PN Capabilities - Indian View

[EagleEyes]

webby....???

The point is. That it is going to take longer than you think.

There are 196 orions in USN service.
I never mentioend about any other national navies, i mentioned USN clearly.

Indeed, but you have to include other navies too. Dont you? More aircrafts more time for the IN to take delivery.

They are scheduled for retirement in 2013 ( 6 years wrt to 5 years i quoted)

They key word in this is "scheduled". The development is still needed to be done. Replacing the fleet will take ages.

Rate of production is 12 -18 a year, 108 have been ordered. So at an average of 15 a year it will take 7 years and few months ( and not 10 or 20 as you say).

Source? Are you telling me that it will take 7 years for the USN to meet its requirements or 7 years for the IN to recieve P-8 when the order has to be placed?

Between whom, India and US? No, they have been invited for user trials in goa.

Yeah. Thats what i was pretty sure about. Competition does lower the prices and you get the good stuff in the end.

Is something wrong with you or is it that im only finding it wierd reading such posts from you?

Criticism baby. Criticism. Its not a heaven of ignorance.

 

[Cheetah786]

Yet, you dont have Tu-22M3. What do you think India would use it for? P-3C can only recieve a threat by the Indian naval fighters ONLY if the aircraft is closed by, which i believe they would be fool to do that. No wonder PN is getting E-2C Hawkeye with a (currently) couple of Mirage squadrons to support them, or hell may be JF-17, or F-16 in the future.

webby indians have 3 TU-22M3.
[URL=http://imageshack.us][/URL]

 

[PakSniper]

webby indians have 3 TU-22M3.
[URL=http://imageshack.us][/URL]

Yes but they are on lease and used for maritime but could also be used for strike purposes.

 

[Adux]

Cheetah,

Its just a rumour, Take it with a pinch of salt. I dont think Tu-22M3 is in Indian Colours nor is the Akula 2

Webby,

In a full blown conflict in the present timeline, including the Airforce Navy and Army, How will PN deny IN superiority? I really would like you to validate your claim? During Analysis, Please keep in my mind, we share borders , and our land based aircrafts can attack sea-based targets, IN has a dedicated IAF Jaguar IM squadron as well as 9 MKI designated for Navy Operations. Dedicated Military satellites, I am awaiting your response on this?

 

[Adux]

And Oh,

Indian P-8's are suposed to be made by the HAL, we have the offsets clause as well the TOT clasue: so USN shedule's dont bother us.

 

[Contrarian]

Webby, if Boeing says that it can deliver the plane, then who are you and me to doubt? Your arguments are based on the fact that it will take time for the planes to be delivered if P-8I is chosen.

BTW Adux, there have been numerous reports on India having leased Akula 2's and Tu's. There was a news report, its posted in BRF, chk it out, it says that though there have been rrumours, nothing is confirmed, however now it is or summat of the sort, i was in a tearing hurry at the time. So there is quite a possibility of India having them, such things are kept classified.

 

[EagleEyes]

Webby, if Boeing says that it can deliver the plane, then who are you and me to doubt? Your arguments are based on the fact that it will take time for the planes to be delivered if P-8I is chosen.

Fully agreed, but i will wait for the Boeings word. Any news on it?

During Analysis, Please keep in my mind, we share borders , and our land based aircrafts can attack sea-based targets, IN has a dedicated IAF Jaguar IM squadron as well as 9 MKI designated for Navy Operations. Dedicated Military satellites, I am awaiting your response on this?

MKI Squadron for the Navy? Source? Thanks.

One general of Pakistan Air Force suggested. Let the navy fight its own war.

If IN decides to engage MKI squadron against the navy it will be likely that some F-16s will be sent to the navy dedicated squadron for protection. Those guys know what they are doing and they will do anything upon a need.

Pakistan Army will tear all the defences of Indian Army and will take the fight inside the Indian territory with the support of the air force. Your Air Force and Army will be engaged against Pakistan so dedicatedly that they wont have a time to think about the navy. Only the dedicated squadrons would be able to conduct their operations.

As for denying Indian Navy superiority that depends on what their tactic, strategy, equipment, aircrafts will be used. Remember that if the conventional war does occur, it would not be as easy as the old ones. The weapons that both sides currently hold are more than just devastating.

