PLA would lose 40% of its fleet to sink a US carrier

[sovcomflot]

You are way off base.

The purpose of a navy is not to control the sea, but to control the sea to support the land campaign. Winning a war is still land centric, either to literally conquer a country or to isolate it. So the purpose of an aircraft carrier is to provide quick air support, attack from the 3rd dimension. A submarine cannot do that. Submerged, a sub cannot run as fast as a surface vessel. Fleet against fleet will still need air power because only with air power can bring large amount of weapons to bear.

WW II is the first war when fleets can fight each other without being within sight of each other. The PLAN have literally no experience at this type of naval warfare. The PLAN fleet will be sunk without the US seeing it.

Last week, for three days running, the Washington Times carried front-page stories about the interception of a U.S. Navy aircraft carrier, the Kitty Hawk, by a Chinese submarine. The submarine, a Song-class diesel-electric boat, popped up undetected in the middle of a carrier battle group, which was operating in deep water off Okinawa. Armed with Russian-made wake-homing torpedo’s that can ruin a carrier’s day, the sub was well within range of the Kitty Hawk when it surfaced.

While the Washington Times headline read "Admiral says sub risked a shootout," the incident meant little in itself. Navies play these kinds of "Gotcha!" games with each other all the time; both U.S. and Soviet subs were quite good at it during the Cold War. Since neither the U.S. nor China is seeking war, there was no danger of a naval Marco Polo Bridge Incident. The paper quoted an unidentified U.S. Navy official as saying, correctly, "We were operating in international waters, and they were operating in international waters. From that standpoint, nobody was endangering anybody. Nobody felt threatened."

There are, still, some lessons here. One is that, contrary to the U.S. Navy’s fervent belief, the aircraft carrier is no longer the capital ship. It ceded that role long ago to the submarine. In one naval exercise after another, the sub sinks the carriers. The carriers just pretend it didn’t happen and carry on with the rest of the exercise.

About thirty years ago, my first boss, Senator Robert Taft Jr. of Ohio, asked Admiral Hyman Rickover how long he thought the U.S. aircraft carriers would last in the war with the Soviet navy, which was largely a submarine navy. Rickover’s answer, on the record in a hearing of the Senate Armed Services Committee, was, "About two days." The Committee, needless to say, went on to approve buying more carriers.
Davy Jones’s Locker – LewRockwell.com

I think the article says enough.The age of carrier is over.Its the age of submarines. Submarines can be armed with several cruise missiles also to do the initial job with minimal losses which could later be followed up by destroyers armed with cruise missiles at cheaper costs after the submarines decimate the enemy surface fleet.

F-35 VTOL option is excellent though.You can use cargo ships for staging attacks on the enemy forces.

 

[Black Widow]

Aircraft carrier is obsolete .While I am convinced that PLAN would destroy large number of carriers and the US surface fleet,ultimately PLAN would lose the naval war due to american superiority in submarines.Submarines are the true game changers in naval war.

No my frnd they are not.. Just because very few country use it, doesn't mean its obsolete.. Oceans are vast, its highly impossible to track a Carrier (even though it is 1,00,000 Tonns). If tracked its highly difficult to destroy...

2 Nimitz class carriers carry Fighter planes equal to Entire Pakistani Air force..

 

[sovcomflot]

No my frnd they are not.. Just because very few country use it, doesn't mean its obsolete.. Oceans are vast, its highly impossible to track a Carrier (even though it is 1,00,000 Tonns). If tracked its highly difficult to destroy...

2 Nimitz class carriers carry Fighter planes equal to Entire Pakistani Air force..

Ocean recon satellites can detect carriers.You are mistaken . A few yakhonts or Kh-22 or granit type missiles for a carrier group and there is very high probability that carrier will be lost. Plus now there is that mach 20 Df-21 . Age of carrier and surface fleet is over. Now is the age of electric and nuclear submarines and smart platforms like undersea robots or VTOL type planes/ drones that could be launched from cargo ships also.

 

[Black Widow]

Ocean recon satellites can detect carriers.You are mistaken . A few yakhonts or Kh-22 or granit type missiles for a carrier group and there is very high probability that carrier will be lost. Plus now there is that mach 20 Df-21 . Age of carrier and surface fleet is over. Now is the age of electric and nuclear submarines and smart platforms like undersea robots or VTOL type planes/ drones that could be launched from cargo ships also.

Almost all ballistic missile achieve mach 15+, Ballistic missiles can not be guided as cruise missiles.. You heard of CEP[1]? The Carriers are few hundred meter long (Nimitz 300X70 Meter) If a missile has CEP of 35 m, the missile will surely miss the carrier.

To hit a moving Target by ballistic missile is difficult. On land even if missile miss the taget, it cause considerable damage.In sea if missile miss the target it will hit the sea floor Km away from Target..


Imagine Russia had Missiles since decades, Why didn't russian thought to handle Carriers with Ballistic missiles???



Circular error probable - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[jhungary]

I think the article says enough.The age of carrier is over.Its the age of submarines. Submarines can be armed with several cruise missiles also to do the initial job with minimal losses which could later be followed up by destroyers armed with cruise missiles at cheaper costs after the submarines decimate the enemy surface fleet.

