Poll: Turkey's possible future union

[atatwolf]

Hey where is the Option of - Neutrality & Indifference as a Foreign Policy ?

No Ummah for Pakistan - We've been bitten by our Muslim Brothers more times than I can count !

Turan - We may love Turks but it still doesn't make us Turks !

Otherwise we'd be as bad as Turkish Men when it comes to romancing with women !

SCO - Yeah...maybe...no I don't like Unions !

EU - Ahhh hell no !

If you meant Turkiye - Then its your call...who am I tell you which Union you ought to join ?

You can join Turan as non-Turkic member

 

[Hakan]

@Asena_Y @asena_great

Voting twice I see.

I wouldn't want you guys to run my union.

 

[Armstrong]

You can join Turan as non-Turkic member

What happens when all the pretty Turkic women start running towards Pakistan ?

I mean if nothing else I have to care for my Turkish Brothers hence why I don't wanna join the Turkic Union !

 

[-SINAN-]

Hey where is the Option of - Neutrality & Indifference as a Foreign Policy ?

We don't live in the middle Europe, not possible in ME.

No Ummah for Pakistan - We've been bitten by our Muslim Brothers more times than I can count !
Turan - We may love Turks but it still doesn't make us Turks !
Otherwise we'd be as bad as Turkish Men when it comes to romancing with women !
SCO - Yeah...maybe...no I don't like Unions !
EU - Ahhh hell no !
If you meant Turkiye - Then its your call...who am I tell you which Union you ought to join ?

Many Pakistani users cheer for the Ummah though......

 

[atatwolf]

What happens when all the pretty Turkic women start running towards Pakistan ?

Don't mistake Turkic women with European women

I mean if nothing else I have to care for my Turkish Brothers hence why I don't wanna join the Turkic Union !

You are too kind

 

[Armstrong]

We don't live in the middle Europe, not possible in ME.

I didn't mean - Neutrality & Indifference as in 'we're not gonna take sides'; I meant I'm gonna be on your side or not depending not on some romanticized notion of ethnicity, religion or ideology but what the impact of that decision is going to be on my country & my people !

Everyone is already doing that - Did it stop Turks, Arabs & every other Muslim Majority country from having relations with India ?

No....so then we - Pakistan - decided that we were wrong to formulate a policy thinking that Muslim Countries would stand with us if we stand with them - Sending Pakistani pilots to fight in the Arab-Israeli Wars or refusing to recognize Israel or refusing to recognize Armenia didn't really do anything for us except create Enemies out of people we really didn't have an Issue with !

So now we don't....now we decided purely on the basis of whether its in our interests or not ? And we won't stick out our neck for anyone !

Many Pakistani users cheer for the Ummah though......

They do because the Ummah for any Muslim who calls himself a Muslim was the idea that Muslims can transcend beyond these parochial differences of languages & ethnicity & stick for each other...look out for each other...not sell each other out....not descend into this Tribalistic mentality of only or primarily considering those who share blood or language with you to be your own kin - In that sense it remains central to Islam !

Practically it didn't happen because after the death of the First 4 Caliphs when the Muslim World became a ruderless ship & our subsequent Caliphs were little more than decadent, morally & ethically corrupt Monarchs instead of the Democrats that the First 4 Caliphs were - Slowly all of these 'Golden Principles' were abandoned including this one !

Pakistanis are emotional about their Religious Identity - Thats one of the reasons why we stuck out or neck for Muslims in the beginning before realizing that very little of it gets reciprocated !

However being the romanticized notion that the Ummah is - It still resides in our hearts even if we will never base Foreign Policy on that basis again....!

Its a little like the Turkic Union for you guys - You know that it will never come to pass.....you know that some Turkic Countries haven't exactly been Brotherly in the past....you know that not all Turkic Countries would reciprocate your feeling but you still hold onto it as an Ideal to aspire to !

Then there is the idea of Pakistan being based on the notion of Muslim Nationalism - So something ring more resoundingly with us than they do with others - the Ummah is one such thing !

 

[atatwolf]

Its a little like the Turkic Union for you guys - You know that it will never come to pass.....you know that some Turkic Countries haven't exactly been Brotherly in the past....you know that not all Turkic Countries would reciprocate your feeling but you still hold onto it as an Ideal to aspire to !

There are steps taken towards Turkic union:
Turkic Council - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This can't be said about Ummah, why? Because Ummah is not possible because Muslims don't cooperate with each other.