Pakistan will have more submarines more surface ships, hence superiority in a short term will be nearly impossible.

 

[Adux]

Malay,

Pls paste a source,

I know there are a lot of offical secrets and stuff.
I suggest you read up on the Akula 2 Nerpa. Gepard and her sister boat Vepr is already in the Russian Navy, Only one is available; and is only 90% complete till now, and Russian Admiral has already confirmed they need them in their Black Sea Fleet. When INS Chakra was leased, they were quite open about, Dont know why they would hide them.

TU-22M3's are yet hear about their deployment. I am actually waiting for Vikramaditya's arrival, We will know for sure. I am sure we would get an SSN, but wether they are the Akula 2 or ATV i am not sure, cuz we need a Shot Gun Escort for the Carrier battle group. We are jumping up places with the new carrier and its fighter wing

 

[Adux]

One general of Pakistan Air Force suggested. Let the navy fight its own war.

Pakistan Army will tear all the defences of Indian Army and will take the fight inside the Indian territory with the support of the air force.

Still not over the criticising thingie webby.

Those are the Kind of Generals, who has made it imperitative to have a Tri-services commander.

Indian Tactic is evident, Till now it was all about Blockade. From Now it is Sea Shore is a third front. The thread on the New Indian Naval Doctrine is already available in this forum.

Pakistan Navy outgunned and outclassed, You have 3 subs that is worth any salt in sea battle in the current secne.

If you want to go by the No airforce particiaption like the genreal said. Pakistan has no aircover, and IN has no Jaguar IM's but still has its SHAR's.

MKI's squadron dedication, is something I have heard, and it has only rumour mill value, You can discard it in our little secanrio.

Indian Navy Ships

1 Present Surface Fleet (141 in Service)
1.1 Aircraft Carriers (1 in Service)
1.2 Destroyers (8 in Service)
1.3 Frigates (13 in Service)
1.4 Corvettes (24 in Service)
1.5 Amphibious Warfare Ships (21 in Service)
1.6 Patrol Ships (28 in Service)
1.7 Minesweepers (14 in Service)
1.8 Inshore Minesweeper (1 in Service)
1.9 Replenishment Tankers (10 in Service)
1.10 Survey ship (8 in Service)
1.11 Research Vessel (1 in Service)
1.12 Training Vessels (2 in Service)
1.13 Sail Training Vessels (2 in Service)
Submarine

Sindhughosh (Kilo) Class (10 in service)

INS Sindhugosh S55 (30 April 1986) - Refit Complete
INS Sindhudhvaj S56 (12 June 1987)
INS Sindhuraj S57 (20 October 1987) - Refit Complete
INS Sindhuvir S58 (26 August 1988) - Refit Complete
INS Sindhuratna S59 (22 December 1988) - Refit Complete
INS Sindhukesari S60 (16 February 1989) - Refit Complete
INS Sindhukirti S61 (04 January 1990) - Undergoing Refit
INS Sindhuvijay S62 (08 March 1991) - Undergoing Refit
INS Sindhurakshak S63 (24 December 1997)
INS Sindhushastra S65 (19 July 2000)

Shishumar (Type 209) Class (4 in service)

INS Shishumar S44 (22 September 1986) - Refit Complete
INS Shankush S45 (20 November 1986)
INS Shalki S46 (07 February 1992)
INS Shankul S47 (28 May 1994) - Undergoing Refit
Foxtrot class (2 in service)

INS Vela S40 (31 August 1973)
INS Vagli S42 (10 August 1974)

Air Wing
Jaguar IS
Sea Harrier Mk.51
Tupolev-142
Ilyushin-38
Do-228-101
HAL Chetak
Sea King Mk.42
Kamov-28
Kamov-25
Kamov-31
Heron and Searcher Mk II
HPT-32, BN-2A/B/T
HJT-16 Kiran Mk.II
Sea Harrier T Mk.60
Hughes 300



Pakistan Navy

The fleet

6 Ex-UK Class Type 21 Frigates
3 French Eridan Class Mine Hunter vessels
? Jalalat Class Missile Boats
4 Sabqat Class (Huangfeng Class) Fast Attack Crafts
2 Shanghai II Class Attack Patrol Gunboats
1 Larkana Class Patrol Boat
2 MRTP 15 Fast Attack Patrol Boats
1 Fuqing Class AOR
1 Poolster Class AOR
2 Coastal Tankers
4 Griffon Ambhibious Assault Ships
1 Hydrographic Survey Vessel, SV Behr Paima
1 Leander Class Frigates Training vessel

Submarines

A total of 6 main submarines plus 3 midget submarines, MG110 are in the Naval inventory.

