PN Capabilities - Indian View

[Contrarian]

I want to ask a question, how many planes have been shot down in combat BVR compared to within visual range? The answer i suspect to the dismay of blind proponents of BVR supremacy would be quite embarrassing.

You would do well to note here, that India has excellent dogfighters such as Su-30MKI which have TVC, along with the naturally agile MiG 29, which lacked heavily in avionics, but even that is being rectified by the SMT upgrade. So there is nothing in the Pak inventory that can be called excellent in WVR either, F-16 is good, but MiG 29 exceeds F-16 in manouverability. If you doubt my statement, please chk google to find out the comparison in manouverability. The MiG 29SMT will be a VERY potent fighter. WVR has and always will remains MiG 29's forte.

BVR combat is great on paper but it ignores the fact that it relies heavily on Radar which can be defeated by opponents counter-measures.

Yes, they can, thus you see the AESA acquisition planned in the MRCA order by IAF. Even if you dont look at WVR, India has far superior planes.

Seconldy contrary to most Indian posters here, the organic airdefence that can be provided by India's small aircraft carriers are not very great due to the fact they dont hold many planes in the first place and that the planes that are in the air would be primary dedicated to protecting the Aircraft carrier itself rather than other sea assets because of the fact that India does not possess capable airdefense ships such as Aeigis that other nations do have.

Yes, that was true as long as you considered Vikrant. With Vikramaditya that is all set to change. Vikramaditya is roughly TWICE the size of the existing carrier. The Carrier can hold as many as 30 MiG 29K's(tell me if there are more),along with the assorted ASW, AEW helicoptors. It would be armed with the best sensors and equipment that can be obtained, and that includes Barak NG, Barak and Kashtan as a three tier defence against any aerial threats. Vikramaditya's upgrade is a COMPLETE change of the carrier.
Here is a pic of the old Gorshy:
http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n244/indian_sukhoi/Indian%20Navy/GORSHKOVCVHG02a70v.jpg

And here is the picture of the new Vikramaditya:
http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n244/indian_sukhoi/Indian Navy/Vikram_top.jpg


Oh btw India does indeed have orders for dedicated AAW ships. P-17 versions are on order i think. So dont worry.

Oh and i also forgot to add, there is ANOTHER carrier comming in 2012. And that one is MADE IN INDIA

India's naval ability to inflict devastation on Pakistan is tempered by three factors

1. Pakistan has increased storage of key items for the military such as ammunition and oil while the land transport route to Iran has been strengthened reducing pressure on sea routes compared to the past.

Yes, that is good, what makes you think that the storage facilities wont be bombed as well?

2. Systematic upgrading of anti-ship ground launched missiles from Pakistan's shores.

Im not worried on that account, the Barak NG, Barak and Kashtan are more than sufficient to take care of any threats to the Indian Naval Ships. That poses minimal threat.

3. Major upgrade of air capability.

Yes, but the major upgrade of air capability is for the PAF and not PN, and in relation IAF is also going for major upgrades, so the status quo will remain. PAF is going for medium tech fighters to fill gaps. India is going for high tech fighters to fill gaps. So technological gap will only increase.

Now you also forgot to add one more thing: The opening of another front by the IN right in Pakistani soil. The LPD's bought and those that are being made are for these purposes only. To carry MARCOS and Army straight in Pakistan and open up another front there.

 

[Adux]

Pakistan Doesnt posses any amazing Anti-Ship missiles which can be delieverd outside the Indian Engagement radius which would require a Ageis type system. Indian Stregth lies in their ASW, that is where your strength lies too Submarines. The Odds are heavy, Till now PN havent been able to flex cuz various reasons including Budget

 

[Contrarian]

Yeah and 6 Scorpene's are also already UNDER CONSTRUCTION. Deliveries start by 2012.

 

[Adux]

This can be a interesting topic of discussion, we could figure out How PN could provide good defense, as well how IN could attack .

