Possible Russian S-400 sale to India and Pakistan's Response.

[Death In Fire]

I think S-400 will be used as a high end anti aircraft missile and not ABM.It will enable us to target PAF deep inside Pakistan and impose massive operational restrictions on PAF

 

[Vyom]

Using a SAM to implement no-fly zone on Pakistan in not good idea,simply a decoy,a missile to destroy it and location of battery is revealed.

Not the bright kind are you ?
1. Its a defense system so all airborne defense threats towards it will be nullified. (even those with a terminal velocity of mach 14)
2. Its a highly mobile system that is meant for deploy-shoot-scoot-redeploy. Didn't know Pakistan had over the horizon radar stations to detect launches.

Not that easy kiddo.

 

[zebra7]

I think S-400 will be used as a high end anti aircraft missile and not ABM.It will enable us to target PAF deep inside Pakistan and impose massive operational restrictions on PAF

Bingo, it provide protection of various near border bases from the Strandoff weapons like glide bomb and airlaunch cruise missile. Why members here discussing MIRV, Shaheen and other strategic weapons.

Bhai Logo Stick to the Topic only and contribute only what could be the response in the practical and economical valid terms only.

 

[shaheenmissile]

The nose cone of shaheen 3 looks like that upper portion is a lid that separates allowing multiple war heads inside to deploy....
Thats how mirv missiles work...all around the world

Applying the principle of " if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it probably is a duck" u can come to a logical conclusion ....

About side firing motors , consider this.... an rv travelling at mach 20- 25 a slight push by side firing motor AFTER REENTRY is complete will put off all the calculations of an abm...
If there is only a few meter distance from your calculated point of intercept and where rv actually is.... u have a failed intercept.....

I don't think shaheen or any strategic ballistic missile changes course after entering atmosphere as the mechanical and thermal forces will be too much to bear.
Atmosphere only begins 100 km above and all course corrections or dodging movements are dine above that altitude because much less force will be needed to do that in vacuum of space than after reentry.
And before reentry the RV assembly is jettisoned, warhed spins and splash down into atmosphere as true ballistic object

 

[zebra7]

kidoo,such high value strategic systems are only deployed to protect vital cities,command nods and plants,they are not deployed on borders.
If we assume your scenario it remains theoretical.

Dear Sir, could you stop refering others as Kid or Kidddo it looks offensive and prompt others to agressive response

 

[Mrc]

I don't think shaheen or any strategic ballistic missile changes course after entering atmosphere as the mechanical and thermal forces will be too much to bear.
Atmosphere only begins 100 km above and all course corrections or dodging movements are dine above that altitude because much less force will be needed to do that in vacuum of space than after reentry.
And before reentry the RV assembly is jettisoned, warhed spins and splash down into atmosphere as true ballistic object

We are off topic as pointed out ....
I might be wrong on reentry point...

I meant was descent not actual reentry into atmosphere

 

[banvanaxl]

mentality of INDIOTS : because they washed the russian retired carriers with cows piss its transformed into a new one ..supa carrier

Sigh!

@Icarus

 

[$@rJen]

There was an ABM treaty in force which is now defunct but itit limited any ABM development to track or engage targets travelling at less than 4.8 meters per second or Mach 14. That is the limit upon which both USA and Russia wrote their algorithm to be used in their ABM. ALTHOUGH treaty Is expired but mABM manufacturers still mention Mach 14 as their upper most limit for detection of any target. S-400 has also the same stated upper limit of target detection.
You can check it yourself from wherever you want.
Other than that you may be aware that there are only two systems in the world which have been specifically developed for ballistic missile defense and can defend against all types of ballistic missiles. The Russian A-35 and American GMD.
ALL other so called ABM are SAME with added capabilities of "trying " to hit an incoming ballistic missile.
The nature of the systems limits them to reliably defending against tactical ballistic missiles only. Which are generally missiles which don't rise above 50-60 kilometers and hence don't have speeds above 6-7 Machs. It is stated in S-400 specifications by manufacturer. They only mentioned tactical ballistic missiles and even that limits system's tracking range to just 60 kilometre as even those type of missiles are too fast.
S-400 or Patriot or any other SAM + ABM cannot defend against strategic ballistic missiles or missiles who rise to altitudes of above 100 kilometers and freefall to silly Mach numbers. These missiles are too fast to be tracked or hit by S-400, Patriot or any SAM+ABM.
SO that's why I said Shaheen series us safe. Nadr,Abdali and may Ghaznavi are vulnerable if India gets S-400.

OMG... you should really need to read more..

