Possible steps to counter the rising threat from IAF ?

[Irfan Baloch]

Masterkhan.

I doubt you can send s fully loaded thunder or f16 even 200km into Indian airspace.

I feel you would not recover mentally if even two dozen thunders or falcons where lost over Indian soil.

You hi end nos are too small.

Where as India has even today over 200 mki already in service and over 100 mi29/smt/k.

so you willing to loose 200 MKI?
being generous no?

I think even a loss of 30 such planes with deflate your superiority complex

 

[Donatello]

Sirji
I cant agree with that.For entering in to Indian cities you need to surpass 200+ Su 30MKI .If you are talking about
a scenarion in first of next decade you will Rafale ,FGFA and LCA in addition to that.Then add some 60 Mig 29K
It is a pipedrea to attack India in our soil

Kid, don't be stupid. The planes you mentioned have yet to see FOC with IAF. Last, Pakistan doesn't need to send combat aircraft, your major cities and bases are well within the range of our stand off weapons.

 

[Thorough Pro]

I have never gotten in to any dick measuring contest and I don't want to now, because there are so many variable in a war scenario that even the best planners are never sure of the outcome and that is why they have backups to all backup plans.

I am also not sure if I would be succeed, but let me help you broaden your tunnel vision a bit. Your twin engine "Maha Monsters" may have longer range, higher payload and longer sortie times, but ultimately they will need to go back to take fuel, armaments or possibly a new jock, if they can find a place to land. You may assume and bank on that our single engine "show case beauties" may be afraid to venture out into your territory, but our Shaheens, Ghouri's, and Baburs will not, they will be flying home at the first sign of attack to take out all your close to mid range air bases.

Now your tunnel vision may tell you that's not a problem as "Maha Bharat" is a big country with many more bases still intact to operate from, but quite possibly they will not be equipped to support all "colours of IAF's rainbow" in terms of technical staff, spares, armaments, etc and after the first wave of attack, your ability to launch any offensive/ defensive capability would be significantly reduced. With the extended range and accuracy of our tactical conventional missiles if we take out even 10 major air bases, IAF's capability to launch any missions would be reduced by more than 50%, and that is just on one front. What if during the same time China moves a few of its squadrons near indian borders, you'll be down to whatever number you wana guess. and I am not saying that we will not suffer any losses, yes we will, but the difference in two strategies gives us an edge.

The more I look at paf the more I realise how limited your doctrine is to air power.

Your air force with it's single engine philosophy of lightweight fighters with quick turnround times and good awacss cover is based on maintaining your air space only.

You have no desire or designs to hit India massive strategic depth and military infrastructure which is stretched over the subcontinent.

India will be dictating how the air war pans out as you guys will ve purely defensive and respond to iaf strikes only.

The two doctrines are opposites completely.

Iaf twin engined mki and soon rafale and jags abd mirages versus your small agile falcons and thunders over paf airspace only

 

[rohitshubham]

I have never gotten in to any dick measuring contest and I don't want to now, because there are so many variable in a war scenario that even the best planners are never sure of the outcome and that is why they have backups to all backup plans.

I am also not sure if I would be succeed, but let me help you broaden your tunnel vision a bit. Your twin engine "Maha Monsters" may have longer range, higher payload and longer sortie times, but ultimately they will need to go back to take fuel, armaments or possibly a new jock, if they can find a place to land. You may assume and bank on that our single engine "show case beauties" may be afraid to venture out into your territory, but our Shaheens, Ghouri's, and Baburs will not, they will be flying home at the first sign of attack to take out all your close to mid range air bases.

Now your tunnel vision may tell you that's not a problem as "Maha Bharat" is a big country with many more bases still intact to operate from, but quite possibly they will not be equipped to support all "colours of IAF's rainbow" in terms of technical staff, spares, armaments, etc and after the first wave of attack, your ability to launch any offensive/ defensive capability would be significantly reduced. With the extended range and accuracy of our tactical conventional missiles if we take out even 10 major air bases, IAF's capability to launch any missions would be reduced by more than 50%, and that is just on one front. What if during the same time China moves a few of its squadrons near indian borders, you'll be down to whatever number you wana guess. and I am not saying that we will not suffer any losses, yes we will, but the difference in two strategies gives us an edge.

so you mean to say as of now there is no threat perception from IAF and PAF can launch a strike deep into Indian territory while the Indian can't .