 

[sigatoka]

1. You would do well to note here, that India has excellent dogfighters such as Su-30MKI which have TVC, along with the naturally agile MiG 29, there is nothing in the Pak inventory that can be called excellent in WVR either, F-16 is good, but MiG 29 exceeds F-16 in manouverability. Even if you dont look at WVR, India has far superior planes.


2. The Carrier can hold as many as 30 MiG 29K's(tell me if there are more),along with the assorted ASW, AEW helicoptors. Oh and i also forgot to add, there is ANOTHER carrier comming in 2012. And that one is MADE IN INDIA


3. Yes, that is good, what makes you think that the storage facilities wont be bombed as well?


4. Im not worried on that account, the Barak NG, Barak and Kashtan are more than sufficient to take care of any threats to the Indian Naval Ships. That poses minimal threat.


5. Yes, but the major upgrade of air capability is for the PAF and not PN, and in relation IAF is also going for major upgrades, so the status quo will remain. PAF is going for medium tech fighters to fill gaps. India is going for high tech fighters to fill gaps. So technological gap will only increase.

6. Now you also forgot to add one more thing: The opening of another front by the IN right in Pakistani soil. The LPD's bought and those that are being made are for these purposes only. To carry MARCOS and Army straight in Pakistan and open up another front there.

1. India does have excellent dogfighers, I never disputed that. The point that you raised was that Pakistan's ground based planes would never be able to come within range to engage India's ships and planes, this is untrue. Now, you've wriggled to another argument saying oh wait they can engage BUT they have inferior planes even in visual range combat. This is debatable, Mig-29 manouverability advantage over the F-16 is marginal at best. "India has far superior planes?" what are you smoking?

2. 30 Mig's yes would be enough to (barely)provide round the clock airdefense for the carrier and attached group but still would struggle to provide offensive punch against opponent's ships and land targets. A lot can change in 2012, what happens so far from now is irrelevant.

3. Storage facilities are dispersed and protected by airdefence, they would be too insignificant targets for risky missions by India's few carrier based Mig's.

4. I have never been totally convinced as to the efficacy of these short range systems against opponent's cruise missiles. It seems these things have only a marginally better capability than providing just a morale booster by just being present.

5. Ahem LCA?

6. Whats an LPD?

 

[Contrarian]

1. India does have excellent dogfighers, I never disputed that. The point that you raised was that Pakistan's ground based planes would never be able to come within range to engage India's ships and planes, this is untrue. Now, you've wriggled to another argument saying oh wait they can engage BUT they have inferior planes even in visual range combat. This is debatable, Mig-29 manouverability advantage over the F-16 is marginal at best.

You just need to search for it in google and you will find how much better the original MiG 29 is at manouverability. That is irrelevant however. It is indeed true that Pakistan ground based planes would not be able to come within range to engage India's ships. Consider this, they would be detected by AWACS, face loads of SAM's en route to carrier and on top of that there will be the superb MiG 29K's. I hope you know that MiG 29K is VERY different from the regular MiG 29's.

"India has far superior planes?" what are you smoking?

You tell me. Does India NOT have superior planes? At the moment PAF has only F-16A/B vs MiG 29, Mirage 200 and then Su-30MKI.

2. 30 Mig's yes would be enough to (barely)provide round the clock airdefense for the carrier and attached group but still would struggle to provide offensive punch against opponent's ships and land targets.

That is where you are mistaken, the planes donot need to provide air defence constantly, there are AWACS to detect any plane or ship within the no entry zone of the Carrier, if anything is detected, then the fighters are scrambled along with the respective SAM's and other guns, etc.

30 MiG 29K's will be used offensively with the entire range of Russian and Israeli PGM's along with the entire naval armoury of missiles, rockets, etc. It wont struggle, it would change the whole equation at sea.

A lot can change in 2012, what happens so far from now is irrelevant.

Its just 5 years from now. Its not so far.Then there will be 2 state of the art Carriers.

3. Storage facilities are dispersed and protected by airdefence, they would be too insignificant targets for risky missions by India's few carrier based Mig's.