Daphne class submarine Ghazi (S-134)
3 Agosta-90B class (PNS/M Khalid, PNS/M Saad & PNS/M Hamza)
2 Agosta 70 class (PNS/M Hashmat & PNS/M Hurmat)


Aviation

Currently the PN Aviation Force consists of:

3 Westland Lynx Anti-Ship/Anti-Submarine/Transport Helicopters
6 Westland Sea King Mk45 Transport Helicopters
8 Aerospatiale SA-319B Alouette III Transport/Anti-Ship Helicopters
4 Lockheed P-3C Orion Maritime Surveillance/Anti-Submarine Warfare Aircraft (6 to be delivered)
5 Fokker F27-200 Maritime Surveillance Aircraft
2-3 Breguet Atlantique I Maritime Surveillance/Anti-Submarine Warfare Aircraft.
12+ Dassault Mirage 5 Anti-Ship Fighter Aircraft (Operated by the Pakistan Air Force)



Discard this Information given below.

2 Ships under construction (40 ships being built)
2.1 Aircraft Carriers
2.2 Destroyers
2.3 Frigates
2.4 Corvettes
2.5 Minesweepers
2.6 Amphibious warfare
2.7 Patrol crafts


Future Submarines

An Akula submarine.Six Scorpene (Being built by Mazagaon Dock Ltd., Mumbai)
Six U-214/Amur[1]/S1000 (Under Development by Russia and Italy)[2]
Nuclear Powered Submarines

5-6 Advanced Technology Vessel (ATV) submarine project is still ongoing. (2010) (Being built by the Ship Building Center, Vishakhapatnam)
2 Akula According to many reliable sources it is known that one or two akula submarines will join the forces between 2006 to 2008. India signed a lease/purchase deal with Russia in Moscow in the end of 2005.

Planned ships

2 Indigenous Aircraft Carriers (IAC)
7 Advanced Shivalik-class (Project 17A) Guided Missile Frigate (RFI issued)
3 Landing platform dock[5]
1 Replenishment Tanker

Pakistan Navy

Future acquisitions include:

At least 6 new helicopters to replace the Westland Seaking Mk45.
At least 8 new helicopters to replace the Aerospatiale SA-319B Alouette III
Induction of one fighter squadron by 2009.

The Pakistan Navy ordered six (6) Chinese Z-9EC Anti-Ship/Anti-Submarine/Transport Helicopters. Eight (8) P-3C Orion Surveillance/Anti-Submarine Warfare Aircraft were also ordered (and two delivered) to replace the ageing Fokker and Atlantique aircraft. In December 2006 the U.S State Department notified U.S Congress about a possible sale of another three P-3 Orions to the Pakistan Navy, but equipped with the Hawkeye 2000 AEW&C system.

 

[Contrarian]

Fully agreed, but i will wait for the Boeings word. Any news on it?

Yeah, google it once and you will see tons of reports. Plus Boeing is competing, one way or another, the results will be out by midle of this year itself.

One general of Pakistan Air Force suggested. Let the navy fight its own war.

If IN decides to engage MKI squadron against the navy it will be likely that some F-16s will be sent to the navy dedicated squadron for protection. Those guys know what they are doing and they will do anything upon a need.

Do you realise that if PAF further gives some of its F-16's to PN, they would be dealing a body blow to their own force levels? PAF cannot afford to give planes. IN would easily overpower the PN. Its not so much a competition there.

Pakistan Army will tear all the defences of Indian Army and will take the fight inside the Indian territory with the support of the air force. Your Air Force and Army will be engaged against Pakistan so dedicatedly that they wont have a time to think about the navy.

Do you realise the sheer mass of the Indian force? How do you expect PAF to EVER provide support to PA? They will be trying to save their own planes against the huge mass of the IAF planes flooding the Pakistani airspace. Infact it would be very simple for IAF to provide support to IA, but certainly not PAF to PA.