 

[SrNair]

India is neighbor to two air-powers, not one. And those two are close and strong allies of each other.

All Pakistan needs is security of its own skies and an ability to strike into India.

All of Pakistan's air assets have higher serviceability, faster turn-around, and lower cost of operation (for sustainability). We do not lack any serious ability. Early warning, BVR capability, SAMs (though not as many as necessary), stand-off weaponry, cruise missiles - you name it and we have it.

So, India may be a regional power, but Pakistanis are not much concerned. We have our bases covered. India can do its best or worst. It would not accomplish any serious aim that it might have.

But you should consider the geopolitics also.Confrontation between India and Pakistan is one thing.Interfering of China in to that is other thing.Because if they did that then other players will also show their presence in the field.Current scenario is risky for IAF for an offensive option.But Rafale and FGFA would change that scenario in future.

 

[MastanKhan]

Sirji
I cant agree with that.For entering in to Indian cities you need to surpass 200+ Su 30MKI .If you are talking about
a scenarion in first of next decade you will Rafale ,FGFA and LCA in addition to that.Then add some 60 Mig 29K
It is a pipedrea to attack India in our soil

Sir,

Believe that on you own peril---.

Ummm Lahore city in 1965. You call that "not defensive"?

Children should read twice before having a knee jerk reaction.

 

[SrNair]

hi,

!
Bofors did prove themselves in a mountain war where the enemy is holding ground.What could the paf do---pak army needed more ground troop support and more sam's to hold their positions.

this assumption is quite, wrong! yes sir! 18,000 feet above , how you can hit a target, which you cant see? i guss you need airforce in "reconnaissance" role to identify the right direction of fire. infact IA made a rain of shelling in early days of the war & without any knowledge of its targets, but as IA tried to cllimb up, when ever , from which ever side on any of the points they became simply ducks to our snnippers.
later they changed thier tactics & used the quality of thier weapons, with quantity of thier mens on the grounds.
i guss , you can say that it was a perfect combination of both "Bofors & Mirage-2000s". which made indian infantry climb up !
but for me, as been "crazy soldier" in kargill war 'Mirage-2000s" was the ultimate fighting machine, which made a huge diference there.

Mirage-2000s, were used for electronic warfare, reconnaissance and ground attack. This fighter delivers its weapons with pinpoint accuracy. In addition to carrying free-fall bombs, it also fires the laser-guided bombs with deadly effects. In fact, it was this weapon that caused considerable devastation to our bunkers on the ridges at Tiger Hill and Muntho Dhalo. In the Mirage attack on Muntho Dhalo,our troops suffered heavy casualties. The targets were identified along with the IA and engaged by day and by night in precision attacks by Mirage 2000s and Jaguars. Supply lines, logistic bases and strong points were destroyed. As a result, the IA was able to pursue its operations at a faster & rapid movement and with fewer risks.
To obviate the threat from SAMs, bombing was done accurately from 30,000 feet above sea level or about 10,000 feet above the terrain.The fact that the we, fired more than 100 shoulder fired SAMs against IAF aircraft indicates the great intensity of the our air defences in the area, BUT hit by SAMS in the early days of the war, IAF succsesfuly changed thier tactics & dennied locking ons to us
thus, IAF played the most important role to reach thier aims & objectives, i was a infantry man there, & i feel that if ! PAF was allowed , to counter IAF in its "reconnaissance and ground attacks", the story would be very different today.
i guss, its better to have some words from dear muradk sir! on this subject?

AFAIK Mirage had Mig 29 support
IAF knew that if they sent Mirage for solo.performance PAF will take the risk.That is why they Mig 29 as a strike package .

Sir,

Believe that on you own peril---.



Children should read twice before having a knee jerk reaction.

This is the ground reality :wink:

Kid, don't be stupid. The planes you mentioned have yet to see FOC with IAF. Last, Pakistan doesn't need to send combat aircraft, your major cities and bases are well within the range of our stand off weapons.

Stand off weapons.This abour Airforce.
Planes seriously ??
LCA ok.But Rafale
Again did you read thst post?
I was talking about a scenario in next decade.

 

[Donatello]

AFAIK Mirage had Mig 29 support
IAF knew that if they sent Mirage for solo.performance PAF will take the risk.That is why they Mig 29 as a strike package .



This is the ground reality :wink:



Planes seriously ??
LCA ok.But Rafale?
Again did you read thst post?
I was talking about a scenario in next decade.

