If there ss still someone who thinks that the situation in Swat doesnt merit military's involvement i can do nothing but can only salute him (with both hands, actually)

There are no two opinions that Military's involvement was needed to control the situation in Sawat. However, once the militant’s network is broken and a large number of them killed (if this has happened), the military should go back and return the responsibility of the security and law enforcement to the police and paramilitary. Establishing a permanent cantt in Sawat appears unnecessary burden on the Pakistani tax payers.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi Xeric,

Once the millitary moves in, it is neither practical to bring them back asap nor it is strategically correct to move them around. Pakistan is not a t a liberty to move its armed forces back from the frontlines in swat etc. There is too much world pressue.

The u s has responded positively to what pak army is doing----the conditions attached to aid have been removed---A Q Khan interview---inda and terrorist activities---so it is a big bonus for pakistan at this time. The taliban are on the run definitely---but they have not been neutralized or defeated at all---their top leadership need to be found and neutralized and as many millitants that are caught need to should not be 'captured'.

The millitary should stay for as long as it takes to bring peace to the area and stop from any future insurgencies. All the foreigners need to be acoounted for----the foreigners that I am talking about are not neccessarily our afghan brothers but the arabs, chechens, uzbeks, somalians and other africans. These people need to be executed on the spot---just like the saudis would do to any paks in saudia---AN EXAMPLE SHOULD BE MADE FOR ALL THE FOREIGNERS THAT HAVE BEEN INVOLVED IN KILLING PAKISTANIS.

We need to show them islamic sharia justice as practised by all the muslim rulers of any muslim country anytime anywhere in the world for creating an insurgency in an islamic nation which has been surrounded by enemies---.

Our mughal emperors would have skinned them alive---stretched them on stakes and let then die in the burning sun---our muslim eperors of the middle east---would have also executed the infants, children, girls and women of all these insurgents in front of their eyes---they would have been blinded by hot burning iron rods---body parts slowly and surgically amuptated or torn apart---and the remains hung on poles for the people to fear the writ of the state. I am only giving the examples of justice forced upon insurgents by the muslim emperors of islamic history---.

These people need to get what they deserve---pakistan gave a sanctuary to all these people whom their own motherlands had rejected---when nobody could accept them---pakistan opened up its arms---now that they want to cut those open arms----pakistan needs to act accordingly as a sovereign state.

Are we barbarians---no we are not---but indeed we are dealing with them---these taliban have left no stone unturned to degrade the sanctity of human life---they needed to be paid in the same coin.


Coming back to the millitary cantonments---it is a historical fact any place anywhere in the world---russia, america, britain, so america, african continent or any other place on earth---if there is an insurgency---neutralize the situation and after you are done---set up a fort---a millitary base for future expeditions---forts have grown into larger garrisons and cantonments---and alongwith the millitary installations the civilian business have grown as well. This has been the fact of life---hasn't changed so far and seemingly won't be changing any time soon.

There is no turning back the clock---once the army moves in to build a cantonment---normally there is no going back.

 

[wild peace]

So Pakistan is " Cantt Republic of Pakistan "....lol

One should use the name with the respect "IF ONE IS PAKISTANI I DOUBT"

 

[Xeric]

There are no two opinions that Military's involvement was needed to control the situation in Sawat. However, once the militant’s network is broken and a large number of them killed (if this has happened), the military should go back and return the responsibility of the security and law enforcement to the police and paramilitary. Establishing a permanent cantt in Sawat appears unnecessary burden on the Pakistani tax payers.

So you mean that we have already wiped off the terrorists? Qsaark i sometime really doubt your sensibility. In a single post you have not only doubted the claims made by the Army regarding killing/apprehending/destroying the militants' backbone and but also have shown your shallow understanding of military affairs.

The f!lth built over years would not be clean in moments.

You want to suggest that the military should go, wipe the militants in days and the very next day it should packup and go on leave! How naive!

 

[qsaark]

So you mean that we have already wiped off the terrorists? Qsaark i sometime really doubt your sensibility. In a single post you have not only doubted the claims made by the Army regarding killing/apprehending/destroying the militants' backbone and but also have shown your shallow understanding of military affairs.

