Possible Russian S-400 sale to India and Pakistan's Response.

[The Deterrent]

No,we do have MREVMREV for over a decade now.
You may have read NESCOM and Strategic command bosses making statements in which they say our missiles can Dodge enemy defenses.
How do you think this ability was achieved.
MIRV is expensive MREV isn't.
Luke i advised @Syed.Ali.Haider yesterday, you guys need to pull your heads out of the gutters if inferiority complex and stop down playing Pakistani technical prowes because either you are ignorant about that it just can't accept that a third world country could do that

Don't BS every other person with your stupid theories. Determining nuclear detonation yields by watching youtube videos, claiming India doesn't have nuclear weapons because of no youtube video of the detonation...just stop living in the fantasy land.

Just because YOU think that small warheads can be "packed" inside a Shaheen-II RV, doesn't means that its physically deployed too. The "nooks" that small will burn on re-entry, resulting in nothing but an expensive fireworks show. The bosses lie about the capabilities on a regular basis, just like they claimed Shaheen-II's range of 2500km (no fault on their part though, they are forced to do so for propaganda).

Similarly, presence of thrusters on Shaheen-II does not means that you can make the RV dance. They are for course-correction BEFORE re-entry. The TCS is jettisoned before re-entry. The RV is spinning while re-entering the atmosphere so you cannot wishfully change the trajectory and later change it back.

Accept the fact that we are still learning.

 

[south block]

I am skeptic about this news lets wait

In 2013 a combined team from IAI and Russia’s JSC Almaz-Antey MSDB made an unsolicited presentation to the IAF on an improved version of the S-400 ‘Triumph’ LR-SAM (a generation ahead of what has been sold to China) that would make use of IAI’s latest EL/M-2090U UHF-band active phased-array LRTR, the IAF began making hectic plans for procuring such a system for TMD within the foreseeable future.

Presently, the S-400 makes use of four different types of supersonic endo-atmospheric interceptor missiles (top speed of 4.8km/second): the 40N6E, the 9M96E2, the 48N6E3 and the 48N6E2, all of which are armed with HE-fragmentation warheads. What Russia has proposed for the IAF are two HYPERSONIC missiles, the exo-atmospheric 77N6-N and the endo-atmospheric 77N6-NI, having top speeds of 7km/second and also being the first SAMs of Russian origin to possess INERT warheads, i.e. warheads that do not contain any explosives and instead, are ‘hittile’, meaning they will destroy inbound TBMs, IRBMs or MRBMs by sheer force of impact.

The most revolutionary element of the 77N6-N and the 77N6-NI hypersonic LR-SAMs will be their on-board nose-mounted, Ka-band millimeter-wave active phased-array radar seekers and their real-time discrimination algorithms required for fire-control and guidance of hit-to-kill interceptors. To this end, the radar seekers have been designed with a rigid mount and narrow beam to provide precise angle metric accuracy. The combination of metric accuracy, wide bandwidth, and high Doppler-resolution capabilities makes them excellent sensors for real-time discrimination, for they can provide extremely accurate identification-processing estimates of motion differences caused by mass imbalances on real and threat-like targets.

The 300-tonne EL/M-2090U ULTRA C-22 LRTR features an array of 22 UHF-band transmit-receive modules (TRM) in a single clustered unit that has been designed so that modules can be easily swapped. Using UHF, rather than the higher frequency bands, has particular application at long ranges since it suffers from less signal loss in the atmosphere. A discriminating innovation of the ELM-2090U is the digitisation of the signals at the TRM-level, which allows more flexibility in beam-forming and shaping. For TMD along a sectoral footprint, IAI has developed the EL/M-2090U’s ULTRA C-6 version, which has six TRM clusters. Each cluster can electronically steer its beam through +/-60 degrees in azimuth and across a 40-degree sector in elevation. In all cases, the array can be mechanically tilted through 30 degrees in elevation to provide a total elevation coverage of 70 degrees. The larger C-22 version comes mounted on a rail assembly that can be mechanically slewed through +/100 degrees to give 320-degree coverage.

As per the IAF’s projections, there exists a requirement for 12 Batteries of the S-400 (each Battery using four TELs each housing four cannister-encased LR-SAMs), plus 12 C-6 LRTRs and two C-22 LRTRs. In other words, as per the IAF’s appreciation, a total of 11 strategic sectors are required to be protected against inbound TBMs, IRBMs and MRBMs.