On the other hand, last couple of years, Turkic cooperation has increased a lot. Even if Turkic union won't be possible, which I disagree with, close ties, increasing economic ties, having one political view in the region and having common army is possible and is happening.

Nobody will be able to deny this or stop Turkic leaders meeting with each other.

They are working on common alphabet, they are working on economic integration, energy projects, common military, things are getting on track slow but steady.

 

[-SINAN-]

I didn't mean - Neutrality & Indifference as in 'we're not gonna take sides'; I meant I'm gonna be on your side or not depending not on some romanticized notion of ethnicity, religion or ideology but what the impact of that decision is going to be on my country & my people !
Everyone is already doing that - Did it stop Turks, Arabs & every other Muslim Majority country from having relations with India ?

We are already doing that..

Remember we had very good relations with Israel until a few years.

No....so then we - Pakistan - decided that we were wrong to formulate a policy thinking that Muslim Countries would stand with us if we stand with them - Sending Pakistani pilots to fight in the Arab-Israeli Wars or refusing to recognize Israel or refusing to recognize Armenia didn't really do anything for us except create Enemies out of people we really didn't have an Issue with !
So now we don't....now we decided purely on the basis of whether its in our interests or not ? And we won't stick out our neck for anyone !

You are absolutely true... should look for your countries interests only, nobody can judge you for that.

You really should stop caring for the Muslim world. I don't why you are doing this.
- Maybe because you are the new kid in the block, you don't have a rooted state culture.
- Or maybe you are facing a constant enemy much stronger than you, you look for allies all the time. but you are looking for the wrong direction.... rather than wrong direction, i mean you should look at all directions.

My humble opinion.

 

[Armstrong]

There are steps taken towards Turkic union:
Turkic Council - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This can't be said about Ummah, why? Because Ummah is not possible because Muslims don't cooperate with each other.

On the other hand, last couple of years, Turkic cooperation has increased a lot. Even if Turkic union won't be possible, which I disagree with, close ties, increasing economic ties, having one political view in the region and having common army is possible and is happening.

Nobody will be able to deny this or stop Turkic leaders meeting with each other.

Well good-luck !

I just hope that it becomes something more than the OIC - Oh-I-See that Muslim Countries have !

 

[atatwolf]

Well good-luck !

I just hope that it becomes something more than the OIC - Oh-I-See that Muslim Countries have !

I hope so too, if we look at Muslim history, the only time we were united was under a Turkic power. I think it will be good for the whole region.

 

[Armstrong]

You really should stop caring for the Muslim world. I don't why you are doing this.
- Maybe because you are the new kid in the block, you don't have a rooted state culture.
- Or maybe you are facing a constant enemy much stronger than you, you look for allies all the time. but you are looking for the wrong direction.... rather than wrong direction, i mean you should look at all directions.

My humble opinion.

Our Culture is very diverse & thousands of years old - So its not about that !

Its about the idea of Pakistan; we came together under the idea that as Muslims we'd learn to rise above our ethnic & linguistic differences....to cease this senseless talk of who's Civilization is more Grand, who's Monarch's ruled whom, who's People produced more Glorious Armies, Poets etc. & in the process create an egalitarian society based not on ethnicity, culture or language but the Islamic principles of Justice & Fairness to all irrespective of their Religious, Ethnic or Linguistic identities - the Pluralistic State of Medina that Our Prophet (PBUH) made in other words where all were Equal & all were Respected & all were given the space to live their Lives, practice their Cultures etc. as they pleased !

Because of the focus on 'Islam' & 'Muslims' because in an Undivided India we felt that we'd be made into Second Class Citizens, as some of our elders faced & felt that we would - hence why almost a unanimous support for Pakistan by the Muslims of an Undivided India especially from the Muslim Minority Provinces - the focus on Islam was quite strong because we felt our lives & our way of life as Muslims wasn't safe because we were Muslims.....because the Hindu Radicals wanted to make us into the Hindu Mohemmadans of India as they used to say !

In the end we went for a separate country after exhausting all possibilities from Constitutional Guarantees to Autonomy !

Unfortunately Our Father died just a year after the country was born & the next generation of Pakistani Leaders were dumber than dodo birds hence our present predicament !