I dont think you are quite getting what these MiGs are capable of. Please chk some reports of them to understand them. Yes, the storage facilities if in the heart of Pakistan would be deemed insignificant, but any storage faciliteis in and near the coast would be taken care of. These MiG 29K's would completely divert the PAF attention towards them. Performing bombing runs all along the coast of Pakistan, the safety of the Carrier Battle Group would be their refuge.

4. I have never been totally convinced as to the efficacy of these short range systems against opponent's cruise missiles. It seems these things have only a marginally better capability than providing just a morale booster by just being present.

Then you SERIOUSLY need to read up more if you think that.

Barak till date has succesfully intercepted ALL of the Indian missile arsenal except BrahMos. Its among the VERY best systems available. That is the reason India and Israel went in a JV to make Barak NG(Next Generation) which would have range of around 70kms. This system renders all the Ash Missiles almost useless. It is very hard to beat, and unless there is flooding of these missiles against the ship, then it would not get through. And then again, that is the reason Barak NG is being made, to intercept at long ranges, give more time, etc, etc.

5. Ahem LCA?

I deliberately did not say that, becuse there has not been mass induction, and there are no reports saying there would be, however i personally confirmed at AI that there will be around 150 deliveries of LCA. India is however going ahead for MiG 35/F/A-18E/F. They outclass even the Su-30MKI, let alone the F-16 blk 52/J-10/JF-17 that Pakistan plans to procure.

But by all means, if you want to count the LCA in too, that would jack up the numbers EVEN more.

6. Whats an LPD?

Landing Platform Dock. It is to launch beach invasions essentially, or land where there is no dock, etc, etc. It can carry huge number of soldiers and heavy vehicles even tanks, etc. IN has trained MARCOS(Marine Commandos) on th lines of the USMC, and they will be used to open up another front right inside Pakistan. The LPD's are huge ships. The LPD that India procured from the US, ie the Trenton is currently the SECOND LARGEST ship in its inventory after the Carrier Vikrant.

 

[sigatoka]

1. Yes, the storage facilities if in the heart of Pakistan would be deemed insignificant, but any storage faciliteis in and near the coast would be taken care of. These MiG 29K's would completely divert the PAF attention towards them. Performing bombing runs all along the coast of Pakistan, the safety of the Carrier Battle Group would be their refuge.

2. Barak till date has succesfully intercepted ALL of the Indian missile arsenal except BrahMos. Its among the VERY best systems available. This system renders all the Ash Missiles almost useless. It is very hard to beat, and unless there is flooding of these missiles against the ship, then it would not get through.

3. Landing Platform Dock. It is to launch beach invasions essentially, or land where there is no dock, etc, etc. It can carry huge number of soldiers and heavy vehicles even tanks, etc. IN has trained MARCOS(Marine Commandos) on th lines of the USMC, and they will be used to open up another front right inside Pakistan.

1. Because of the short take off length of the carriers the planes payload would be restricted such that intensive bombing campaigns would be impaired.

2. In testing, not actual combat. These tests are set up such that there is always a greater chance of success for the system to be inducted.

3. This is laughable if India is serious on mounting a land invasion by sea of Pakistan. Have you ever heard of gallipoli? Normandy was a success because the Soviets had tied down a large chunk of the German army on the Eastern front and U.S. had also opened another front in southern Italy.

 

[Adux]

1. Aircarft bombardment is not the only way of bombing.

2. Barak NG is in testing, Barak, shitl, Kashtan etc are already deployed for defence.

3. If it all there is a invasion by sea which wont happen since Cold Start doesnt advocate it, it will be only a small compliment to land invasion,

 

[Adux]

LPD

 

[Contrarian]

1. Because of the short take off length of the carriers the planes payload would be restricted such that intensive bombing campaigns would be impaired.

Yes, but the planes would just as easily come back to the carrier close by, refuel ,reload and go back.

2. In testing, not actual combat. These tests are set up such that there is always a greater chance of success for the system to be inducted.