The ABM treaty was designed to limit the deployment of the system and further dev not to limit its capability... Again there's no such a thing as it can't intercept someting over 6 Mach... Show me a Single real Proof .....

And the Treaty expired in 2001-2 when US withdrew.. S-400 came in 2007 with the Anti-Ballistic capability.. it can strike a target at 125KM Altitude.. the shaheen will be the target. and S-400's missiles can travel as fast as 14 Mach so it can track and Intercetp....

See the Interceptor doesn't need to chase a missile to shoot it down... it faces an incoming BM heads on.. and the Missiles from S-400 can travell up to 6-14 Mach Speed. and at 152Km altitude.. more over if we put them at the Pakistani boder it'll cover Pakistani air space over 600KM... the chances of Intercepting and destrying the missiles over Pakistani airspace will be very reality

 

[shaheenmissile]

We are off topic as pointed out ....
I might be wrong on reentry point...

I meant was descent not actual reentry into atmosphere

No actually you wrote quite accurate and valid arguments,but I thought I will butt in and add to what you wrote.
Keep it up, I see you have interes and good observation in the subject

 

[kṣamā]

About side firing motors , consider this.... an rv travelling at mach 20- 25 a slight push by side firing motor AFTER REENTRY is complete will put off all the calculations of an abm...
If there is only a few meter distance from your calculated point of intercept and where rv actually is.... u have a failed intercept.....

Well physics says contrary. Velocity is a vector quantity. That is, it is directed. If we assume that the nuke is falling perpendicular to its original target and has a speed of Mach 20 then its velocity in y axsis is 0. Now to move the nuke around on its y axis you need to add thrust to it. Here is where you would say the base mounted side mounted thrusters will be used (which by the way are used RCS purposes). But this will have a side effect too. If the thrusters are fired only on one side (so as to give a Y component of thrust to re-target), the nose will flip the opposite side making the RV tumble, exposing the non sheilded areas and the harsh hypersonic atmosphere outside will, in scientific terms, shred the re-entry vehicle. The radioactive parts also won't survive the hypersonic fall in oxygen rich air.

 

[Sine Nomine]

Not the bright kind are you ?
1. Its a defense system so all airborne defense threats towards it will be nullified. (even those with a terminal velocity of mach 14)

During Gulf War 1991,Patriot Performed badly against simple Scuds, today Ballistic missile are sophisticated enough to dodge ABM's
S-400 is very capable system,it makes air space a nightmare for attackers but it's not impossible to tackle it.
The position which many Indian posters are claiming is not used by Indian Govt,These type of systems are used to defend strategic places and objectives,India if purchased will not deploy them in way many Poster's are discussing.

2. Its a highly mobile system that is meant for deploy-shoot-scoot-redeploy. Didn't know Pakistan had over the horizon radar stations to detect launches.

First of all it's not Operational in India.
2nd Shot-scoot tactics cant be applied on SAM batteries as they are applied on Ballistic and cruise missile TEL's.
All sensors are turned OFF for movement,which consumes time.
Pakistan is likely to Acquire Hi-Tech EW platforms from china to deal that threat.

Not that easy kiddo

But not impossible Uncle.

 

[graphican]

@st

aproving sale of s-400 to india does't mean that Russia refuse to sell anything to Pakistan, there are lot of other options available including top Russian fighters to Sams.

Indians do not buy a lolly pop without trying to cancel a negotiation or deny a future venture with Pakistan. Looking at 11 billion deal, what do you think would've been the condition from India side before they agreed to finalized this deal ?

 

[BABA AGHORI]

Indians do not buy a lolly pop without trying to cancel a negotiation or deny a future venture with Pakistan. Looking at 11 billion deal, what do you think would've been the condition from India side before they agreed to finalized this deal ?

Thread is about Pakistani response to S400, how and what for India does and to counter what, how it matters. Speak about options Pakistan has to counter S400 system.

Thanks..

 

[Maarkhoor]

Indians do not buy a lolly pop without trying to cancel a negotiation or deny a future venture with Pakistan. Looking at 11 billion deal, what do you think would've been the condition from India side before they agreed to finalized this deal ?

situation is change Russia already changed his policy India already sign ,many deals with USA, refuse Russian jets in favor of French money is not every thing but insult of being rejected far more. lets see what comes out.

 

[graphican]

situation is change Russia already changed his policy India already sign ,many deals with USA, refuse Russian jets in favor of French money is not every thing but insult of being rejected far more. lets see what comes out.

Even though Russians are willing to do business with Pakistan, the bigger customers always make the seller drop smaller deals in his favour. Russians will remain open for business but other than the deals which have already been finalised between Pakistan and Russia, expect future deals already been bargained in India's favour.