PIA plane crash near Model Colony Karachi with 93+ on board

[Thorough Pro]

It's looking more and more like a pilot error bringing it too hot and high, a docile/submissive "yes-sir" co-pilot not pro-actively monitoring the situation and calling for a go-around, a passive/submissive ATC not exercising his authority to decline clearance for landing while seeing the plane was too hot and high to safely land.

What's needed is a change in mind-set, the pilot might be experienced and senior but there is a reason why there are two pilots in the cockpit, if the second one has to stay quiet and go along with anything the main pilot does, then he is not doing his job and is not needed in the cockpit.

Maybe there is a need to review/modify the protocols for take-off and landing with co-pilot taking more assertive role. ATC's own the airspace and GC's own the runways, they need to be more authoritative and assertive and should be able to call shots, when they see that the conditions are not right for the planes to take-off or land safely.

 

[Ivan]

I'm afraid that might be it. If he were at landing speed with the gear up, no freaking way they would have been able to perform a go-around. His 1st approach is probably nuts, flying inches above the ground on the runway....and bounce it a few times before advancing N1 to TOGA.


He may have been calm, which is prudent by his profession. But the aircrew messed up big time. No medal shall come if it is determined to be pilot error. As pointed out by pilots, he's no hero, yet tried to fix up his errors which unfortunately became mistakes.

"An error does not become a mistake unless it is refused to be corrected" - JFK

Sir I just read a comment here stating short functional history of this AC according to which it had landing gear problem:

"The aircraft in question (AP-BLD, msn 2274) experienced two safety-related incidents:

2018-09-04 bird-strike Faisalabad, radome damage

2017-09-05 hydraulic failure on appr. to Lahore, flightcrew had to lower the gear by alternate system

Source(s): JACDEC Database"


Now this same AC had to take 3 rounds and try deploying landing gear, that finally succeeded as can be seen in CCTV footage before crash.

My point is, it looks like the management was improvising with easyfix. Again, the management won`t let anyone point fingers at them. And interestingly it is again them who have to come up with a report about all this.

 

[Asterisk]

Sir I just read a comment here stating short functional history of this AC according to which it had landing gear problem:

"The aircraft in question (AP-BLD, msn 2274) experienced two safety-related incidents:

2018-09-04 bird-strike Faisalabad, radome damage

2017-09-05 hydraulic failure on appr. to Lahore, flightcrew had to lower the gear by alternate system

Source(s): JACDEC Database"


Now this same AC had to take 3 rounds and try deploying landing gear, that finally succeeded as can be seen in CCTV footage before crash.

My point is, it looks like the management was improvising with easyfix. Again, the management won`t let anyone point fingers at them. And interestingly it is again them who have to come up with a report about all this.

Just because the AC had a landing gear issue in the past doesn't mean an easyfix was used or was the cause of this crash. It is a possibility, but several things don't add up.
A problem with landing gear would not make the flight crew ignore speed and altitude warnings, miss waypoints and attempt a high speed gear up landing without alerting ATC, continuing to land while an alarm buzzes in the cockpit etc. A landing gear failure absolutely doesn't make the flight crew do such things.
If they could not lower the gear, there were many things that needed to be done for a belly landing like alerting the ATC so rescue teams could move near the runway,using up fuel to lower fire risk, approaching the runway with low speed and land the AC as level as possible.This was evidently not done.

In case of a landing gear failure, the AC is supposed to stay in air and troubleshoot the problem.
The landing gear can be lowered by multiple methods:
- LGCIU - Doesn't work if AC speed is greater than 260 kts, which it probably was.
- Landing gear gravity extension handle

The AC did not take 3 rounds trying to deploy landing gear. What the plane did 3 times as to scrape the engines on runway during/before the go around on its first high speed approach. The AC deployed landing gear on second approach with failing engines, which was a mistaken move.

 

[MastanKhan]

I'm afraid that might be it. If he were at landing speed with the gear up, no freaking way they would have been able to perform a go-around. His 1st approach is probably nuts, flying inches above the ground on the runway....and bounce it a few times before advancing N1 to TOGA.


He may have been calm, which is prudent by his profession. But the aircrew messed up big time. No medal shall come if it is determined to be pilot error. As pointed out by pilots, he's no hero, yet tried to fix up his errors which unfortunately became mistakes.