The f!lth built over years would not be clean in moments.

You want to suggest that the military should go, wipe the militants in days and the very next day it should packup and go on leave! How naive!

My Dear Soldier, please read your own sentences:

"So you mean that we have already wiped off the terrorists?". So your are suggesting that you have NOT wiped off the terrorists. In the next sentence you are saying "......you have not only doubted the claims made by the Army regarding killing/apprehending/destroying the militants' backbone.....". Now here you are suggesting that that the claims made by Army regarding killing/apprehending/destroying the militants' backbone ARE correct.

First, I am not saying the Army has wiped off the militants; it is ISPR that is giving us this news. Because all the big guns are still at large except for the two (Muslim Khan and Ameer Izzat) who were killed probably in a false encounter.

Second, as you have said, the police got failed, the paramilitary got failed. Why they were failed? Due to the following reasons:

A. In the earlier days of operation, the public opinion was on the side of the militants and both the police and paramilitary was composed of perhaps a significant number of the local inhabitants, hence they were also divided on whether to go after the militants or not.

B. Corruption in Police and to lesser extent in the para-military forces.

C. Police and para-military was neither trained nor adequately equiped to deal with highly trained and well-equiped militants.

D. Police and paramilitary was out-numbered.

Now the situation is different as compared to what it was a few months ago (if I go with what ISPR is telling us). IF the militant's network is broken and if their capacity of waging war or mutiny is crippled (through destroying their weapon stashes etc., through cutting their finances, through stopping them from fresh recruitments etc), than Army has achieved its objective. And IF this objective is achieved, than the militants/terrorists should be 'soft' enough by now to be dealt by the police and the paramilitary.

Nobody is saying that the ***** built over time (which is a clear indication that all the intelligence was failed miserably OR the ***** was allowed to accumulate deliberately) can be cleaned in moments. But the operation is going on for months now and it is neither in the favor of the people of Sawat nor in the favor of Army to remain in this situation for long. In my opinion, policing and running after few criminals is not the job of military, it is the job of police and paramilitary.

And Soldier, next time if you wish to reply to my post, please keep my 'sensibility' and 'personality' and 'profession' out of the discussion. You have all the right to doubt about everything but you certainly have no right to throw mud on me publicly.

 

[Xeric]

My Dear Soldier, please read your own sentences:

"So you mean that we have already wiped off the terrorists?". So your are suggesting that you have NOT wiped off the terrorists. In the next sentence you are saying "......you have not only doubted the claims made by the Army regarding killing/apprehending/destroying the militants' backbone.....". Now here you are suggesting that that the claims made by Army regarding killing/apprehending/destroying the militants' backbone ARE correct.

First, I am not saying the Army has wiped off the militants; it is ISPR that is giving us this news. Because all the big guns are still at large except for the two (Muslim Khan and Ameer Izzat) who were killed probably in a false encounter.

Second, as you have said, the police got failed, the paramilitary got failed. Why they were failed? Due to the following reasons:

A. In the earlier days of operation, the public opinion was on the side of the militants and both the police and paramilitary was composed of perhaps a significant number of the local inhabitants, hence they were also divided on whether to go after the militants or not.

B. Corruption in Police and to lesser extent in the para-military forces.

C. Police and para-military was neither trained nor adequately equiped to deal with highly trained and well-equiped militants.

D. Police and paramilitary was out-numbered.

Now the situation is different as compared to what it was a few months ago (if I go with what ISPR is telling us). IF the militant's network is broken and if their capacity of waging war or mutiny is crippled (through destroying their weapon stashes etc., through cutting their finances, through stopping them from fresh recruitments etc), than Army has achieved its objective. And IF this objective is achieved, than the militants/terrorists should be 'soft' enough by now to be dealt by the police and the paramilitary.

Nobody is saying that the ***** built over time (which is a clear indication that all the intelligence was failed miserably OR the ***** was allowed to accumulate deliberately) can be cleaned in moments. But the operation is going on for months now and it is neither in the favor of the people of Sawat nor in the favor of Army to remain in this situation for long. In my opinion, policing and running after few criminals is not the job of military, it is the job of police and paramilitary.