You have to learn, you have no idea how effective these systems are, as Adux has posted above, there's loads of defensive systems on Indian Ships. Only multiple salvos would be able to break it.

3. This is laughable if India is serious on mounting a land invasion by sea of Pakistan. Have you ever heard of gallipoli? Normandy was a success because the Soviets had tied down a large chunk of the German army on the Eastern front and U.S. had also opened another front in southern Italy.

A large chunk of the PA would be tied down by IA on the western and south western front, PAF would already be overwhelmed by the IAF. Where would there be any support for the the coast? In anycase, the aim is to put speicliased soldiers there or MARCOS. But the option is there nonetheless.

 

[Bull]

Source? Are you telling me that it will take 7 years for the USN to meet its requirements or 7 years for the IN to recieve P-8 when the order has to be placed?

http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/mma/

 

[Bull]

Fully agreed, but i will wait for the Boeings word. Any news on it?..

Boeing has offered it to India and India have invited them for trials.

http://www.irna.com/en/news/view/line-20/0606190871093606.htm

Iraqi Army will tear all the defences of US Army and will take the fight inside the US territory with the support of the air force. Your Air Force and Army will be engaged against Iraq so dedicatedly that they wont have a time to think about the navy. Only the dedicated squadrons would be able to conduct their operations..

With the words changed, you sound like Saddam Hussien Pre Gulf War-1

 

[Adux]

Indian Navy Projects Need For US$ 25 Billion Over Next Five Years

Dated 14/12/2006
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Indian Navy chief Admiral Sureesh Mehta said today that they Indian Navy has put forward a requirement of Rs.110,000 crore (US$ 25 Billion approx.) for the next Five-Year Plan to equip itself to take on the challenges of the future.

"We are preparing the navy for any role in the future scenario. With an economic growth rate of over eight per cent, India has arrived and the world is looking at us with a difference," Admiral Mehta, on a three-day visit to the Western Fleet's headquarters here, told reporters.

Besides its military role, the navy has a diplomatic and policing role, he said, citing the ongoing light intensity maritime operations.

"The navy currently has 136 ships and building of 33 more ships is underway in our shipyards," he said. Six Scorpene submarines are being built at Mazagon dockyard here.

Aircraft carrier INS Vikramaditya, formerly the Russian Navy's Admiral Gorshkov, will arrive in Mumbai in two years, and the large amphibious ship Trenton, acquired from the US, would be handed over to the navy next month, he said.

"This will bring about a marked increase in the navy's capabilities," Mehta said.

The navy is also focussing on indigenous technology. "Indigenous technology is available but big corporate and industrial houses are hesitant to step into this area," he said.

Mehta emphasised the need to have the capability to launch a nuclear second strike as "we are a no-first use nation".

"We do not have the (second strike) capability...But we are moving in that direction," he said.

Asked about the shortcomings of the navy, Mehta said, "We have not kept pace with maritime reconnaisance. We need assets. We have not kept pace with asset induction. We have some old planes and other equipment and we are managing with that.

"We are building our maritime domain awareness. We are thinking of satellite coverage of a large area," he added.

The navy has learnt to operate unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) with great ingenuity, Mehta said. "Instead of the usual range of 120 miles, our UAVs operate for 400 miles off the coast by passing control onto another platform."

In the next few years, the navy plans to induct rotary wing UAVs that would be of immense help, he added.

Asked about Union Home Minister Shivraj Patil's recent remarks about sea-borne threats to vital installations, Mehta said, "He may have said it now, but the navy has been preparing for such a role for a long time."

Replying to another query on reports about the navy planning to set up a base at Madagascar or Mauritius, Mehta said, "There are no such plans."

Stating the need for having two aircraft carriers, the navy chief said the indigenous carrier being built at Cochin would be ready within 10 to 12 years. "Then we can have one carrier each on the western and eastern coasts," he said.

 

[Bull]

Apart from the 33 mentioned India had send RFPs for 7 frigates from Europe which would be linked via military satelite and another 7 subs.

 

[MMG]

Interesting...