Panama Case - Post Verdict Discussion and Updates

[PakSword]

Judiciary and Army both won’t have any solo flight as it’s tumultuous so it’s better to have more passengers (others on board as well).

Now my fourth question..

In your opinion, which is the major controlling entity of the establishment? Is it Army in your opinion?

 

[Farah Sohail]

I earnestly wish Lt Gen Aamer Riaz was COAS at this time; had he been; things would have been way different than what they are now!

Anyone...else other than Bajwa would have been a better choice.. We are just soo unfortunate tht we have Bajwa as our COAS, at this critical juncture...of our history...

Also..... What do u think is the future of NAB references against sharif family? Do u see...NAB refernces reaching their logical conclusion? D u think..these cases will proceed?.. But for tht to happen..monitoring judge's role will hvae to be most crucial..you yesterday said tht J Ijaz ul Ahsan will play the role of monitoring judge..and not accountability judge..what do u think..what is the scope of monitoring? What do u think monitoring judge can do? When u say he will play role of monitoring judge only and nothing else and yet u say...he will do the right thing and will be fierce in monitoring... I get confused... I really want to understand.. What comes in its scope? Like any example? What do u think J ijaz ul Ahsan can do as monitoring judge? Can he check /vounter any open illegalities occuring during the process/trials? @Realistic Change

 

[Realistic Change]

Now my fourth question..

In your opinion, which is the major controlling entity of the establishment? Is it Army in your opinion?

It's funny that you ask this question now; earlier today, I had dinner at our place (hence my enhanced activity on politics after the get together) wherein the respected chief architect of NSC (National Security Council) original proposal was present - Army does have substantial say amongst other players in the Establishment like any other country which has military might; we are made to believe that it's just democratically elected President in US who call the shots; it's not - Pakistan is no exception.

There has to be a method to all this power balancing act in countries which have strong military, we can't be Switzerland or Japan or Germany (Economically) until some other country like US or China takes full responsibility of protection of our geographical boundaries.

There is not a single country with similar geo strategic challenges like Pakistan; it's at the epicentre of multiple flashpoint; so Armed forces will remain a major player in the power troika be it NS, AAZ, or IK; they have to learn how to co-exist and leverage upon each other's strengths to take country forward.

Short answer to your question; Yes; but only at macro level not micro level.

To further simplify my answer: They might be part of policy formulation; but operational process, systems and procedure is Govt's domain.

 

[gangsta_rap]

Does the establishment even exist? Musharraf a sitting dictator had to deal with an NRO and give in to the demands of the civilian leadership

Doesn't that throw the idea of an all powerful establishment supposedly controlling every single aspect of the country right out of the window?

 

[PakSword]

It's funny that you ask this question now; earlier today, I had dinner at our place (hence my enhanced activity on politics after the get together) wherein the respected chief architect of NSC (National Security Council) original proposal was present - Army does have substantial say amongst other players in the Establishment like any other country which has military might; we are made to believe that it's just democratically elected President in US who calls the shots; it's not - Pakistan is no exception.

There has to be a method to all this power balancing act in countries which have strong military, we can't be Switzerland or Japan or Germany (Economically) until some other country like US or China takes full responsibility of protection of our geographical boundaries.

There is not a single country with similar geo strategic challenges like Pakistan; it's at the epicentre of multiple flashpoint; so Armed forces will remain a major player in the power troika be it NS, AAZ, or IK; they have to learn how to co-exist and leverage upon each other's strengths to take country forward.

Short answer to your question; Yes; but only at macro level not micro level.

You know.. you are great! You explain the things so nicely...

Thanks very much..

 

[Realistic Change]

Anyone...else other than Bajwa would have been a better choice.. We are just soo unfortunate tht we have Bajwa as our COAS, at this critical juncture...of our history...

Also..... What do u think is the future of NAB references against sharif family? Do u see...NAB refernces reaching their logical conclusion? D u think..these cases will proceed?.. But for tht to happen..monitoring judge's role will hvae to be most crucial..you yesterday said tht J Ijaz ul Ahsan will play the role of monitoring judge..and not accountability judge..what do u think..what is the scope of monitoring? What do u think monitoring judge can do? When u say he will play role of monitoring judge only and nothing else and yet u say...he will do the right thing and will be fierce in monitoring... I get confused... I really want to understand.. What comes in its scope? Like any example? What do u think J ijaz ul Ahsan can do as monitoring judge? Can he check /vounter any open illegalities occuring during the process/trials? @Realistic Change

Let's look at this situation that you have Exams which are spread out over the period of six months (180 days); and your examiner comes to you after 14th day and starts marking your paper on 14th day; would you want that, or would you want to attempt at least 50% if not 100% of paper before getting marked.