PAF is not sleeping in the next decade, as evident by the previous decade.

 

[MilSpec]

Kid, don't be stupid. The planes you mentioned have yet to see FOC with IAF. Last, Pakistan doesn't need to send combat aircraft, your major cities and bases are well within the range of our stand off weapons.

And India doesn't have any standoff weapons and all your major cities and military installations are protected by three tier ABM and SAM, and thus impenetrable..right?

I have never gotten in to any dick measuring contest and I don't want to now, because there are so many variable in a war scenario that even the best planners are never sure of the outcome and that is why they have backups to all backup plans.

I am also not sure if I would be succeed, but let me help you broaden your tunnel vision a bit. Your twin engine "Maha Monsters" may have longer range, higher payload and longer sortie times, but ultimately they will need to go back to take fuel, armaments or possibly a new jock, if they can find a place to land. You may assume and bank on that our single engine "show case beauties" may be afraid to venture out into your territory, but our Shaheens, Ghouri's, and Baburs will not, they will be flying home at the first sign of attack to take out all your close to mid range air bases.

Now your tunnel vision may tell you that's not a problem as "Maha Bharat" is a big country with many more bases still intact to operate from, but quite possibly they will not be equipped to support all "colours of IAF's rainbow" in terms of technical staff, spares, armaments, etc and after the first wave of attack, your ability to launch any offensive/ defensive capability would be significantly reduced. With the extended range and accuracy of our tactical conventional missiles if we take out even 10 major air bases, IAF's capability to launch any missions would be reduced by more than 50%, and that is just on one front. What if during the same time China moves a few of its squadrons near indian borders, you'll be down to whatever number you wana guess. and I am not saying that we will not suffer any losses, yes we will, but the difference in two strategies gives us an edge.

Wow you have missiles? and thus you have countered the "rising threat from IAF" then time to close the thread.... May be you should suggest this to your Military Establishment, just keep inducting baburs and ghoris and shaheens, no need to waste money on second hand f16, j17's or j31..... I wonder why your military planners did not think of this earlier?

 

[SrNair]

PAF is not sleeping in the next decade, as evident by the previous decade.

Except JF 17 evolving development and induction we cant see any purchasing planning from PAF.

 

[Donatello]

Except JF 17 evolving development and induction we cant see any purchasing planning from PAF.

Yea, sorry they didn't get your email address to keep you informed.

 

[SQ8]

And India doesn't have any standoff weapons and all your major cities and military installations are protected by three tier ABM and SAM, and thus impenetrable..right?



Wow you have missiles? and thus you have countered the "rising threat from IAF" then time to close the thread.... May be you should suggest this to your Military Establishment, just keep inducting baburs and ghoris and shaheens, no need to waste money on second hand f16, j17's or j31..... I wonder why your military planners did not think of this earlier?

PDF has to be called "Deja vu central". This discussion has been had much before.. and much like the Matrix this will be its umpteenth cycle.

As I mentioned much elsewhere to you I believe and hence its sad we cannot find and repost the conversation; the PAF's purchase of the standoff platform was ahead of the IAF embracing the concept and was done so keeping in mind that most of PAF's fleet will have little or no chances of penetrating the IAF ADGE(Air Defence ground environment for those that done know) and hence needs to "flank" it.

The South African Raptor series was procured for this very purpose and is a VERY accurate and survivable system. The Mirages carry it primarily and it is kept for day 1 strikes on Indian C&C nodes, Ammo dumps near the battlefield.. and so on. Essentially targets that can be hit whilst still being within 10-15 minutes flight time within Pakistani Air space... Deeper targets can also be hit but the chances of a successful strike and returning alive drop exponentially.

There was reported consternation within the Indian military on the purchase of the standoff system which only sped up the IAF's desire to have a fighter that could maintain air dominance over Pakistani Airspace over an extended period of time(MKI). However, the aircraft did have certain shortcomings which are known to both.. and that too is best left undebated for lack of documented evidence and personal/national prestige.

Both forces have similar sensor-to-shooter time frames(and that is the most that is to be said about it).

Except JF 17 evolving development and induction we cant see any purchasing planning from PAF.

Im reposting something I said in another thread... which is pointless considering the clutching at straws that is the hallmark of most PDF discussions..


