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Persian as a mandatory subject in schools?

No please. Keep your Persia in your pocket. We don't want to be a mysterious spiritual empire. Even in karabagh, Iran is looking for a way to capture azeri land nearby. I mean we don't need you and your languages. What Persians give to Pakistan? Kulbhushan yadav and zainabun brigade lol. We don't need more. All these things,even language, exert pressure and we don't want to be in somebody influence.
Put emphasis on sciences, maths, IT, about thinking etc instead of which language we should have taught.
If languages are so important, why not teach Punjabi, Sindhi, Baluchi, and all language spoken in Pakistan ? At least I would have been able to speak and understand all people in Pakistan ? :wave:
I completely agree. Today we lack better education. Look at Europe. Everyone wants to learn machine learning but here everyone wants to learn languages. I believe we need to learn basic English first because English is accepted worldwide. Please urge these people to learn new subjects otherwise we will be left behind.
 
If Persian had been made the lingua franca, 1971 might not have had happened.
First you need to have a nation, then you can talk about modernization and high-tech. A completely utilitarian view on this issue is misleading. Teaching Persian is NOT back looking, but to better understand yourselves.

I think you and most people still don't understand 1971, it is a simplistic narrative based on language issues, but that's a loads of bull crap.

Never in the history of the world has a country existed with two equal parts over a thousand miles away from each other, separated by a hostile neighbour, and it will never happen again, because it does not make sense.

The Pakistani leadership was happy to allow for the creation of a Bengal nation at the same time as Pakistan. It did not happen for two reasons, the congress was too influential, and Mountbatten had reduced the timeframe for independence from over a year to 10 weeks, there was no time for any planning or any sensible decisions, hence Pakistan gained independence with two almost equal sized wings separated by a 1000 mile hostile territory.

Bengali had already been given a higher status very early on, non of the other local ethnic languages were given a higher status. The Pakistani passport was in Urdu, English and Bengali, stamps also had writings in Bengali as did the currency. So, accommodations were made. a decision had already been made that Decca was to be made a second national capital. the present parliament building of Bangladesh was approved designed and started construction before 1971 as part of the plan for a second capital.

Sooner or later we had to go our separate ways, it was going to happen, it would have been better if it was peaceful. Urdu already incorporates heritage from various languages, and Pakistani people have happily accepted Urdu as their own, there is no room for another. Pakistan is far far larger then any of the Persian or Turkic speaking countries, it makes no sense for Pakistan to make the effort and change its entire set up for sake of bunch of no bodies, they are my brothers and I do love them, but when we are making a critical evaluation then Pakistan is far far bigger and that matters.

Chinese language is not the same as it was before, it was modernised, French used to be the official language of England, Latin was spoken widely throughout Europe, Arabic was not the main language of North Africa, things change, that is reality, so get our it. You make policies based on present realities and the acceptability to the people on whom those policies will have an effect. Any forced changes to the present realties is inviting trouble, borders or cultures. greater access to certain things such a access to language learning is good, but anything more, especially when a majority is asked to adopt to a minorities way of being is simply ridiculous.
Totally agree with that. But how many Pakistanis speak proper Urdu instead of an ad hoc Urdu-English mix?

The PPP doesn't even write the name of the party in Urdu. I was very surprised when I saw the PPP call itself پاکستان پیپلز پارطی. This is weird, not in a good sense.

For Urdu to thrive, it needs to elevate itself first. People need to use elevated Urdu with vocabulary drawn from its classical literature, not English.

It is called evolution, no language in the world is the same throughout, every language changes and adopts with time. If you ignore that fact and set aside Urdu for special criticism, then you are being dishonest and unfair.

Adoption, does not meaning ignoring your identity, Turkish have been changed totally and yet their self of being Turkish has not change a single inch. Chinese was change to a modern Chinese version with less characters, has that changed Chinese identity, and now Chinese are dying to learn English, even though it is a vast country with a vast economy, there is nothing wrong with that, it is part of globalisation, it is a process in play throughout the world.

But it is unfair to single out Urdu for such criticism, when this process is in play everywhere.
 
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Put emphasis on sciences, maths, IT, about thinking etc instead of which language we should have taught.
If languages are so important, why not teach Punjabi, Sindhi, Baluchi, and all language spoken in Pakistan ? At least I would have been able to speak and understand all people in Pakistan ? :wave:
100% agree
 
I think you and most people still don't understand 1971, it is a simplistic narrative based on language issues, but that's a loads of bull crap.