 

[-SINAN-]

They do because the Ummah for any Muslim who calls himself a Muslim was the idea that Muslims can transcend beyond these parochial differences of languages & ethnicity & stick for each other...look out for each other...not sell each other out....not descend into this Tribalistic mentality of only or primarily considering those who share blood or language with you to be your own kin - In that sense it remains central to Islam !
Practically it didn't happen because after the death of the First 4 Caliphs when the Muslim World became a ruderless ship & our subsequent Caliphs were little more than decadent, morally & ethically corrupt Monarchs instead of the Democrats that the First 4 Caliphs were - Slowly all of these 'Golden Principles' were abandoned including this one !
Pakistanis are emotional about their Religious Identity - Thats one of the reasons why we stuck out or neck for Muslims in the beginning before realizing that very little of it gets reciprocated !
However being the romanticized notion that the Ummah is - It still resides in our hearts even if we will never base Foreign Policy on that basis again....!
Its a little like the Turkic Union for you guys - You know that it will never come to pass.....you know that some Turkic Countries haven't exactly been Brotherly in the past....you know that not all Turkic Countries would reciprocate your feeling but you still hold onto it as an Ideal to aspire to !

mate, on the Turkic union issue i think different from you.

It's not just because of we share the same blood.
As Turkey we are militarly, politically, economically strongest of the Turkic nations. We can give much to Turkic countries and assist them in various field. We can establish natural gas line to Europe to sell their natural gas. Give them ToT, open factories for Joint projects... potential is limitless.

And add top of it sharing same blood, same religion, similar culture, similar language.

Turkic Union can not be created easily but maybe bringing Turkic countries one by one. First by Azerbaijan, Later Turkmenistan and Kazakhistan later others.

It won't be easy but i don't think that we have a better option.

 

[Armstrong]

mate, on the Turkic union issue i think different from you.

It's not just because of we share the same blood.
As Turkey we are militarly, politically, economically strongest of the Turkic nations. We can give much to Turkic countries and assist them in various field. We can establish natural gas line to Europe to sell their natural gas. Give them ToT, open factories for Joint projects... potential is limitless.

And add top of it sharing same blood, same religion, similar culture, similar language.

Turkic Union can not be created easily but maybe bringing Turkic countries one by one. First by Azerbaijan, Later Turkmenistan and Kazakhistan later others.

It won't be easy but i don't think that we have a better option.

Its your call - I don't believe in Ethnicity because Anthropologically it seems Irrational to me so I don't agree with any Ideological State or Union - Religious or Ethnic !

Buts its your country....its your call !

 

[-SINAN-]

Our Culture is very diverse & thousands of years old - So its not about that !
Its about the idea of Pakistan; we came together under the idea that as Muslims we'd learn to rise above our ethnic & linguistic differences....to cease this senseless talk of who's Civilization is more Grand, who's Monarch's ruled whom, who's People produced more Glorious Armies, Poets etc. & in the process create an egalitarian society based not on ethnicity, culture or language but the Islamic principles of Justice & Fairness to all irrespective of their Religious, Ethnic or Linguistic identities - the Pluralistic State of Medina that Our Prophet (PBUH) made in other words !
Because of the focus on 'Islam' & 'Muslims' because in an Undivided India we felt that we'd be made into Second Class Citizens, as some of our elders faced & felt that we would - hence why almost a unanimous support for Pakistan by the Muslims of an Undivided India especially from the Muslim Minority Provinces - the focus on Islam was quite strong because we felt our lives & our way of life as Muslims wasn't safe because we were Muslims.....because the Hindu Radicals wanted to make us into the Hindu Mohemmadans of India as they used to say !
In the end we went for a separate country after exhausting all possibilities from Constitutional Guarantees to Autonomy !
Unfortunately Our Father died just a year after the country was born & the next generation of Pakistani Leaders were dumber than dodo birds hence our present predicament !

I get it your glue is Islam, whereas our's is nationalism. So it's natural for you to look upon muslim world. The same way we look on Turkic world.

 

[Armstrong]

I get it your glue is Islam, whereas our's is nationalism. So it's natural for you to look upon muslim world. The same way we look on Turkic world.

Its a little more than Islam but the focus is overwhelmingly so on Islam !

Otherwise we're the scions of the Indus Valley & Gandhara Civilizations & we've lived, fought & died for & against each other for thousands of years to the point there are actual major ethnic groups that are trans-ethnic or trans-linguistic in the sense that they exist at the center of two major ethnic group's historical lands where they'd be ethnically one ethnic group but linguistically or culturally another ethnic group. For example the Pukhtoons of Minawali & Attock are ethnically Pukhtoon but Culturally & Linguistically they're Punjabis/Saraikis !