But does this all mean that the procurement of S-400 LR-SAMs is a foregone conclusion? Absolutely not. Significant questions still remain over the yet-to-be-demonstrated effectiveness of the hypersonic 77N6-N and the 77N6-NI missiles. In addition, a lot will depend on Russia’s ability/inability to ramp up series-production of such missiles over the next five years. Also, exercising the Russian option means that India will have to invest cost-prohibitive financial resources on deploying a network of space-based early-warning satellites, since Russia has diminished capacities in this arena. But most importantly, the US is not sitting by and let Russia and Israel have the cake and eat it as well. Since 2012, the US has been taking keen interest in India’s plans for acquiring exo-atmospheric/endo-atmospheric interceptor missiles, especially after the latter officially decided not to field a new generation of solid-fuelled tactical ballistic missiles—be they conventionally armed or nuclear-capable—for replacing the liquid-fuelled Prithvi-1 NLOS-BSMs of 1990s vintage. What this essentially meant, was that unlike Pakistan, India will not use ballistic missiles of any type that are conventionally armed, since such weapons have zero counter-force/counter

 

[Mrc]

Don't BS every other person with your stupid theories. Determining nuclear detonation yields by watching youtube videos, claiming India doesn't have nuclear weapons because of no youtube video of the detonation...just stop living in the fantasy land.

Just because YOU think that small warheads can be "packed" inside a Shaheen-II RV, doesn't means that its physically deployed too. The "nooks" that small will burn on re-entry, resulting in nothing but an expensive fireworks show. The bosses lie about the capabilities on a regular basis, just like they claimed Shaheen-II's range of 2500km (no fault on their part though, they are forced to do so for propaganda).

Similarly, presence of thrusters on Shaheen-II does not means that you can make the RV dance. They are for course-correction BEFORE re-entry. The TCS is jettisoned before re-entry. The RV is spinning while re-entering the atmosphere so you cannot wishfully change the trajectory and later change it back.

Accept the fact that we are still learning.

There is no need to change the path back to original if pay load is nuclear ..u are not looking for a pin point strike....

Can you explain rv of shaheen 3... i posted a pic above

 

[shaheenmissile]

Don't BS every other person with your stupid theories. Determining nuclear detonation yields by watching youtube videos, claiming India doesn't have nuclear weapons because of no youtube video of the detonation...just stop living in the fantasy land.

Just because YOU think that small warheads can be "packed" inside a Shaheen-II RV, doesn't means that its physically deployed too. The "nooks" that small will burn on re-entry, resulting in nothing but an expensive fireworks show. The bosses lie about the capabilities on a regular basis, just like they claimed Shaheen-II's range of 2500km (no fault on their part though, they are forced to do so for propaganda).

Similarly, presence of thrusters on Shaheen-II does not means that you can make the RV dance. They are for course-correction BEFORE re-entry. The TCS is jettisoned before re-entry. The RV is spinning while re-entering the atmosphere so you cannot wishfully change the trajectory and later change it back.

Accept the fact that we are still learning.

All I can say is"Jealous much".??
Other than that I am not bothering to reply or even read your stupid comment.Bye

 

[Ultima Thule]

I can also call you a third rate moron unable to name the UN proscribes baloch terrorist taking shelter in India, but then i dont really want to stoop down to you level of name calling as i have facts, unlike you.

And what prove that we are sending terrorist to India, if you have the prove than whyYou don't tell your dick friends USA and RUSSIA to increase pressure for Pakistan to stop terrorist but you don't tell your dick friends because you no prove, indian are the best terrorists on whole planet earth you cow piss drinker

 

[The Deterrent]

There is no need to change the path back to original if pay load is nuclear ..u are not looking for a pin point strike....

Can you explain rv of shaheen 3... i posted a pic above

I hope you realize what even a millisecond of error results in when travelling at such high speeds. Consider this: The intended error of impact is in the single digits, when course correction completes in space before re-entry. It is the atmospheric effects which cause an error of 200-300m during re entry.
This all is besides the point, present Shaheen-2 RV is purely ballistic in nature and CANNOT change its trajectory during re-entry.

The nose cone of Shaheen-3 appears to have 2 parts, upper one is a singular RV, lower is possibly a new correction system with a small hydrazine based rocket motor.