And how would PA tear the Indian defences? They dont even match the arty systems yet? And INdian systems are set to get even newer guns and Smerch type systems? Plus IA is twice the size of PA, how would PA ever manage to defeat the IA?

Only the dedicated squadrons would be able to conduct their operations.

The IAF and IA dont need to think about the IN, IN is one of the finest foces. It can easily take down the PN, like i said, in the seas, its not so much of a contest.
You should know that its the PN that will need aid to fight the IN, IN is more than sufficient for PN even with aids from PAF. The IN on the other hand will open another front in Pakistan, the new LPD"s are solely for that purpose.

As for denying Indian Navy superiority that depends on what their tactic, strategy, equipment, aircrafts will be used. Remember that if the conventional war does occur, it would not be as easy as the old ones. The weapons that both sides currently hold are more than just devastating.

Sure, but that is why IN has a defense system. They have the superb Barak to guard against the missile threats against the ships, and then Kashtan systems. And soon to come, Barak NG too. So that would make it a three tier defence system. It doesnt get any better than this anywhere in the world. PN has nothing even remotely close. PN would stand no chance mate. If we just take the one carrier and the one CBG that alone would be able to match PN.

Pakistan will have more submarines more surface ships, hence superiority in a short term will be nearly impossible.

Yeah, but relatively in quantity and in quantity IN is wayy ahead. If you take the new comming ships for PN, then take into account ANOTHER Carrier comming for IN, and this one is no joke, it will tilt the BoP mindlessly in our favour. Its twice the size of the existing one, with the planes that you already know of, ALONG with the Scorpene subs that are in construction. Wait a little bit more and you will see one more carrier entering IN service.

 

[Adux]

Sure, but that is why IN has a defense system. They have the superb Barak to guard against the missile threats against the ships, and then Kashtan systems. And soon to come, Barak NG too. So that would make it a three tier defence system. It doesnt get any better than this anywhere in the world.

Tell me How will the PN get in range to launch their weapons. P3-C will be picked up by radar,the moment they leave karachi. PN's Exocet and Harpoon missile capability are known to the IN. Inspite of having the required Defences, You can expect the Mig-29K to engage them on BVR before they get inside range to deliever their packages

 

[Contrarian]

Dude, its not always a Carrier thats on the job. The Carrier is sent in later after some major threats have been neautralised. The frigates and Destroyers that will enter the Naval combat first on Pakistani shores will have to face the missile threats. How the hell will MiG 29K's be ther every time, everywhere?

That is why all the major warships are being fitted with Barak and Kashtan(already there). The "first day of battle" ships will have to face these threats and Barak will perform as it always does, superbly against them.

 

[Adux]

Malay,

You didnt get my point, I was not only talking about the fighters on the Carriers, Pakistan is not a far off country for us, We have land based fighters who can engage airborne targets far before the ships enter the combat zone. IN is know for its ASW, AAW in our ships sadly for now is not that adequate.

 

[sigatoka]

Tell me How will the PN get in range to launch their weapons. P3-C will be picked up by radar,the moment they leave karachi. PN's Exocet and Harpoon missile capability are known to the IN. Inspite of having the required Defences, You can expect the Mig-29K to engage them on BVR before they get inside range to deliever their packages

I want to ask a question, how many planes have been shot down in combat BVR compared to within visual range? The answer i suspect to the dismay of blind proponents of BVR supremacy would be quite embarrassing. BVR combat is great on paper but it ignores the fact that it relies heavily on Radar which can be defeated by opponents counter-measures. Seconldy contrary to most Indian posters here, the organic airdefence that can be provided by India's small aircraft carriers are not very great due to the fact they dont hold many planes in the first place and that the planes that are in the air would be primary dedicated to protecting the Aircraft carrier itself rather than other sea assets because of the fact that India does not possess capable airdefense ships such as Aeigis that other nations do have.

India's naval ability to inflict devastation on Pakistan is tempered by three factors

1. Pakistan has increased storage of key items for the military such as ammunition and oil while the land transport route to Iran has been strengthened reducing pressure on sea routes compared to the past.

2. Systematic upgrading of anti-ship ground launched missiles from Pakistan's shores.

3. Major upgrade of air capability.

 

[Adux]

Sigatoka,

Here are the BVR kills in Gulf War 1 only, Quite impressive
http://www.sci.fi/~fta/score.htm