"An error does not become a mistake unless it is refused to be corrected" - JFK

Hi,

If I had a say---I would have put all the pilots going back to work after Covid Break thru a sort of simulation training---if simulator was not available then VERBAL simulator training to refresh them up for all aspects of flight and emergencies.

Just like the cricket news---says our fast bowlers need at least two months to be ready for test matches---.

I believe that Covic has played havoc with the mental conditioning of a lots of people---and the professionals and any one else going back to work or still working needs to be given some kind of basic general training kind of talk---.

Sir I just read a comment here stating short functional history of this AC according to which it had landing gear problem:

"The aircraft in question (AP-BLD, msn 2274) experienced two safety-related incidents:

2018-09-04 bird-strike Faisalabad, radome damage

2017-09-05 hydraulic failure on appr. to Lahore, flightcrew had to lower the gear by alternate system

Source(s): JACDEC Database"


Now this same AC had to take 3 rounds and try deploying landing gear, that finally succeeded as can be seen in CCTV footage before crash.

My point is, it looks like the management was improvising with easyfix. Again, the management won`t let anyone point fingers at them. And interestingly it is again them who have to come up with a report about all this.

Hi,

Welcome to the forum---. The true disappointment here is that after reading your comments---seems like you have not heard anything that is being said for the last couple of days---.

That is really really sad---.

It's looking more and more like a pilot error bringing it too hot and high, a docile/submissive "yes-sir" co-pilot not pro-actively monitoring the situation and calling for a go-around, a passive/submissive ATC not exercising his authority to decline clearance for landing while seeing the plane was too hot and high to safely land.

What's needed is a change in mind-set, the pilot might be experienced and senior but there is a reason why there are two pilots in the cockpit, if the second one has to stay quiet and go along with anything the main pilot does, then he is not doing his job and is not needed in the cockpit.

Maybe there is a need to review/modify the protocols for take-off and landing with co-pilot taking more assertive role. ATC's own the airspace and GC's own the runways, they need to be more authoritative and assertive and should be able to call shots, when they see that the conditions are not right for the planes to take-off or land safely.

Hi,

Exactly my point---why does PIOA need a co-pilot---.

Might as well have an air hostess sitting in the co-pilots seat---.

No, the Boeing data cames months later. Originally the LionAir flight was also attributed to "inexplicable" pilot error.

Hi,

Your comments are misleading---. The initial assessment by different analystrs stayed the same---either before or after the data---.

The 737 MAX had issues---had one sensor that created the issue---the second sensor was an option---. A long time ago---2 sensors of the same type were standard---then it became a money making issue and the second sensor became an option---.

The issue over here is not an out of control aircraft---the issue of here is why was the pilot out of control---. Why did the pilot negate the air traffic control every time the air traffic made a suggestion or made a comment to the pilot.

 

[sparten]

Hi,

Your comments are misleading---. The initial assessment by different analystrs stayed the same---either before or after the data---.

The 737 MAX had issues---had one sensor that created the issue---the second sensor was an option---. A long time ago---2 sensors of the same type were standard---then it became a money making issue and the second sensor became an option---.

The issue over here is not an out of control aircraft---the issue of here is why was the pilot out of control---. Why did the pilot negate the air traffic control every time the air traffic made a suggestion or made a comment to the pilot.

No. The 737Max did have issues. The official stance from Boeing was that any competent pilot should be able to recognize it and make the necessary adjustment. As it turned out, not only was it not easily recognizable, it was also not easily recoverable once it was recognized late. Boeing was busy blaming "Asian Aircrew".

 

[Ivan]

They probably didn't as they did a manual gear down after they aborted the landing, can't be sure as there is no evidence "yet" indicating they did but seeing as the aircraft did come down with the gear down this whole episode is confusing at best.

I think there should be at least 1 camera along the runway to monitor such incidents in future.

 

[Raider 21]

Hi,

If I had a say---I would have put all the pilots going back to work after Covid Break thru a sort of simulation training---if simulator was not available then VERBAL simulator training to refresh them up for all aspects of flight and emergencies.

Just like the cricket news---says our fast bowlers need at least two months to be ready for test matches---.