All I can say is"Jealous much".??
Other than that I am not bothering to reply or even read your stupid comment.Bye

What happened? Couldn't support your theories with technicalities? Oh right, you're just another keyboard fanboy.

 

[$@rJen]

Well S-400 all capabilities depending on what version India is buying as there are many versions.
Yes the fire control radar can detect anything that flies, but as you may be aware there is a difference between detecting a target and tracking it.
S-400 cannot hit anything which is flying above Mach 6.

Tell me how many versions of S-400 Available first??? !!!! there's no version in the system but different missiles with its own capabilities... Indian will buy them all since they all can be used from S-400.

It can track anything in 600KM and engage them over 400KM Simultaneously, now that's a serious threat.

Again from where did you come to the conclusion it can't engage something that's flying above 6 Mach?? there's no such thing

 

[NKVD]

Tell me how many versions of S-400 Available first??? !!!! there's no version in the system but different missiles with its own capabilities... Indian will buy them all since they all can be used from S-400.

It can track anything in 600KM and engage them over 400KM Simultaneously, now that's a serious threat.

Again from where did you come to the conclusion it can't engage something that's flying above 6 Mach?? there's no such thing

you are Wasting your time this Guy can predict nuclear yield by just watching YouTube videos .

 

[Sine Nomine]

1.Mobile exactly means, you can fire, pick up shop and change position.

That's not a cruise or ballistic missile,which can apply shoot-scoot Tactics.

2. It depends on which element is destroyed..Command truck or radar truck..yes. launcher, relay vehicle etc ..No.

Every Part of battery is important,destruction of any part has impact on Performance of battery.

3. Even if RAAD is fired at it maximum theoretical range of 350 Kms, it would still be inside S-400 range. Besides GPS or Tercom guided cruise missiles are not very effective against SAM batteries unless you know there exact co-ordinated..which is impossible to know..since it is not a fixed structure. Even if the missile battery moves 10 meters from its position the ALCM would be rendered useless.

What makes you think that Pakistan hasn't increased range of babur and Ra'ad and improved them.There are many chines platforms which surely can work.

4. One need a standoff ARM with 400 Km range to safely target such a SAM.

Such SAM can be targeted by special forces if good Intel is provided.

5. The worst part of Pakistan here is, all Pakistani airbases will be in S-400 range, As soon as in aircraft takes off , it can be targeted.

kidoo,such high value strategic systems are only deployed to protect vital cities,command nods and plants,they are not deployed on borders.
If we assume your scenario it remains theoretical.

 

[$@rJen]

you are Wasting your time this Guy can predict nuclear yield by just watching YouTube videos .

forget him there's another pakistani in US who said he hosts IAF's air chief and his son whenever he vists US..

 

[Mrc]

I hope you realize what even a millisecond of error results in when travelling at such high speeds. Consider this: The intended error of impact is in the single digits, when course correction completes in space before re-entry. It is the atmospheric effects which cause an error of 200-300m during re entry.
This all is besides the point, present Shaheen-2 RV is purely ballistic in nature and CANNOT change its trajectory during re-entry.

The nose cone of Shaheen-3 appears to have 2 parts, upper one is a singular RV, lower is possibly a new correction system with a small hydrazine based rocket motor.

What happened? Couldn't support your theories with technicalities? Oh right, you're just another keyboard fanboy.

The nose cone of shaheen 3 looks like that upper portion is a lid that separates allowing multiple war heads inside to deploy....
Thats how mirv missiles work...all around the world

Applying the principle of " if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it probably is a duck" u can come to a logical conclusion ....

About side firing motors , consider this.... an rv travelling at mach 20- 25 a slight push by side firing motor AFTER REENTRY is complete will put off all the calculations of an abm...
If there is only a few meter distance from your calculated point of intercept and where rv actually is.... u have a failed intercept.....

 

[zebra7]

You seem to miss my point, the aster is not made to counter the s400 but to compete against it and work against indian incursions via jet, srbm's cruise missile. sam's are defensive systems not offensive.

you previous post was quiet strange, i admit, my post my seem strange but i assume your keyboard is fine but my keys are sticky.( just brought a new keyboard now)

I am not denying Aster 30 is a potent SAM but you are missing some fundamental problem and confusion :

1. The topic here is what should be the response after S-400 Sale, so what is astor-30 doing with s-400 sale --- to have parity or tit for tat type thing with india, that is why Astor 30 should be seperated from this.