And Soldier, next time if you wish to reply to my post, please keep my 'sensibility' and 'personality' and 'profession' out of the discussion. You have all the right to doubt about everything but you certainly have no right to throw mud on me publicly.

You are again stuck to the same stance that these hardcore killers must be dealt with by police and paramilitary etc, but unfortunately our police or para-military are NOT trained for the job. You and i are amply clear on the capabilities, motivation level and dedication of these two forces. Now yes i also agree that it is their (police /paramilitary's) job to take on these kinda situation as you must have seen the same where you live, but sorry to say we dont have that resources to 'convert' these 'weak' forces into capable fighting machines or atleast to bring them to the level of the regular military. These 'luxuries' cost money! Which you and many alike are not willing to spend.

Your attention is diverted towards yours (and the HOLY Tax Payers) pockets when something to this effect (modernization of forces) is talked about. i being a soldier also wants that when i fight i should also be supported by technologies like net centric warfare, real time imagery, satellite communications, night vision equipment, tons of fire support readily available on my single call, squadrons of fighters readily airborne on my single request etc etc, but Alas! that cant be done as our respectable tax payers cant afford to buy these 'luxuries' for the forces (to include police and paramilitary), but still we the poorly equipped military (as compared to the West and to the dream force as you the tax payer dream of) has been perfectly taking head on fight with the SAME militants which have given a bloody nose to the Yanks (and world's most mightiest fighting machines) since the last 8 years in two different theaters!

It is simply because our soldiers may it be police, para military or army dont ask questions before they enter a enemy prone area. Try to visit some simulated military exercises of your residence's military and try to compare that with ours, i bet we might not be having those luxuries even at peace locations as they can produce and make available in actual theaters of war. Meaning thereby that they have stuff to spend and train dedicated forces for dedicated purposes!! They can raise, equip and train any type of dedicated force for any dedicated/specific task, as opposed to inability to even do the same for the forces at our hand.

Sir BATMANNOW has been clinging to his thread about raising more troops but you have seen its fate; just because we cant afford it!

Just try to 'count' the intelligence and security agencies that the US has, i am sure you would need a piece of paper to jot down all of them, now after having such kinda assets if they can kick the shyt out of the entire world who need to worry! But with the assets that we can afford if we can manage a similar response to a common enemy, who's success would you count it?

You talk of equipment and training, but forgot to take into consideration about the expenditures that it requires to make up these things. Our forces buy f-16s and people like you rant about starving own people, but forget that it is this equipment' that would make many actions successful! The military spend money on research in order to get something new and viable for the men to fight emerging trends in warfare, but people like you get worried about clean water.

Do you think the transformation that our military has gone through from fighting a conventional war to take on special ops was done free of cost!!! i think you must have thought that it would be simple to construct facilities to mock up these kinda ops and to buy equipment (bullet proof jackets, personal NVGs, special CQB weapons, clothing, vehicles, practicing air assault in conjunction to ground troops etc etc) required for these ops.

We were spending money to train men against the conventional enemy previously, now we spend money on training men both for conventional and special/unconventional fight, so do you think that it had happened in the same budget? or may be you should have suggested; 'well lets leave india out if it, and just concentrate on the internal shyt!'

It is easy to say 'train' and 'equip' them better, but it takes something more on ground to do it.

i'll love to provide our police and paramilitary the SAME training and equipment that out armed forces utilizes, but would you fund it?

Currently the Army and its special force (SSG) only had the capability to counter these well trained and equipped militants, so it has to be the military to do the job.

If we go by your stance then i think we should have waited another 5 years to bring our police and para-military to a standard where they can independently take on these bastards. Oh BTW, i have still not provided them with air support and heavy fire support (the $$ for these 'luxuries still lay pending)

Now you might say that why the police and paramilitary had not been trained properly on these lines from the start. You are right but again after running a complete circle we come back to the same point of origin and that is MONEY!

Who dont want to have a PDA, a laptop, unlimited internet etc , but how many can afford to have it?