Never in the history of the world has a country existed with two equal parts over a thousand miles away from each other, separated by a hostile neighbour, and it will never happen again, because it does not make sense.

The Pakistani leadership was happy to allow for the creation of a Bengal nation at the same time as Pakistan. It did not happen for two reasons, the congress was too influential, and Mountbatten had reduced the timeframe for independence from over a year to 10 weeks, there was no time for any planning or any sensible decisions, hence Pakistan gained independence with two almost equal sized wings separated by a 1000 mile hostile territory.

Bengali had already been given a higher status very early on, non of the other local ethnic languages were given a higher status. The Pakistani passport was in Urdu, English and Bengali, stamps also had writings in Bengali as did the currency. So, accommodations were made. a decision had already been made that Decca was to be made a second national capital. the present parliament building of Bangladesh was approved designed and started construction before 1971 as part of the plan for a second capital.

Sooner or later we had to go our separate ways, it was going to happen, it would have been better if it was peaceful. Urdu already incorporates heritage from various languages, and Pakistani people have happily accepted Urdu as their own, there is no room for another. Pakistan is far far larger then any of the Persian or Turkic speaking countries, it makes no sense for Pakistan to make the effort and change its entire set up for sake of bunch of no bodies, they are my brothers and I do love them, but when we are making a critical evaluation then Pakistan is far far bigger and that matters.

Chinese language is not the same as it was before, it was modernised, French used to be the official language of England, Latin was spoken widely throughout Europe, Arabic was not the main language of North Africa, things change, that is reality, so get our it. You make policies based on present realities and the acceptability to the people on whom those policies will have an effect. Any forced changes to the present realties is inviting trouble, borders or cultures. greater access to certain things such a access to language learning is good, but anything more, especially when a majority is asked to adopt to a minorities way of being is simply ridiculous.


It is called evolution, no language in the world is the same throughout, every language changes and adopts with time. If you ignore that fact and set aside Urdu for special criticism, then you are being dishonest and unfair.

Adoption, does not meaning ignoring your identity, Turkish have been changed totally and yet their self of being Turkish has not change a single inch. Chinese was change to a modern Chinese version with less characters, has that changed Chinese identity, and now Chinese are dying to learn English, even though it is a vast country with a vast economy, there is nothing wrong with that, it is part of globalisation, it is a process in play throughout the world.

But it is unfair to single out Urdu for such criticism, when this process is in play everywhere.
Let's take Chinese as an example. All Chinese students are required to learn at least some classical Chinese. Japanese student (classical Chinese was also used in Japan as a classical language, kind of like Persian vs Urdu; or Latin vs English) also learn classical Chinese in high school.

I am very curious what Pakistani students learn in Urdu classes. Do they read any classical Urdu literature? Or they just treat Urdu as a foreign language as opposed to their mother tongue? I notice that not many educated Pakistanis speak proper Urdu. It's fine to have some English loanwords, but it's detrimental to the language itself to include English words directly whenever the speaker does not know the Urdu word for it. At least in China/Japan, we don't use English words for 'party, congress, people, university, train, medicine'. But these words are used a lot by Pakistani Urdu speakers. Don't tell me that there are no equivalent words in the Persian/Urdu heritage.

It's impossible to make all 220 million people fluent in English. And it's a fact. No education program will be able to achieve this. Neither in China, nor in Japan do most people speak English at any level beyond holding a very basic conversation. For Urdu to become a true lingua franca, it needs a literature tradition which it has but it seems not to be taught properly. To properly learn Urdu literature, one has to know SOME Persian.

Learning your heritage has nothing to do against modernization or science. Many countries in the world are excellent in both.
 
The Persian language is central to South Asia's Muslim heritage. Pakistan was built to be a nation-state of South Asian Muslims. So why is Persian not taught in Pakistani schools? It should be treated as a classical heritage language. One can not fully appreciate Urdu literature without studying Persian literature.

If Pakistan should seek its national identity, it should be a South Asian Persianate one. In fact, many non-Muslims (Hindus, Sikhs, Christians) participated in the South Asian Persianate cultural milieu. Pakistan should revive this pan-religious cultural heritage, which is lost in India and Bangladesh.

The Persianate heritage is deeply tolerant regarding religions. Some of the best South Asian poets wrote in Persian. Allama Iqbal wrote mostly in Persian; The poems carved on the walls of Taj Mahal are in Persian; It's sad that these cultural achievements are not appreciated by today's South Asians. India and Bangladesh decide to abandon it. Pakistan should pick it up. It's a distinctive South Asian cultural identity that is historically linked to Muslims. By embracing it Pakistan can distinguish itself from India and Bangladesh, yet not forget its own South Asian, rather than Arab or Turkic identity.

