PLAAF J-10A crashed, pilot died

[Beast]

Indeed J-10 is suffering from a relatively higher crash loss rate compared to most of the other military aircrafts in China, ppl are complaining about this issue recently. The single-engine design, together with the poorly engineered modification of AL-31FN together caused this problem. AL-31 was meant for twin-engine jets, their analog control box was first designed to be on the upper frontal portion of the engine housing, in order to be fitted into J-10, it had to be modified that the control box was moved to the lower portion (AL-31FN version). Apparently this has caused reliability issue that the lube oil get unpredictably overheated under certain conditions, this has been the cause to virtually all J-10 crashes due to "Mechanical Failure".

It is not feasible to ask Russians to redesign the whole stuff, so the only cure to this problem is WS-10 turbofan, which to much of our delight, is being tested and fitted to newer J-10 variants.

How do you come to the conclusion J-10 has a higher crash rate compare to most other military aircraft in China? And the fact Russian AL-31FN engine has long history problem of poor quality. Both China and India have long complain of AL-31 engine issue. It can never be design issue. All the time is the engine stop working.

India defence minister admits Su-30 serviceability issues | IHS Jane's 360

 

[neytirilover]

How do you come to the conclusion J-10 has a higher crash rate compare to most other military aircraft in China? And the fact Russian AL-31FN engine has long history problem of poor quality. Both China and India have long complain of AL-31 engine issue. It can never be design issue. All the time is the engine stop working.

India defence minister admits Su-30 serviceability issues | IHS Jane's 360

Just do a bit of math mate. I agree with you AL-31 series is not truly reliable, but the problem with AL-31FN is a particular one. And of course, everybody knows that the immature TVC tech used on AL-31FP is quite problematic, there is no need for any quotation to that issue. We are now discussing J-10A, not Su-30mki.

By the way, if you agree that AL-31 engine has reliability issues, then how can you disagree that this reliability issue is design-related? After all this is all engineering, and poor reliability=poor engineering.

 

[BoQ77]

Just do a bit of math mate. I agree with you AL-31 series is not truly reliable, but the problem with AL-31FN is a particular one. And of course, everybody knows that the immature TVC tech used on AL-31FP is quite problematic, there is no need for any quotation to that issue. We are now discussing J-10A, not Su-30mki.

By the way, if you agree that AL-31 engine has reliability issues, then how can you disagree that this reliability issue is design-related? After all this is all engineering, and poor reliability=poor engineering.

J-10 losses at 4x min. last 12 month. including the in-production J-10 ( with yellow paint in Pi county ) all blamed by reason Russian engine stop working.
That's understandable that a single engine fighter would be down if the engine stop working.
And the higher rate if there's problem to the engine design or the trimmed variant not working well as original.

So if the J-10 with Russian engines continue to down we find some reason as:
The Chinese engines are still worse than Russian ones.
The replacement didn't succeed

I wonder when we could hear about a J10 with Chinese engine was down. It's very likely there're some accidents for newbies but we didn't hear.

 

[neytirilover]

J-10 losses at 4x min. last 12 month. including the in-production J-10 ( with yellow paint in Pi county ) all blamed by reason Russian engine stop working.
That's understandable that a single engine fighter would be down if the engine stop working.
And the higher rate if there's problem to the engine design or the trimmed variant not working well as original.

So if the J-10 with Russian engines continue to down we find some reason as:
The Chinese engines are still worse than Russian ones.
The replacement didn't succeed

I wonder when we could hear about a J10 with Chinese engine was down. It's very likely there're some accidents for newbies but we didn't hear.

The logic behind your conclusion just won't work:

1. Newly produced J-10B/Cs are being fitted with WS-10. There are photos of batch-production-painted J-10Bs fitted with WS-10 engine now, you can check'em out, this means the replacement succeeded.
2. It is not feasible to replace the Russian engine fitted to the currently in-service 300+ J-10As in a short period of time; before these engines get refitted (most likely won't), Russian engine will probably continue to cause accidents, this does not carry the implication as you have inferred.
3. The reliability issue of WS-10 used to fair pretty bad, but after so many years of incremental optimization and continuous experiments, the reliability and serviceability of WS-10 is greatly improved, and is closer to its Western fellas, while apparently eclipsing the original AL-31 Series. The Russians are also said to have been improving reliability of their Al-31 (unfortunately, not with the older versions of Al-31F and FN), the extent to which it has improved is unknown.
4. The bottleneck of WS-10 is its delay in time frame, and shortage of supply.