To avoid derailing from the core subject, lets return to the JF-17 Thunder and its purpose regarding the red bit. 71 onwards the PAF realizes that the air superiority it could have enjoyed over the IAF circa 65 was no longer going to be possible. First and foremost, unlike the rather laughable flying club type organization put up by the IAF in the earlier conflict.. the IAF had turned into a very well organized, well trained and well led force(and continues to be this way to date).

In light of this the PAF's earlier ability to outfly the IAF from a training standpoint has greatly diminished to near null. The JF-17 is in a way a product of the thinking that out fighting the IAF over a longer period of time is no longer possible and hence all efforts must be made to hold out the first week. The aircraft is designed from the outset to be very effective over Pakistani airspace via the usage of networking and superior situational awareness(at least from hour 1) over the IAF. One can get a clue from the interviews of PAF official posted here earlier on the loadout of the JF-17( 2 x BVR and not four on dual racks or otherwise) that the objective is to fire those two and survive. Which means that the PAF is no longer looking to rely on better pilots but rather more pilots in the sky at any given time. This seems odd but if one looks in retrospect the IAF will not be committing all its assets in whatever future limited conflict that ensues. The PAF takes this on by focusing on the idea of having two JF-17s in the air for every Sukhoi(as an exemplar). Further more, the focus in no longer to fight for control of the airspace over the length and breadth of Pakistan but rather over key installations. Local "air superiority" will be exchanged between both parties over the frontline.

In this regard the JF-17 becomes the ideal preventive strategy to an IAF that is equipped with superior hardware. The Sukhoi for e.g may have superior ranged radar but then it is dealing with much smaller fighters that require it to get closer to track. This allows those smaller aircraft to get in close as well(a tactic will used by Mig-21 Bisons in Cope India to their advantage). Moreover, the focus on higher sortie rates by the PAF means that there will be an onus on the IAF to keep sending up greater number of shooters into the fight: can it? will it overstress its assets into maintaining that air to air shooter ratio?

This depends on the intensity of the conflict. The greater the intensity.. the Greater the advantage shifts to the IAF. So if you are looking at an all out brawl.. the IAF will end the PAF's ability to interfere in the ground war in about a week or at most ten days. But if you looking at a intensified "skirmish".. chances are both sides will walk away with a similar number of body hits and bloody noses. The presence of nuclear weapons has pushed the conflict type towards the latter now, and that is what the PAF is hoping(but not necessarily ONLY geared for) to fight.

Source: JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 6] | Page 48

 

[DirtyCop]

Given to India's conventional superiority, Pakistan relies on nuclear deterrence......Anyways you air force fan-boys can carry on with your virtual dogfights.

 

[Gandhara]

why pakistan air wants counter IAF, why dont we frnds no more counter. Indian can even give u LCA if you want on loans if frnd becomth with India?
Peace

 

[MilSpec]

PDF has to be called "Deja vu central". This discussion has been had much before.. and much like the Matrix this will be its umpteenth cycle.

As I mentioned much elsewhere to you I believe and hence its sad we cannot find and repost the conversation; the PAF's purchase of the standoff platform was ahead of the IAF embracing the concept and was done so keeping in mind that most of PAF's fleet will have little or no chances of penetrating the IAF ADGE(Air Defence ground environment for those that done know) and hence needs to "flank" it.

The South African Raptor series was procured for this very purpose and is a VERY accurate and survivable system. The Mirages carry it primarily and it is kept for day 1 strikes on Indian C&C nodes, Ammo dumps near the battlefield.. and so on. Essentially targets that can be hit whilst still being within 10-15 minutes flight time within Pakistani Air space... Deeper targets can also be hit but the chances of a successful strike and returning alive drop exponentially.

There was reported consternation within the Indian military on the purchase of the standoff system which only sped up the IAF's desire to have a fighter that could maintain air dominance over Pakistani Airspace over an extended period of time(MKI). However, the aircraft did have certain shortcomings which are known to both.. and that too is best left undebated for lack of documented evidence and personal/national prestige.

Both forces have similar sensor-to-shooter time frames(and that is the most that is to be said about it).

In a thread titled as this one, one expects to find, cost and performance analysis of Missiles, Sams, potential aircrafts tactics etc, instead all I see is we have missiles and we will bring china, and an occasional ummah power instead of concentrating on what exactly the topic at hand suggests.

On topic, There was a thread on countering MKI maybe a few years back, where I had suggested the most potent system that serves as a counter to IAF is the SAAB Erieye systems. Any developments on that side.