El Sidd
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There is no harm in keep tryingWe saw what happened with Stuxnext.
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There is no harm in keep tryingWe saw what happened with Stuxnext.
You are totally correct. But the Persian-speaking people came to the subcontinent not as colonizers. And those people who subsequently wrote in Persian were not colonizers. I'm not denying that Urdu be the national language. I'm saying that Persian is inseparable from the Urdu heritage. It should NOT be treated as a foreign not taught as a foreign language, but as a classical language.Ok but tell me honestly wasn’t the Persian language also influenced by other languages through their contacts with others civilizations ?
Every language is able to evolve, it only depends on the abilities of the people who use it.
So if we just created Pakistan today we could have set Persian as our language but now we already set Urdu as our national language. At historical timescale 70 years is nothing. But at individual level it’s very long.
So we started with Urdu, stay with it, and focus on it.
Everything written by South Asians till 1837, when the British forced your ancestors to give up Persian.
For example, if you want to learn about the deeds of the Sultans, you need to look at their Persian panegyrics.
If you want to learn about the history of Muslims in South Asia before the British came, you need to read works in Persian.
Even after 1837, Sir Allama Iqbal wrote his best works in Persian. Isn't he considered the spiritual father of Pakistan? Yet nobody reads his most important works?
Will never work unless they create their own devices, based on their own architectures, your own protocoles etc, you could use every language to encrypt your coms, if you use intel processors you are doomed.There is no harm in keep trying
You are totally correct. But the Persian-speaking people came to the subcontinent not as colonizers. And those people who subsequently wrote in Persian were not colonizers. I'm not denying that Urdu be the national language. I'm saying that Persian is inseparable from the Urdu heritage. It should NOT be treated as a foreign not taught as a foreign language, but as a classical language.
The British were different. The impact of European imperialism still exists in modern Pakistan. Let's not pretend that English and Urdu are really perceived as equally prestigious. The permeation of English in modern Urdu discourse gives Pakistanis an inferior complex with compared to Europeans. It's as if all the elevated speech were English.
A nation needs to unite its people with a cultural heritage. And that cannot be the Anglocentric colonial one. You HAVE TO look back before the colonial rule. And that's when Persian was the lingua franca from Iraq to Bengal.
The Persian language is central to South Asia's Muslim heritage. Pakistan was built to be a nation-state of South Asian Muslims. So why is Persian not taught in Pakistani schools? It should be treated as a classical heritage language. One can not fully appreciate Urdu literature without studying Persian literature.
If Pakistan should seek its national identity, it should be a South Asian Persianate one. In fact, many non-Muslims (Hindus, Sikhs, Christians) participated in the South Asian Persianate cultural milieu. Pakistan should revive this pan-religious cultural heritage, which is lost in India and Bangladesh.
The Persianate heritage is deeply tolerant regarding religions. Some of the best South Asian poets wrote in Persian. Allama Iqbal wrote mostly in Persian; The poems carved on the walls of Taj Mahal are in Persian; It's sad that these cultural achievements are not appreciated by today's South Asians. India and Bangladesh decide to abandon it. Pakistan should pick it up. It's a distinctive South Asian cultural identity that is historically linked to Muslims. By embracing it Pakistan can distinguish itself from India and Bangladesh, yet not forget its own South Asian, rather than Arab or Turkic identity.
Persian shouldn't be a difficult language to learn to read if one knows Urdu. Pakistani students should learn it the same way as Westerners learn Latin: to have some reading capabilities to get access to its culture heritage.
The Persian language is central to South Asia's Muslim heritage. Pakistan was built to be a nation-state of South Asian Muslims. So why is Persian not taught in Pakistani schools? It should be treated as a classical heritage language. One can not fully appreciate Urdu literature without studying Persian literature.
If Pakistan should seek its national identity, it should be a South Asian Persianate one. In fact, many non-Muslims (Hindus, Sikhs, Christians) participated in the South Asian Persianate cultural milieu. Pakistan should revive this pan-religious cultural heritage, which is lost in India and Bangladesh.
The Persianate heritage is deeply tolerant regarding religions. Some of the best South Asian poets wrote in Persian. Allama Iqbal wrote mostly in Persian; The poems carved on the walls of Taj Mahal are in Persian; It's sad that these cultural achievements are not appreciated by today's South Asians. India and Bangladesh decide to abandon it. Pakistan should pick it up. It's a distinctive South Asian cultural identity that is historically linked to Muslims. By embracing it Pakistan can distinguish itself from India and Bangladesh, yet not forget its own South Asian, rather than Arab or Turkic identity.
Persian shouldn't be a difficult language to learn to read if one knows Urdu. Pakistani students should learn it the same way as Westerners learn Latin: to have some reading capabilities to get access to its culture heritage.