Persian shouldn't be a difficult language to learn to read if one knows Urdu. Pakistani students should learn it the same way as Westerners learn Latin: to have some reading capabilities to get access to its culture heritage.

No. As a nation we are stuck in reserve gear. Heritage, culture, identity - its all navel gazing when we should be busy innovating, working, creating, selling etc. I don't know what the education structure is like in Pakistan, but in the UK we get to choose certain subjects - like foreign languages. If people want to learn Persian, offer it in schools as a subject they can choose, but our focus should be on Maths, Science, IT, Urdu and English.

Above and beyond that, we should have civics which out to be a mix of Pakistaniyat and Islamiyat. The humanities and arts should be taught upto age 14, but after that age the focus should be on skills which will allow people to have careers. Vocational training should be introduced between 14-18 for non academic students.
 
Yes, I know the history very well. It's nearly impossible to change fixed borders now. So the Durrand line will stay there. I think Pakistan should be working on stabilizing Afghanistan and making it a trade partner. Afghanistan relies on Pakistan for its export anyway, as Iran is not reliable.

We are working towards all things, don't worry. I want to make it clear that this is my personal belief, and not state policy.

If anything, many Afghans want to enjoy benefits of a stable and modern state like Pakistan.

It will be a process and not happen overnight.

If Persian had been made the lingua franca, 1971 might not have had happened.
First you need to have a nation, then you can talk about modernization and high-tech. A completely utilitarian view on this issue is misleading. Teaching Persian is NOT back looking, but to better understand yourselves.

This is simply false and @peagle answered it quite well above.

I am very curious what Pakistani students learn in Urdu classes. Do they read any classical Urdu literature?

So you have not researched this subject before posting this thread?

Urdu literature is versatile, it includes classical literature, novels, poetry, biographies, Islamic literature, and other subjects.

Most modern subjects like STEM are taught in English and from English textbooks.

For Urdu to become a true lingua franca, it needs a literature tradition which it has but it seems not to be taught properly.

The Pakistani nation will decide what is the best for it.

Or they just treat Urdu as a foreign language as opposed to their mother tongue?

Urdu is the national language of Pakistan, everyone writes in it. We speak it to communicate between people of different provinces.

notice that not many educated Pakistanis speak proper Urdu.

This is another false assertion.

To properly learn Urdu literature, one has to know SOME Persian.

Some words which are in common with Farsi and Dari, yes.
 
I don't know what the education structure is like in Pakistan, but in the UK we get to choose certain subjects - like foreign languages. If people want to learn Persian, offer it in schools as a subject they can choose, but our focus should be on Maths, Science, IT, Urdu and English.

Aside from Urdu and English, here are some things I would like to see.

Basic Arabic should be compulsory to understand the Quran.

Dari, Turkish, Arabic, Chinese offered as optional subjects.

Promotion of Allama Iqbal, Rumi, etc. Persian literature.

Focus should be on STEM, I agree.
 
Too late.

Language options in schools (through 9/10th grade) should be:

Urdu, English, mother tongue (Punjabi, Pashto, Sindhi, Balochi etc).
pakistanis should use persian , turki arab language as pakistanis are persian . turki arab people .
Oh bhai, it's too late for all this.

Like I said in my previous post - Urdu, English, mother tongue.

Any other languages can be promoted by the government (funding for grants or assistance in setting up departments in local colleges and universities) as electives.
Basic Arabic should be compulsory to understand the Quran.
I don't see where we have room to squeeze Arabic in, given English, Urdu and mother tongues should be given priority.
 
I sense you are well meaning but confused, in your thinking and the construct of your argument, forgive me if my reply ends up being a bit longer then I plan.

Let's take Chinese as an example. All Chinese students are required to learn at least some classical Chinese. Japanese student (classical Chinese was also used in Japan as a classical language, kind of like Persian vs Urdu; or Latin vs English) also learn classical Chinese in high school.
Right, but when you make comparisons, that cannot stand alone, if required other aspects of influence come into play.
Chinese and Japanese are two completely different languages, when compared with Urdu and English, Urdu and English are part of the Indo-European linguistic group, so the borrowing of words is a lot more natural then would be the case in the other to languages. Still English word use is common among Chinese and Japanese, and the western cultural influence on the Japanese culture is a lot more then the linguistic influence, it is external influence so relevant to your argument. I fear you are still being picky in creating your argument.