So do you think that we dont want to do what you are suggesting us to do, but again who is going to afford it. So a common sense answer to all this would be: Better train a SINGLE force who can do many (NOT ALL) jobs/tasks in addition to its primary job (the job that also requires some bits of the the other 'extra' jobs) so that it can be employed as a all rounder!

Or may be you could also suggest raising a new force even for "bhal safai" (canal cleaning)

Constructing a garrison which has a direct bearing on the current situation makes you look at tax payers' pocket but still you dont get tired of complaining!!

You know what is the actual problem with you, you have actually forgotten our (mine and many other Pakistanis) actual worth and your prolonged stay away from the country had made you an idealist as the place where you reside has many perfectionist around . Come back some day and see where we stand today.

-----

As for your concern regarding the 'muddy' thing, i never touched your profession or personality, but yes when you are going to talk stuff that doubts your understanding about a certain issue, that would be highlighted on spot.

 

[qsaark]

You have got so allergic to my posts that you started typing a 'rebuttal' as soon as you saw my reply. From the opening sentence of your post, this is obvious that you did not read my post.

You wrote "You are again stuck to the same stance that these hardcore killers must be dealt with by police and paramilitary etc" and I wrote:

"Now the situation is different as compared to what it was a few months ago (if I go with what ISPR is telling us). IF the militant's network is broken and if their capacity of waging war or mutiny is crippled (through destroying their weapon stashes etc., through cutting their finances, through stopping them from fresh recruitments etc), than Army has achieved its objective. And IF this objective is achieved, than the militants/terrorists should be 'soft' enough by now to be dealt by the police and the paramilitary".

Even in an earlier post I wrote "There are no two opinions that Military's involvement was needed to control the situation in Sawat".

You continued and wrote "but unfortunately our police or para-military are NOT trained for the job", and that is what I wrote earlier:

"the police got failed, the paramilitary got failed. Why they were failed? Due to the following reasons:

A. In the earlier days of operation, the public opinion was on the side of the militants and both the police and paramilitary was composed of perhaps a significant number of the local inhabitants, hence they were also divided on whether to go after the militants or not.

B. Corruption in Police and to lesser extent in the para-military forces.

C. Police and para-military was neither trained nor adequately equipped to deal with highly trained and well-equipped militants.

D. Police and paramilitary was out-numbered.". So I am fully aware of what you tried to educate me in first 3 or 4 paragraphs.

You wrote "but still we the poorly equipped military (as compared to the West and to the dream force as you the tax payer dream of) has been perfectly taking head on fight with the SAME militants which have given a bloody nose to the Yanks (and world's most mightiest fighting machines) since the last 8 years in two different theaters!

It is simply because our soldiers may it be police, para military or army don’t ask questions before they enter a enemy prone area." and I say that is not entirely true. The one thing that separates military from the rest of the professions/institutions is 'discipline'. And 'discipline' of US armed forces is not any less if not better than the 'discipline' of Pakistan's armed forces. Pakistan's military is performing better because they have Home Turf Advantage which US and NATO can only dream of. Second the Pakistan Army, among the inhabitants of Sawat, is not considered an occupation force unlike the US/NATO forces in Afghanistan/Waziristan.

Regarding the training and equipping the Police/Paramilitary.....I know what it takes. One thing you learn and learn very quickly in USA is 'finances' because if you don’t learn this, you cant survive here unlike Pakistan where there is always someone who can help you out. I am not saying that things would happen overnight, but the Police and paramilitary even in its current state can handle the situation if Army has already done most of the job. Advisers from the PA can always be stationed alongside the police and paramilitary for their assistance. But the permanent presence of Army for policing and law-enforcement is neither a sustainable solution nor a job fit for the Army.

You wrote "You know what is the actual problem with you, you have actually forgotten our (mine and many other Pakistanis) actual worth and your prolonged stay away from the country had made you an idealist as the place where you reside has many perfectionist around". No my friend, that is not true. I may be physically live in USA but my soul is always in Pakistan. This is a country my parents call home, where my closest and dearest friends live, Pakistan has given me an identity. Why you think I spend so much time on this forum if Pakistan and its inhabitants worth nothing to me? Neither it is about perfection, nothing is perfect in USA. It is all about principles, and justice.