I still believe there is a lot happening; as I stated earlier; requests were made to UAE, Saudi, and UK and green signal were given by two of the three countries for cooperation (UAE and UK). Best yardstick to measure whats happening in courts is the reaction of certain people in PMLN. If you measure and analyze their reactions; and potential fallout of those actions and reactions then you'll get an idea where it's heading.

Waisey what type of monitoring were you expecting; Justice Khosa and others said millions of times assuring Kh Haaris that it will be not directional but observatory. That means that it’s done as agreed by the five member bench.

Secondly, monitoring is not; lagao charge and littar lagao Sharifon ko; it’s more like; update on already initiated inquiries (21 to be precise) by JIT - so what will Accountability Court’s Judge say? Obviously he has to report that - response received; something like this.......”directed NAB to send officers for doc collection, and they are flying out on 15th of Oct, will share/present their findings on Friday of week after they return.”

Off shoot inquiries can be potentially compromised but original inquiries and investigations initiated by JIT are quite damaging in itself.

I deliberately abstain from discussing this topic as there is complex politics involved and I don’t want to comment which in any way can be of benefit to PMLN - so in that situation I abstain for a reason as this forum is accessed/referenced by people who most of us can’t even imagine

 

[Arsalan]

So @PakSword my dear brother, you do see some hope now?
Please remember that as far as i can see, the whole process will still need an one and a half year or more while the first targets (NS and Co) will be achieved in 8-10 months.

I was discussing the subject with a group of ex-army men this week. Strong ties with establishment. The gossip going around is that NS and Co. are not being checked at every anti-Pakistan move they are trying to make and these are being neutralized. Now if you and all others take a moment and see the activities and statements from NS and Co. for last 4 weeks or so and compare the amount of damage those statements SHOULD have done to what they actually have done, you will see that it is true indeed that they are being countered effectively but quietly.

Will like you views on all this. (just to see ka bahi ab paka hua ha ayaa abhi ni )

 

[PakSword]

So @PakSword my dear brother, you do see some hope now?
Please remember that as far as i can see, the whole process will still need an one and a half year or more while the first targets (NS and Co) will be achieved in 8-10 months.

I was discussing the subject with a group of ex-army men this week. Strong ties with establishment. The gossip going around is that NS and Co. are not being checked at every anti-Pakistan move they are trying to make and these are being neutralized. Now if you and all others take a moment and see the activities and statements from NS and Co. for last 4 weeks or so and compare the amount of damage those statements SHOULD have done to what they actually have done, you will see that it is true indeed that they are being countered effectively but quietly.

Will like you views on all this. (just to see ka bahi ab paka hua ha ayaa abhi ni )

Bro, my disappointment was on something else.. It was about NS is being deliberately allowed to leave... along with his family.... My disappointment was on weak judgement.. my disappointment was on lack of judicial activism for Shareefs

But I realized quite early that it is almost impossible for us to see shareef family behind bars.. so I prepared my mind to settle on the next available option to the best one.. which is being played right now.. Only NS can change the situation by creating more chaos and then there will be no option other then putting him in jail, or even sending him to gallows.. His nature tells us that he chickens out at the last moment.. So he will try his best, but in the end, he will simply leave..

Right now, it is the game of survival being played.. survival of Pakistan as they put it when they discuss topics.. related to politics.. and it is a much bigger game about which people like myself has no idea how and what will happen in the next two years.. Shareef family is much smaller a problem right now..

Anyway, my shift of stances on this whole situation was taken badly, sometimes by you when I was disappointed, sometimes by others when I supported the lack of action in the bigger interest of Pakistan..

I was in limbo (and I am still in limbo) as to what is better for Pakistan.. Shareef family leaving or Shareef family in Jail. Still you may find me frustrated on why he is allowed to leave.. you may find me accepting the fact that this is the best option, if not the only option.. as a lot of factors are into play.. Economy.. Defense... India.. Afghanistan.. US.. Middle East etc etc..