2. Astor 30 have many block -- Astor block 0 , block 1, and block 2. from anti anti-ship cruise missle to land fired, and the ABM, and surely with different range and size. You like astor -30 block 2 that ok but it is a ABM system, but again its out of topic of this thread, and could you confirm that block 2 is ready to be deployed and it is for sale to pakistan and what is the cost of the system.

3 I gave solutions to counter S-400 threats which Pakistan should do to lower down the S-400 affect, but I didn't include the options such as J-31 or Long range laser attack or something like that because they are ficious and the options which are some possible and economically viable, and your response in post 66 in this thread raised some doubts and where ever I feels its wrong I posted my own response here

Possible Russian S-400 sale to India and Pakistan's Response. | Page 6

Now I fail to understand why do you find it strange, apart from keyboard skicky key I mentioned I don't understand where I fail to understand some, but took it for aster -30 block 2.

@Blue Marlin @waz bhai do you find my response offensive -- but I am only on topic -- not discussing astor -- but exploring all posibility of the implications and affect and counter response in the limit of economicaly practicality.

 

[shaheenmissile]

Tell me how many versions of S-400 Available first??? !!!! there's no version in the system but different missiles with its own capabilities... Indian will buy them all since they all can be used from S-400.

It can track anything in 600KM and engage them over 400KM Simultaneously, now that's a serious threat.

Again from where did you come to the conclusion it can't engage something that's flying above 6 Mach?? there's no such thing

There was an ABM treaty in force which is now defunct but itit limited any ABM development to track or engage targets travelling at less than 4.8 meters per second or Mach 14. That is the limit upon which both USA and Russia wrote their algorithm to be used in their ABM. ALTHOUGH treaty Is expired but mABM manufacturers still mention Mach 14 as their upper most limit for detection of any target. S-400 has also the same stated upper limit of target detection.
You can check it yourself from wherever you want.
Other than that you may be aware that there are only two systems in the world which have been specifically developed for ballistic missile defense and can defend against all types of ballistic missiles. The Russian A-35 and American GMD.
ALL other so called ABM are SAME with added capabilities of "trying " to hit an incoming ballistic missile.
The nature of the systems limits them to reliably defending against tactical ballistic missiles only. Which are generally missiles which don't rise above 50-60 kilometers and hence don't have speeds above 6-7 Machs. It is stated in S-400 specifications by manufacturer. They only mentioned tactical ballistic missiles and even that limits system's tracking range to just 60 kilometre as even those type of missiles are too fast.
S-400 or Patriot or any other SAM + ABM cannot defend against strategic ballistic missiles or missiles who rise to altitudes of above 100 kilometers and freefall to silly Mach numbers. These missiles are too fast to be tracked or hit by S-400, Patriot or any SAM+ABM.
SO that's why I said Shaheen series us safe. Nadr,Abdali and may Ghaznavi are vulnerable if India gets S-400.

 

[zebra7]

I am skeptic about this news lets wait

In 2013 a combined team from IAI and Russia’s JSC Almaz-Antey MSDB made an unsolicited presentation to the IAF on an improved version of the S-400 ‘Triumph’ LR-SAM (a generation ahead of what has been sold to China) that would make use of IAI’s latest EL/M-2090U UHF-band active phased-array LRTR, the IAF began making hectic plans for procuring such a system for TMD within the foreseeable future.

Presently, the S-400 makes use of four different types of supersonic endo-atmospheric interceptor missiles (top speed of 4.8km/second): the 40N6E, the 9M96E2, the 48N6E3 and the 48N6E2, all of which are armed with HE-fragmentation warheads. What Russia has proposed for the IAF are two HYPERSONIC missiles, the exo-atmospheric 77N6-N and the endo-atmospheric 77N6-NI, having top speeds of 7km/second and also being the first SAMs of Russian origin to possess INERT warheads, i.e. warheads that do not contain any explosives and instead, are ‘hittile’, meaning they will destroy inbound TBMs, IRBMs or MRBMs by sheer force of impact.