 

[Xeric]

i'll omit the remaining of your post and just take on the quoted one:

Pakistan's military is performing better because they have Home Turf Advantage which US and NATO can only dream of.
Well which 'HOME" advantage are you talking about exactly?

By home advantage any militaryman would assume that you are well conversant with the terrain and weather. Now as the Army had never been to that area as they have never been station there (because of no cantts-this is another reason to build cantonments at a place so that the military could conduct exercises, could plan war games and roam around so that they can become conversant with the ground/terrain, routes, impediments/expedients available etc etc) so how could you claim that the military was operating on a home turf? The locals were against the operation, the terrain was hostile, the militants had local support, the terrain was new, the tactics was new, the approach was new etc etc, so my dear our situation is not 'very' different then the situation that the ISAF face today. We were hated equally as are/were the Americans, it took A LOT to mold the situation to our advantage. A few examples can be:
Flogging and stuff.

Beheading and Stuff.

Being 60 miles away from the Capital and stuff.

Dual facet approach by the militants and stuff.

Cheating and breaching of pacts and stuff.

100s of sacrifices.

Degeneration of public support for the Army and Stuff...

......etc etc and stuff.


Second the Pakistan Army, among the inhabitants of Sawat, is not considered an occupation force unlike the US/NATO forces in Afghanistan/Waziristan.



First, if you think that the Pakistani Military had not faced the 'similar' situation as did the NATO/US force face in Afghanistan as regards to be 'occupation' forces then you are wrong! Did yiu forget that when the Army was sent in initially at the very very start years back which kind of resistance did it face both from the militants and the local populace? Oh yes they also considered us as 'occupants'. A place (the Tribal Areas/FATA) where even the provincial machinery failed to exercise control and where they dont even allow Police to operate how cold they welcome the military and allow it to operate at will? Yes we also faced the similar situation but it took more than money ($10 billion that you claim has been eaten up by Mush), blood (all those sacrifice which the military has to give when in went in ill-equipped and ill-trained as regards to COIN) and disrespect (you know it well-how they hated us, moreover the bashing that we got from the Nation) to bring the situation at a favorable footing as of today.

When you trumping the US/NATO song in your post you forgiot to mention the technologocal advancement, world support and lots of $$ that they had to spend as compared to our militay which has none of these. Yes they were occupant forces and it matter litle to them. How would it affect somebody when it had already crossed the line and stepped inside another's territory? Ok the populace would hate them for ever, but which populace? The Talibans or the Al Qaeda-their chronic enemies? The actual local population had already fled to Pakistan or elsewhere. Ther NATO/US had the so called government on their side and they used it to their utmost advantage. So let's not try to hide their 'FAILURE' by talking age old lame tactics. i very well understand COIN. i wonder how the locals (omitting talibans and AQ fighters) who piss when they see goras with guns could have made the 'occupation' effect so pronounced that it could have played any vital role in their failure, though i dont totally omit its influence on their success/failure rate!

P.S. i read your posts quite carefully bro, i make use of my two eyes, atleast!

 

[qsaark]

Capturing Kashmir has always been a dream of Pakistan Army hence Army has always been into planning and training for a possible fight in mountainous terrain. What kinds of soldiers were sent to fight in Kargil? Were they not train to fight in mountains and cold weather? Moreover Pakistan Army is also fighting in Siachen, again a mountainous terrain. Troops have been trained in Skardu and Gilgit. So I don’t buy that terrain or weather was/is something new for the Pakistani troops.

Pakistan Army started winning once public opinion turned against the militants, and all of us know how this happened. Pakistani troops are not composed of Martians; they are still Pakistanis coming from the various parts of the country. Hence we all know each other's culture, customs etc. Above all we are all Muslims. If this is not ‘home turf advantage’ than nothing is. So I still hold to my above two arguments and you are more than welcome to reject them.

 

[SSGPA1]

Quite a few people have written their comments because they dislike Zardari and that dislikeness takes over their intellect.

Everyone against this base should understand (or atleast try to) military logistics. This base will provide housing, hosiptal and other facilities fort he soildiers and it will also provide a basic maintenance shop for the equipment.