There is no crash of J-10 with WS-10, partly due to the high reliability of this engine, also because the significantly lower quantity of those flying. Hopefully we will see very few J-10 crashes due to WS-10 in the future, after they are massively inducted.

 

[BoQ77]

The logic behind your conclusion just won't work:

1. Newly produced J-10B/Cs are being fitted with WS-10. There are photos of batch-production-painted J-10Bs fitted with WS-10 engine now, you can check'em out, this means the replacement succeeded.
2. It is not feasible to replace the Russian engine fitted to the currently in-service 300+ J-10As in a short period of time; before these engines get refitted (most likely won't), Russian engine will probably continue to cause accidents, this does not carry the implication as you have inferred.
3. The reliability issue of WS-10 used to fair pretty bad, but after so many years of incremental optimization and continuous experiments, the reliability and serviceability of WS-10 is greatly improved, and is closer to its Western fellas, while apparently eclipsing the original AL-31 Series. The Russians are also said to have been improving reliability of their Al-31 (unfortunately, not with the older versions of Al-31F and FN), the extent to which it has improved is unknown.
4. The bottleneck of WS-10 is its delay in time frame, and shortage of supply.

There is no crash of J-10 with WS-10, partly due to the high reliability of this engine, also because the significantly lower quantity of those flying. Hopefully we will see very few J-10 crashes due to WS-10 in the future, after they are massively inducted.

You didn't notice the Nov 2014 Crash, a newly build with Russian engine. As your logic the newly build must be with WS10?
@Deino: what is your idea?

 

[neytirilover]

You didn't notice the Nov 2014 Crash, a newly build with Russian engine. As your logic the newly build must be with WS10?
@Deino: what is your idea?

Nov 2014 batch is NOT a newly built in this case, these photos of WS-10 J-10s came out one or two months ago, so you might wanna take the context into consideration. After all, "newly built" is not a precise description of time, so how new is "newly built" is subject to my discretion but that been said, when I put it that way, I AM saying that WS-10-equipped batch J-10s are being built, some of them already finished. It doesn't matter whether they built them last year or just yesterday, the point is THEY HAVE BUILT THEM.

 

[BoQ77]

Nov 2014 batch is NOT a newly built in this case, these photos of WS-10 J-10s came out one or two months ago, so you might wanna take the context into consideration. After all, "newly built" is not a precise description of time, so how new is "newly built" is subject to my discretion but that been said, when I put it that way, I AM saying that WS-10-equipped batch J-10s are being built, some of them already finished. It doesn't matter whether they built them last year or just yesterday, the point is THEY HAVE BUILT THEM.

Oh ah, misunderstood.
So you stated that WS-10 didn't equip to J-10 until recent months ?

Are these photos of test flight ?

 

[BoQ77]

today another J10 broken midair.

 

[Chika_Pika]

yesterday another J10 broken midair.

Source?

 

[BoQ77]

Source?

Chinese J-10 fighter aircraft crashed in Zhejiang | Defence blog

 

[Chika_Pika]

Chinese J-10 fighter aircraft crashed in Zhejiang | Defence blog

@cnleio[/USER] bro can you verify this news

 

[cnleio]

@cnleio[/USER] bro can you verify this news

Yes, details see this
Chengdu: J-10/FC-20 Multirole Fighter Air Craft

 

[Chika_Pika]

Yes, details see this
Chengdu: J-10/FC-20 Multirole Fighter Air Craft

Sad incident, Hope China to investigate and rectify the root problem

 

[cnleio]

Sad incident, Hope China to investigate and rectify the root problem

Not a big deal, my friend ... China built about 300+ J-10A and J-10S fighters, there'r just crashed 4% now.

 

[BoQ77]

Not a big deal, my friend ... China built about 300+ J-10A and J-10S fighters, there'r just crashed 4% now.

Oh no, the previous crash just last month.