F-35 VTOL option is excellent though.You can use cargo ships for staging attacks on the enemy forces.

The kitty hawk story is like 8 years old, the kitty hawk itself were decommissioned in 2009 and itself were a 40 years old ship....

 

[sovcomflot]

Almost all ballistic missile achieve mach 15+, Ballistic missiles can not be guided as cruise missiles.. You heard of CEP[1]? The Carriers are few hundred meter long (Nimitz 300X70 Meter) If a missile has CEP of 35 m, the missile will surely miss the carrier.

To hit a moving Target by ballistic missile is difficult. On land even if missile miss the taget, it cause considerable damage.In sea if missile miss the target it will hit the sea floor Km away from Target..


Imagine Russia had Missiles since decades, Why didn't russian thought to handle Carriers with Ballistic missiles???



Circular error probable - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Russian missiles mainly used Inertial navigation.Primarily meant for operations in nuclear war as majority of the satellites would be taken down by Conventional or nuclear ASAT systems.

China’s DF-21D (Dong Feng) Anti-Ship Ballistic Missile (ASBM) is now operational with the extended range of up to 3000 kms, which gives China a proper cover against US Naval Aircraft Carrier Strike Groups in Pacific Ocean and all the uncovered sea, which was a clear threat to China from World’s Strongest and most advanced US Navy. The Chinese missile is the world’s first ASBM with the flashing speed of Mach 10 giving it the status of ‘High Hypersonic.’ The US looked at this system, as a clear threat to its Carrier Groups, and they have no counter system for this missile. The missile launches from maneuverable reentry vehicles (MaRVs) and reaches its destination with the help of UAVs and satellites. China has recently launched a series of satellites to support its ASBM efforts:

Yaogan-VII electro-optical satellite – 9 December 2009
Yaogan-VIII synthetic aperture radar satellite – 14 December 2009
Yaogan-IX Naval Ocean Surveillance System (NOSS) constellation (3 satellites in formation) – 5 March 2010
Yaogan-XVI Naval Ocean Surveillance System (NOSS) constellation – 25 November 2012

Chinese DF-21D Missile a Threat to US NAVY

Satellite guidance tends to make Missiles a lot more accurate.

To hit a moving Target by ballistic missile is difficult. On land even if missile miss the taget, it cause considerable damage.In sea if missile miss the target it will hit the sea floor Km away from Target..

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/chines...ts-fleet-sink-us-carrier-9.html#ixzz2hz3AYCOS

An HE warhead would compensate for slight inaccuracy.Even considerable damage to the carrier deck by HE warhead explosion would disable carrier operations for a good time period.

Imagine Russia had Missiles since decades, Why didn't russian thought to handle Carriers with Ballistic missiles???


Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/chines...ts-fleet-sink-us-carrier-9.html#ixzz2hz3USpa4

Russians did .But using ICBM's would be viewed as precursor to start of nuclear war.


Cold War Submarines: The Design and Construction of U.S. and Soviet Submarines - Norman Polmar, Kenneth J. Moore - Google Books

 

[Nav84]

YOU should think about your country that how to come out of this big mess your country in!! Your country have no status in this world!!

Pakistan will make sure to finish tensions between China and USA, the real enemy of humanity is endia.

 

[feilong]

I know what the author in this article aiming about? The whole article saying china will lose 40% of its fleet, that right it is mention about 40% fishing boat arm guns also call fleet as well. Lol, so US carriers is can only be compared to fishing boats. This article really makes American hype. But if read carefully it only saying 40% fishing boat from china will be get destroy, so after that DF21d finish the job.

 

[Rafi]

YOU should think about your country that how to come out of this big mess your country in!! Your country have no status in this world!!

The hunger problem in your country alone indicates the massive mess your country is in.

 

[My-Analogous]

There nothing to debate when and if or why China and US will fight a major war, China did fight a major war with US in Korea, they didn't get totally wipe off in this planet, don't think China can easily be defeat by the mighty US navy. Always comeback to history, history seem to show China can stand to fight against the US military. Like only US have the military might and China sit idle and can't come up with the counter measure against US threat. China spend 160 billions US dollar on their military annual, and most in the west believe China under claim their defend budget annually, you think China spend 200 billions US dollar for nothing and don't serve the purpose of defend deterrent toward the US fleet station in Asia? China spend 1/4 of US military budget without spent on fighting 2 front war.

Bro i want to add one thing that Chinese tech is 1/3 cheaper then US and that 200 billion will be equal to US 600 billion

 

[My-Analogous]

No my frnd they are not.. Just because very few country use it, doesn't mean its obsolete.. Oceans are vast, its highly impossible to track a Carrier (even though it is 1,00,000 Tonns). If tracked its highly difficult to destroy...