Farsi or Persian was the lingua franca of the Mughul Court and Urdu is heavily influenced by Farsi. It would be very easy for Pakistanis to adopt Farsi as Afghan Dari is also Farsi based. It would be very beneficial for Pakistanis is terms of unified national identity and social, economic and cultural integration with Iran and Afghanistan and Tajikistan.
Indeed. The way some Pakistanis pander themselves to Turkey is sickening.
I'm Chinese living in America. But I'm interested in the Persianate heritage and I am learning Farsi.@peagle We were discussing this the other day.
I am very curious about whether you are actually Chinese and American.
I understand if you are Pakistani or Afghan, we have vested interests in the Dari language, but it seems a little strange coming from your background (if your flags are correct.)
I can definitely see Pukhto, Dari, and Turkish having a major affect on Pakistan in the future, culturally and diplomatically.
I have heard many Afghans talk this way but never an Iranian.
Persianate Islamic world is currently in a mess due to sectarian differences and some strange alliances of Iran (like India.) I can only really see some unity between Pakistan, Afghanistan, and Tajikstan, who also share commonalities with Turks.
Don't feed the troll. Stay on topic.
I'm Chinese living in America. But I'm interested in the Persianate heritage and I am learning Farsi.
ممنون. هال من خوب است.As a fellow student, hale shoma chetore?
I have been teaching myself Dari and elevated Urdu for quite some time via poetry of Allama Iqbal, Rumi, and Hafez. I am more interested in the Sunni Islamic poetic traditions in Dari/Farsi.
I am also a life-long student of Islamic theology and jurisprudence. I am pretty good with Classical Arabic for this reason. Somewhere in there, I have also started to learn Turkish. I have many friends from Turkey, and would definitely like to visit and maybe stay for a while.
I had been discussing this topic with a brother I tagged in the last post, and we both came to the conclusion that Urdu is not going anywhere. Urdu will remain the language of the Pakistani homeland (including occupied Kashmir,) but I believe that Dari would help Pakistan greatly in Afghanistan and Tajikstan.
Actually a major problem we have in Afghanistan is that we have influence among Pukhtoons only, because Iran dominates the Dari speaking regions' culturally, even though most of them are Sunni Muslim. This has turned them into a breeding ground for anti-Pakistani sentiment.
Pakistan needs to work on this as Afghanistan and Tajikstan are so important for the future safety and security of our country.
But I know that modern Turkish is a heavily de-Islamized and turkified version of Turkish, not the one used by the Ottomans.
I think Afghanistan will in the end decide its own future independently of either Pakistan or Iran. Afghanistani are fed up with being played as a ball between other powers. I also believe that most people in the countries are fed up with their poverty and would like to put the economy first.
Historically this area was prosperous and culturally advanced. The British and the Russians broke it up. Now it's time for a regional re-integration.
I doubt if most Iranians care about the Dari. The dominant ideology in Iran is Shiite Revolutionary Islamism and Iranian nationalism. The Dari do not fit in either.
Yes, I know the history very well. It's nearly impossible to change fixed borders now. So the Durrand line will stay there. I think Pakistan should be working on stabilizing Afghanistan and making it a trade partner. Afghanistan relies on Pakistan for its export anyway, as Iran is not reliable.We still have many common words with Turkish in Urdu, and many of the same religious concepts due to Sufism.
This is not accurate, actually, but more like Kabulie view.
Many Afghans are in favor of merger with Pakistan, esp Pukhtoons who are the majority.
Historically Pakistan and Afghanistan were the same country. See for instance the Durrani empire map.
It is more like a spoiler in Afghanistan against Taliban, and to prevent full closure of the war in Afghanistan, but now Iranian influence is minimal, so I strongly believe that a long era of peace will begin, with Pakistan as its guarantor.
Traditionally Pakistanis spoke Dari also. Which is a more traditional and pure form of ancient Aryan languages. Farsi has alot more Arabic and French influence.
Otherwise wait for next 1971We should teach Python language (for Artificial intelligence) not Persian language
If Persian had been made the lingua franca, 1971 might not have had happened.We should teach Python language (for Artificial intelligence) not Persian language
Otherwise wait for next 1971
@peagle We were discussing this the other day.
I am very curious about whether you are actually Chinese and American.
I understand if you are Pakistani or Afghan, we have vested interests in the Dari language, but it seems a little strange coming from your background (if your flags are correct.)
I can definitely see Pukhto, Dari, and Turkish having a major affect on Pakistan in the future, culturally and diplomatically.
I have heard many Afghans talk this way but never an Iranian.
Persianate Islamic world is currently in a mess due to sectarian differences and some strange alliances of Iran (like India.) I can only really see some unity between Pakistan, Afghanistan, and Tajikstan, who also share commonalities with Turks.
Don't feed the troll. Stay on topic.
Sorry bro, I think you may have inferred that from out discussion, I hold no such belief.we both came to the conclusion that Urdu is not going anywhere