The most revolutionary element of the 77N6-N and the 77N6-NI hypersonic LR-SAMs will be their on-board nose-mounted, Ka-band millimeter-wave active phased-array radar seekers and their real-time discrimination algorithms required for fire-control and guidance of hit-to-kill interceptors. To this end, the radar seekers have been designed with a rigid mount and narrow beam to provide precise angle metric accuracy. The combination of metric accuracy, wide bandwidth, and high Doppler-resolution capabilities makes them excellent sensors for real-time discrimination, for they can provide extremely accurate identification-processing estimates of motion differences caused by mass imbalances on real and threat-like targets.

The 300-tonne EL/M-2090U ULTRA C-22 LRTR features an array of 22 UHF-band transmit-receive modules (TRM) in a single clustered unit that has been designed so that modules can be easily swapped. Using UHF, rather than the higher frequency bands, has particular application at long ranges since it suffers from less signal loss in the atmosphere. A discriminating innovation of the ELM-2090U is the digitisation of the signals at the TRM-level, which allows more flexibility in beam-forming and shaping. For TMD along a sectoral footprint, IAI has developed the EL/M-2090U’s ULTRA C-6 version, which has six TRM clusters. Each cluster can electronically steer its beam through +/-60 degrees in azimuth and across a 40-degree sector in elevation. In all cases, the array can be mechanically tilted through 30 degrees in elevation to provide a total elevation coverage of 70 degrees. The larger C-22 version comes mounted on a rail assembly that can be mechanically slewed through +/100 degrees to give 320-degree coverage.

As per the IAF’s projections, there exists a requirement for 12 Batteries of the S-400 (each Battery using four TELs each housing four cannister-encased LR-SAMs), plus 12 C-6 LRTRs and two C-22 LRTRs. In other words, as per the IAF’s appreciation, a total of 11 strategic sectors are required to be protected against inbound TBMs, IRBMs and MRBMs.

But does this all mean that the procurement of S-400 LR-SAMs is a foregone conclusion? Absolutely not. Significant questions still remain over the yet-to-be-demonstrated effectiveness of the hypersonic 77N6-N and the 77N6-NI missiles. In addition, a lot will depend on Russia’s ability/inability to ramp up series-production of such missiles over the next five years. Also, exercising the Russian option means that India will have to invest cost-prohibitive financial resources on deploying a network of space-based early-warning satellites, since Russia has diminished capacities in this arena. But most importantly, the US is not sitting by and let Russia and Israel have the cake and eat it as well. Since 2012, the US has been taking keen interest in India’s plans for acquiring exo-atmospheric/endo-atmospheric interceptor missiles, especially after the latter officially decided not to field a new generation of solid-fuelled tactical ballistic missiles—be they conventionally armed or nuclear-capable—for replacing the liquid-fuelled Prithvi-1 NLOS-BSMs of 1990s vintage. What this essentially meant, was that unlike Pakistan, India will not use ballistic missiles of any type that are conventionally armed, since such weapons have zero counter-force/counter

There is a small twist-- like some expert like Prasun K sen thinks that S-400 is for the stop gap for the ABM till India fielded its own AAD/PDV or purchase THAAD or for a potent SAM to protect some of important VIP installations and airbases in the border areas.

@Mrc @shaheenmissile
And some of members here started a fight for the MIRV, Nuclear tip shaheen, or gauri. Bhaiyo who told you that S-400 is for ABM shield. Till every thing is clear consider S-400 as a Long range SAM only and discuss only that part and please leave High End Strategic Nuclear attack appart from this thread.

 

[shaheenmissile]

There is a small twist-- like some expert like Prasun K sen thinks that S-400 is for the stop gap for the ABM till India fielded its own AAD/PDV or purchase THAAD or for a potent SAM to protect some of important VIP installations and airbases in the border areas.

@Mrc @shaheenmissile
And some of members here started a fight for the MIRV, Nuclear tip shaheen, or gauri. Bhaiyo who told you that S-400 is for ABM shield. Till every thing is clear consider S-400 as a Long range SAM only and discuss only that part and please leave High End Strategic Nuclear attack appart from this thread.

Yes You are right and I wrote a detailed explanation above. Any SAM derived ABM cannot hit strategic ballistic missiles but have high probability if notnot guarantee of hitting tactical ballistic missiles.
TThat's why I was on about use of small tactical nukes as cluster munitions in Abdali or Ghaznavi,theoretically speaking.