At the same time this base will provide landing space for helos and also a storage facility for weapons.

Don't look at this base as a Zaradri objective but look at this base as PA and Pakistan objective announced by Zardari.

PA will stay in Swat and other areas for a longer period of time because besides the Taliban, we also have to deal with anti Pakistan elements in Afghanistan ...

Also, if you want schools and hospital built in this area then please support this base.

This is an excellent investment.

 

[fatman17]

More funds allocated to equip army with modern weapons

* Government earmarks $1.28 billion for AFDP in 2009-10

By Sajid Chaudhry

ISLAMABAD: The government has allocated Rs 102.4 billion ($1.28 billion) for the Armed Forces Development Plan (AFDP) in the upcoming fiscal year 2009-10, Finance Secretary Salman Siddique said on Sunday.

Former president Pervez Musharraf initiated the AFDP to modernise the country’s armed forces through an initial target of $15 billion by 2015. However, the programme’s target was later increased to $25 billion. The government has been financing the strategic programme with an annual allocation of $1 billion for the last four years. The present government allocated $1.2 billion for the plan during 2008-09, and has allocated $1.28 billion for 2009-10 to meet the growing defence requirements of the armed forces. This amount is allocated out of the budget.

The AFDP is vital to increase the country’s defence preparedness, and respond to national security threats from both internal and external factors. The recent rise in acts of terrorism and insurgency have required the government to upgrade the country’s weapons, and obtain access to the latest technologies available in the world markets in order to adequately address the security challenges. Official sources said allocations made in foreign exchange for the AFDP are mainly used for imports.

 

[Elmo]

Was this just to score points of was it done to make way for your entry in this thread? From where did you find this? i and others have been mentioning this again and again that even if military presence anywhere (including other armies to include the West) do bring luxmi wherever they go but this is not at all a justification to militarize a dejected portion! Let's keep this stupid school of though out of this discussion.

"Was this just to score points of was it done to make way for your entry in this thread?". You missed (c) None of the above. As for keeping "stupid school of though out of this discussion", the day you learn to spell the word "thought", I might even consider giving an ear to such a suggestion. Till then I am knee-deep in this conversation.

Coming back, there are a couple of issues at hand here (and there will be an overlap with what qsaark here has been rightly stating):

1. Opening up cantonments: That implies long-term involvement in the region and inadvertently spending lots of money — or to be more precise the “holy tax-payers' money”. Why not set up a temporary setting and spend that money equipping the forces – police and FC – which are supposed to protect the areas in the first place and will be needed to do so in case the army has to move out to defend some other border/frontier.
If an FC personnel received a paltry 3,500 rupees (which the ISPR now proudly states has been doubled to 7,000 rupees), poor training etc etc, the personnel will not have any incentive to give his best. The army has to keep the local security forces in foresight for bolstering any short- and long- term commitments — take the case of Afghanistan where US forces patrol alongside local forces. The army cannot work in isolation because this is your own frontier, not a foreign shore. You have understand the local socio-political factors at play. Spend the money in bettering the pay structure...

2. Cantonments bringing development: (And this response is also for SSPGA). Fine there is development, but the development is primarily for the ease of the military and secondarily for the citizens. So in case an area never sees a cantonment, it should just give up on expecting development?

3. You spoke of upgrading of equipments and newer technologies (such as net centric warfare, real time imagery, satellite communications, night vision equipment) being at your disposal. Do you really need all of this for the Taliban as of now? How about another solution: we cut down on the housing authorities and expansion of cantonments and divert all these funds to the upgrades. And yes "respectable tax payers" will not be willing to give the government any more money for bad governance. And they are heavily taxed in any case. When the government cuts income tax from one’s monthly salary, it isn’t really appeasing to know that it has gone down the drain. And as for the militants giving a head-on fight to the world’s mightiest armies etc etc, well that should make you think of what is going wrong. Obviously technology hasn’t given anyone a head start against these insurgents, so it might be a good idea to invest in much less tech-savvy and more basic things such as good intelligence, increased patrolling, more security checks, and lest one forget, good governance once the main thrust of the military operation is over.