Plus, Urdu, being a cauldron of different languages, it is inherently designed to observe outside influence, as required. You need to keep in mind that Urdu does not have a single heritage source point, its heritage derived from different language and none of those languages is dominate by itself. Sanskrit, Khariboli, Hindustani, Persian, Turkish, Dari, Arabic and few other smaller influences, all these combined to make the Urdu we have today. There is no classical linguistic reference point to create classical knowledge base as per your argument, it has evolved through time, that is the beauty of Urdu, and that is why it will survive.

No one learns Latin in Europe anymore, except perhaps exclusive private schools, certainly not in the UK, I am aware vast majority of the Chinese do not know classical Chinese, but in there case at least there is a direct link to a single classical language, which does not exist in the case of Urdu.
So this argument of yours has no basis.

I am very curious what Pakistani students learn in Urdu classes. Do they read any classical Urdu literature? Or they just treat Urdu as a foreign language as opposed to their mother tongue? I notice that not many educated Pakistanis speak proper Urdu. It's fine to have some English loanwords, but it's detrimental to the language itself to include English words directly whenever the speaker does not know the Urdu word for it. At least in China/Japan, we don't use English words for 'party, congress, people, university, train, medicine'. But these words are used a lot by Pakistani Urdu speakers. Don't tell me that there are no equivalent words in the Persian/Urdu heritage.
Again, you are picking and choosing, are you telling me you do not use English words at all in Chinese or Japanese, or not certain words, that's being picky and small. It matters not which words are borrowed, it is the choice of the grouping which words they chose to borrow for their language, you have no say on the matter. Unless you say that Chinese is 100% pure Chinese, then you can make an argument, otherwise it is being picky and rude. because it is unfair criticism.

You fail to understand that Urdu has gained status of being a second mother tongue in Pakistani society, there is deep emotional attachment to Urdu, whilst, also being proud of ones original mother tongue. Everyone learns Urdu from the first day of school till the last day. Each province is free to teach and propagate any local language they wish, it is their right, but Urdu has gained primacy, it has happened naturally without enforcement, encouragement yes, but not enforcement.

All major media outlets are in Urdu because that's what the market demands, there were few English ones, but they closed because the market, the people did not watch them, and there are no major stations with regional languages, because there is no demand, people are happy with the presence of Urdu. It is better to understand the ground realities then construct imagined arguments.
Regional language production houses do exit but it is a very small market, because, people are happy with the use of Urdu.

The only important point you hint towards is the classical Urdu literature, that is lacking, and that I agree is shameful, but there again it is only lacking at lower levels, soon as you reach college and university, it has strong presence, but I do think it should be started earlier.
The rest of your points are totally irrelevant, because you are creating an argument in your head by ignoring the realities on the ground, either you are unaware, or blinded.

It's impossible to make all 220 million people fluent in English. And it's a fact. No education program will be able to achieve this. Neither in China, nor in Japan do most people speak English at any level beyond holding a very basic conversation. For Urdu to become a true lingua franca, it needs a literature tradition which it has but it seems not to be taught properly. To properly learn Urdu literature, one has to know SOME Persian.
Again, when did I or anyone demand to make 230 million fluent in English? You are constructing imagine arguments.
Urdu already is the lingua franca and a second mother tongue of Pakistan, it is entrenched, as I have explained above. Urdu has Persian words, does not mean one needs to learn Persian to know Urdu, as explained above Urdu has a rich heritage from various source languages, and Urdu literature stands alone from other languages, exposure to Persian, Turkish or Arabic is good, but it will not add anything to the Pakistani society, other then the literary classes, and they are already aware, I can assure you, they are.

Learning your heritage has nothing to do against modernization or science. Many countries in the world are excellent in both.
There you go, again, making wild assumptions. No-one made that claim so why are you constructing such an argument. Just because the people you speak with, use lot of English words, does not mean their identity with the Urdu language is any less.
Take me as an example, I think in English, but I feel in Urdu, I do math in Urdu, and feel a sense of peace in my heart every time I hear Urdu, a feeling non-Urdu speaker could never understand. All this, whilst I live in England, raised in England, although born in Pakistan. Urdu is not my first mother tongue.

Do not presume to know another's identity, especially without relevant arguments, and especially by ignoring the realities on the ground.
 
Only Pashto can be called a language out of the 4.
Not really. Each of them has its own literature tradition. Some of them (such as Punjabi) have an extensive non-Islamic literature, along side with the Islamic tradition.
 
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