I believe that Covic has played havoc with the mental conditioning of a lots of people---and the professionals and any one else going back to work or still working needs to be given some kind of basic general training kind of talk---.



Hi,

Welcome to the forum---. The true disappointment here is that after reading your comments---seems like you have not heard anything that is being said for the last couple of days---.

That is really really sad---.



Hi,

Exactly my point---why does PIOA need a co-pilot---.

Might as well have an air hostess sitting in the co-pilots seat---.



Hi,

Your comments are misleading---. The initial assessment by different analystrs stayed the same---either before or after the data---.

The 737 MAX had issues---had one sensor that created the issue---the second sensor was an option---. A long time ago---2 sensors of the same type were standard---then it became a money making issue and the second sensor became an option---.

The issue over here is not an out of control aircraft---the issue of here is why was the pilot out of control---. Why did the pilot negate the air traffic control every time the air traffic made a suggestion or made a comment to the pilot.

Pakistan does not have any A320 full flight simulators. They do courses abroad as usual to this day. With Covid impact I doubt anyone got recertified having not flown in 2 months or so. Still, their applied CRM paid the price.

 

[Baghial]

I think there should be at least 1 camera along the runway to monitor such incidents in future.

dont worry , there are many camera,s on runway, and around ......
if the govt feels , who to blame. then maybe they will release some video,s

but for the moment ATC,, RELEASES JUST 90 SEC,OF AUDIO?

WHY NOT THE LAST 10/15 MINUTES?

I SUPPOSE , ALL THE BLAME WILL BE ON THE PILOT, WHO CANT DEFEND ANYMORE?

 

[Ivan]

dont worry , there are many camera,s on runway, and around ......
if the govt feels , who to blame. then maybe they will release some video,s

but for the moment ATC,, RELEASES JUST 90 SEC,OF AUDIO?

WHY NOT THE LAST 10/15 MINUTES?

I SUPPOSE , ALL THE BLAME WILL BE ON THE PILOT, WHO CANT DEFEND ANYMORE?

Sir that`s my point. Feeding selective information to the public can mould the story anyway they want to.

 

[wgr2013]

Last 4 aviation disasters including this one in Pakistan are now domestic flights. Need to check for lack of training

 

[Ivan]

The reason despite all the available data that is made public, pilots and experts are still puzzled with so many unanswered questions is because the bits of information that is shared is not adding up to a clear and complete picture. It is all about perception management.

 

[Ivan]

Welcome to the forum---. The true disappointment here is that after reading your comments---seems like you have not heard anything that is being said for the last couple of days---.

That is really really sad---.

Assalam-U-Alaikum Sir!
Thank you for welcoming me here. I am honored.
And my heartfelt apologies for my dissent and skepticism. But something tells me the pilot is not to be blamed.

Eid Mubarik Sir!

 

[Raider 21]

Assalam-U-Alaikum Sir!
Thank you for welcoming me here. I am honored.
And my heartfelt apologies for my dissent and skepticism. But something tells me the pilot is not to be blamed.

Eid Mubarik Sir!

Eid Mubarik to you too !!!

Why the pilot is not to be blamed or I'd say pointed out for their mistakes. It has a lot of pilot error written on it based on the public info. Has not been been fully investigated yet, not to mention chances are that they may not release findings to the Pakistani public as that would undermine the confidence of the already high status they have bestowed on fliers.

 

[appliedfor]

Some points still pending. We can't conclude yet its pilot error without them.

1. The CCTV video of runway. (It can show if landing gear was stuck and aircraft touches the ground)
2. The contol Tower conversation before first attempt. (currently only available on second attempt of landing and aircraft crashes)
3. Decoding the black box and check the conversation if there is any problem in landing gear..

 

[Taimoor Khan]

Mahashay, pehle me kya bola oh dekh ke reply karna.
I saidin previous posts that such airports should be moved out far from civilian areas or create a no house zone with examples.....

Its better to keep your mouth shut when people think you are stupid rather than open your wisdom and prove it

Indian stinking turd, you had a itch to express your pearls of wisdom without even realising that most Indian airports are right bang in the middle of their population. Infact, most mega cities around the world have got same situation. London Heathrow is much worse

Its a fact of our daily lives that we have to live with. Why waste forum bandwidth with such garbage?