4. Well when we can wait for five years (starting 2002) for the military to even consider COIN seriously, the least we can do now is to simultaneously train the police and paramilitary forces to deal with these insurgents. Think long-term, not only short-term.

5. Two corrections: (a) according to the DG-ISPR training in COIN was started two years back and was previously not even part of the conventional warfare training provided at PMA. So the entire army is not capable of dealing this insurgency, certain units are, probably including the SSG commandoes. The army like the police and paramilitary forces are at a trial and error stage. (b) The Rangers are deployed in Sindh and the Punjab while the FC is its equivalent in NWFP and Balochistan.

6. Lastly, we all choose our professions, most of us are not forced into it, and should thereby learn to live with the decision we have made and the consequences. It’s like if you choose to be a doctor, then you can’t complain if you are on call every three days, have to put in long hours, are highly underpaid despite having spent 5 years doing your undergrad and at least another five doing your post-grad and have little to say in terms of social status and the monetary retribution you receive. As of now, there are very few sceptics of the army operation or broadly speaking of the way the army is doing business. So it’s time you stopped complaining/grumbling about how the army is not supported and appreciate the way the media and people of this country have given unrelenting support to the operation, with newspapers and TV channels running the ISPR’s press releases as its lead stories and doing questioning very little for three weeks back to back.

Military being the last line of defence cant shake hands and cut deals, neither can they pamper and concentrate entirely on collateral damage.

Revisit the peace agreements in South Waziristan and the adjoining tribal areas and you’ll know who exactly was the peace broker in those instances and why.

If there ss still someone who thinks that the situation in Swat doesnt merit military's involvement i can do nothing but can only salute him (with both hands, actually)

An interesting sight…you saluting with both your hands. Do put up a pic on this thread, never knew the army also dispensed a degree in humour to its soldiers

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

1. Opening up cantonments: That implies long-term involvement in the region and inadvertently spending lots of money — or to be more precise the “holy tax-payers' money”. Why not set up a temporary setting and spend that money equipping the forces – police and FC – which are supposed to protect the areas in the first place and will be needed to do so in case the army has to move out to defend some other border/frontier.

As I mentioned earlier, part of the reason behind the setting up of a cantonment is also psychological, in terms of reassuring the local populace that the GoP and military will not leave them at the mercy of the Taliban, as well as sending a clear message to the Taliban that they will not 'tire' the Army out of Swat.

The construction of a permanent cantonment does not exclude investment in local institutions, nor is there any reason to believe that the funding required to construct and maintain will be so exorbitant as to prevent the necessary funding being directed into local institutions.

In addition, there seems to be this idea in the arguments for 'investment in local law enforcement', that somehow the capacity building of local law enforcement will be accomplished in a matter of months. Even with the resources being directed into the Frontier Corps, it has been estimated by some analysts that the FC will not achieve the ability to function independently of the military for 3-4 years.

In case of even less trained and equipped forces such as the Levies, Scouts and Constabulary (leave alone the police) the GoP is looking at an even longer period of time before these forces can be brought up to par.

You cannot simply allow a vacuum to exist while local LEA capacity building reaches completion.

And in the meantime, as operations continue in Swat and possible expand into other agencies in FATA, the need for a local base is unarguable. And if we are to spend whatever is necessary to maintain such a base for a decade or half, then might as well make it permanent, in case there is need to call in Army support given that events in Afghanistan will continue to have repercussions for Pakistan and we cannot control those events.

If an FC personnel received a paltry 3,500 rupees (which the ISPR now proudly states has been doubled to 7,000 rupees), poor training etc etc, the personnel will not have any incentive to give his best. The army has to keep the local security forces in foresight for bolstering any short- and long- term commitments — take the case of Afghanistan where US forces patrol alongside local forces. The army cannot work in isolation because this is your own frontier, not a foreign shore. You have understand the local socio-political factors at play. Spend the money in bettering the pay structure...

The FC comes under the interior ministry - and what is wrong with the ISPR pointing out that their pay has been doubled? IIRC, the GoP said that the Frontier Corp pay had been brought up to par with that of the Army, and the family of FC soldiers now also qualified for benefits as is the case in the Army.