2 Nimitz class carriers carry Fighter planes equal to Entire Pakistani Air force..

Humm... let me see one nimitz class can carry 85 to 90 planes, so two can carry 180 to 190 planes. PAF have 460 fighter planes. Please explain me how we fit 460 planes in two Nimitz class?. Before post do some research

 

[gambit]

I think the article says enough.The age of carrier is over.Its the age of submarines. Submarines can be armed with several cruise missiles also to do the initial job with minimal losses which could later be followed up by destroyers armed with cruise missiles at cheaper costs after the submarines decimate the enemy surface fleet.

F-35 VTOL option is excellent though.You can use cargo ships for staging attacks on the enemy forces.

Yeah...The article says you are a sucker. And I said that kindly.

If it is true that a Chinese diesel sub did managed to do intentionally, then why did the PLAN do something so stupid as to reveal such ability of its sub skippers and subs? What a sub can do is any navy's top secrets. So why would I want to toss it out for a potential adversary to know, especially when he is many times more powerful than I to start? If I was in charge of China and if it turned out the sub captain did that on purpose, I would have him and the sub's entire officer complement shot for stupidity, and the enlisted crew demoted to the lowest rank and sentenced to KP for the rest of their term.

This is not to say that incident did not happened. This is to say why it happened and in past postsI have explained how could it happened. You posted old news that have been debunked.

 

[A.Rafay]

China would have to sacrifice up to 40% of its People's Liberation Army Navy fleet in an attempt to sink a super aircraft carrier like the USS Gerald R Ford in a campaign, according to a report from the Moscow-based Military-Industrial Courier.

China currently possesses several effective weapons systems that could be used against a US carrier battle group, including its DF-21D anti-ship ballistic missiles and 12 guided-missile destroyers. The country's two Type 051C and six Type 052C destroyers are all equipped with anti-ship missiles such as the YJ-83, C-805 and YJ-62, and they would also pose a serious threat against US carriers within the Asia-Pacific region. In addition, China has purchased four Sovremenny-class destroyers equipped with Moskit SSM P-270 anti-ship missiles from Russia, the report said.

Aside from the Liaoning, the country's first aircraft carrier, the PLA Navy currently has 15 Type 054A frigates carrying HQ-16 surface-to-air missile within its vertical launching system. With the capability to defend the Chinese fleet against the US carrier-based aircrafts, Type 054A is able to sink enemy vessel with its C-803 anti-ship missile as well.

If a US carrier battle group were to enter the waters of the Chinese coast, the PLA Navy could also deploy its 10 Type 056 corvettes and 40 Type 022 missile boats to fight in guerrilla warfare at sea against the US Navy, the report said. Both vessels able to launch anti-ship missiles such as YJ-83 and C-803 and the United States Navy would loses 10% of its strength in the region if one of its carriers were to be sunk.

However, the PLA Navy would not be able to sink a US aircraft carrier easily. According to the Forbes magazine, several countermethods have been developed by the US Navy to defend its aircraft carriers from Chinese attacks. While long-range unmanned aerial vehicles are able to destroy Chinese missile facilities, F-35 fighters with a combat range of 200 and 300 nautical miles enables the US ships to fight without entering the Chinese coastline.

The Military-Industrial Courier estimated that between 30%-40% of China's total naval strength would be lost to simply destroy one US carrier. Meanwhile, the biggest weakness for the US Navy in a potential conflict with the PLA Navy would be how to deploy its 11 carriers, 88 surface combat vessels, 55 Littoral Combat Ships and 31 amphibious assault ships to the Western Pacific in a short period of time, the report said.

PLA Navy would lose 40% of its fleet to sink a US carrier: report

This article doesnt mention CM-400AKG Carrier killer at all.

 

[Destro]

Yeah...The article says you are a sucker. And I said that kindly.

If it is true that a Chinese diesel sub did managed to do intentionally, then why did the PLAN do something so stupid as to reveal such ability of its sub skippers and subs? What a sub can do is any navy's top secrets. So why would I want to toss it out for a potential adversary to know, especially when he is many times more powerful than I to start? If I was in charge of China and if it turned out the sub captain did that on purpose, I would have him and the sub's entire officer complement shot for stupidity, and the enlisted crew demoted to the lowest rank and sentenced to KP for the rest of their term.

This is not to say that incident did not happened. This is to say why it happened and in past postsI have explained how could it happened. You posted old news that have been debunked.

STILL a$$ burning over the fact that our old submarines made a mockery of American carrier battle groups

If Americans couldn't detect our old submarines, they don't have a chance in hell detecting our newer subs

Even former US military officials like Larry Wortzel has admitted the incident did happen

 

[Destro]

See post 101...

http://www.defence.pk/forums/chines...-its-fleet-sink-us-carrier-7.html#post4875067

And get a dose of reality.

First learn to intercept the DF-21D first, then you can think about reality

The PLAN. The Chinese Navy. Not China, the country.

The PLAN will be defeated. Whatever the size of the PLA, it will be impotent. And just because we can defeat the PLAN and we will if it comes down to that, it does not mean we will invade mainland China.

Our submarines and DF-21D are more than enough to put the entire US navy into the scrap heap of history

Has the US ever defeated China in war? Neeeeeeh

But we have waxed you in war, you know when

Try harder, you're gonna need to do a lot more than that sonny boy.