Secondly, the Army does work in conjunction with the FC and other local para-militaries. Even going back a few years, many of the patrols and checkpoints in FATA were joint FC/Army. And that has continued in the current Swat operation as well.

I find your assertions here rather incorrect.

2. Cantonments bringing development: (And this response is also for SSPGA). Fine there is development, but the development is primarily for the ease of the military and secondarily for the citizens. So in case an area never sees a cantonment, it should just give up on expecting development?

Complete Strawman - no one is arguing that development only occur with the establishment of cantonments. What is being pointed out is that cantonments bring about development, whether as a secondary impact of catering to the needs of the cantonment or deliberate outreach and relationship building with the local communities by the Army.

In the mean time, one hopes that the GoP and GoNWFP will play their part and make any Army efforts at development look pathetic.

3. You spoke of upgrading of equipments and newer technologies (such as net centric warfare, real time imagery, satellite communications, night vision equipment) being at your disposal. Do you really need all of this for the Taliban as of now? How about another solution: we cut down on the housing authorities and expansion of cantonments and divert all these funds to the upgrades. And yes "respectable tax payers" will not be willing to give the government any more money for bad governance. And they are heavily taxed in any case. When the government cuts income tax from one’s monthly salary, it isn’t really appeasing to know that it has gone down the drain. And as for the militants giving a head-on fight to the world’s mightiest armies etc etc, well that should make you think of what is going wrong. Obviously technology hasn’t given anyone a head start against these insurgents, so it might be a good idea to invest in much less tech-savvy and more basic things such as good intelligence, increased patrolling, more security checks, and lest one forget, good governance once the main thrust of the military operation is over.

Actually yes we do need all of the above for the Taliban. The judicious and accurate use of air-power and proper intelligence and coordinated operations can provide an even greater advantage to the military in operating in this terrain and reduce civilian casualties, especially as we attempt to rehabilitate the displaced population and deal with the remnants of the Taliban simultaneously.

4. Well when we can wait for five years (starting 2002) for the military to even consider COIN seriously, the least we can do now is to simultaneously train the police and paramilitary forces to deal with these insurgents. Think long-term, not only short-term.

Again - no one is suggesting that local institutions not be developed, in fact the Army has repeatedly stated that it would prefer local forces act as the primary COIN force, with the Army playing a supporting role when needed.

The cantonment will serve as a base for that supporting role when the local institutions mature, and a base for the primary role it will likely have to play for the next few years.

5. Two corrections: (a) according to the DG-ISPR training in COIN was started two years back and was previously not even part of the conventional warfare training provided at PMA. So the entire army is not capable of dealing this insurgency, certain units are, probably including the SSG commandoes. The army like the police and paramilitary forces are at a trial and error stage. (b) The Rangers are deployed in Sindh and the Punjab while the FC is its equivalent in NWFP and Balochistan.

You are correct that probably not all 200,000 plus infantry are trained for COIN, but we will not be deploying all 200,000 plus infantry in the West, even accounting for rotation.

The biggest difference between the lack of COIN training in the local paramilitaries and the Army is that the Army is already very well equipped and trained in basic tactics and weapons and extremely disciplined. The only additional requirements would be further training in COIN tactics, but the building blocks (that are the most time consuming) are already catered for.

6. Lastly, we all choose our professions, most of us are not forced into it, and should thereby learn to live with the decision we have made and the consequences. It’s like if you choose to be a doctor, then you can’t complain if you are on call every three days, have to put in long hours, are highly underpaid despite having spent 5 years doing your undergrad and at least another five doing your post-grad and have little to say in terms of social status and the monetary retribution you receive. As of now, there are very few sceptics of the army operation or broadly speaking of the way the army is doing business. So it’s time you stopped complaining/grumbling about how the army is not supported and appreciate the way the media and people of this country have given unrelenting support to the operation, with newspapers and TV channels running the ISPR’s press releases as its lead stories and doing questioning very little for three weeks back to back.

All well and good - unfortunately when criticism does arrive, it tends to be nitpicking over nothing, like the 'shor' over the construction of this military cantonment.