OR YOU MAY ALSO NOT SEE ME ANYMORE.. as I lost my interest in this case long time back.. Now I only discuss Tomatoes with @El Sidd and @Shane

 

[Arsalan]

Bro, my disappointment was on something else.. It was about NS is being deliberately allowed to leave... along with his family.... My disappointment was on weak judgement.. my disappointment was on lack of judicial activism for Shareefs

But I realized quite early that it is almost impossible for us to see shareef family behind bars.. so I prepared my mind to settle on the next available option to the best one.. which is being played right now.. Only NS can change the situation by creating more chaos and then there will be no option other then putting him in jail, or even sending him to gallows.. His nature tells us that he chickens out at the last moment.. So he will try his best, but in the end, he will simply leave..[/USER]

Wasay aik baat kahon? I am quite sure he will do exactly that.

It will take a few more months but the track he is on, he wont only be "leaving the country". All talks of NRO and settlement or compromise etc are more based on emotional judgements of us all. If you keenly study the recent developments, the direction the wind is blowing things will get even worst for NS and Co. in 8-10 months. Let see (this is purely speculation based on how i see things developing).

As for the weak judgement part, it is good that you have realized this and this is what we have all been talking about in the past as well bro. System that have been corrupted for 70 years was never going to restore to the perfect ideal situation over the course of a few months sir. What have been destroyed and where the corrupt have been installed to protect the loot and plunder of the elites was never going to be rebuild with conviction and dedication of a few right ones. IK took 15-20 years to reach a level where he can exert a meaningful force. It will take more time to translate that force into something tangible in form of perfectly running institutions. PTI did achieved a lot in KPK in 5 years but A LOT still remains meaning that even 5 years of gov. was not enough to put everything back on track (and how could they be when these things were put off-track through systematic corruption of 60-70 years). The judgement was not weak as far as i can see, it was cautious. Given out so that it will serve its purpose and still do not stick out as a sore thumb in this system established and run by corrupts to hit on it every single day. We see now how NS and Co. are on all out war against judiciary now but fail to get traction that thye hoped for (or should have gotten given the track record of us Pakistani people). Reason being the judgement was well crafted and balanced. This is how i view it.

Right now, it is the game of survival being played.. survival of Pakistan as they put it when they discuss topics.. related to politics.. and it is a much bigger game about which people like myself has no idea how and what will happen in the next two years.. Shareef family is much smaller a problem right now..

Again brother, the negativity is mostly being spread purposely. NS is NOT PAKISTAN. PAkistan survived when Quaid-e-Azam died. There are groups now who are trying to make it look like Pakistan's survival is at stake if NS is touched. We know better than that. What we should be working on now is to make our masses understand that Pakistan's survival depends on NS, on NS being KICKED IN THE A$$ not on his being untouched!

Anyway, my shift of stances on this whole situation was taken badly, sometimes by you when I was disappointed, sometimes by others when I supported the lack of action in the bigger interest of Pakistan..

NEVER! It was NEVER taken badly by ME at least. To me it was a case of a group of us people worried about Pakistan's future and supporting and giving confidence and hope to each other when one felt down. Moving forward as a team. Sorry if you felt that i was taking your messages as even being negative. That was all a natural process and my intentions always have been to move forward together, supporting and encouraging each other. That is how groups progress and how they come out of troubled times. At no point your views or that of @Farah Sohail or ANYONE ELSE were taken as being negative. ) but It was your concern that you were all showing just like i do mine and the objective of those debates was to keep the moral up and hopes high as to me that still is a force that matters. AND i know that i annoyed you guys with such messages over and over again, (mazak urwanay ke had tk ) but still, had to do what i believed was right.

I was in limbo (and I am still in limbo) as to what is better for Pakistan.. Shareef family leaving or Shareef family in Jail. Still you may find me frustrated on why he is allowed to leave.. you may find me accepting the fact that this is the best option, if not the only option.. as a lot of factors are into play.. Economy.. Defense... India.. Afghanistan.. US.. Middle East etc etc..

You wont be the first one to be frustrated on this sir, you wont be the last. All i want is that when i am pi$$ed on any such development there is someone from you who can come and tell me that there are bigger things that NS that need our energy and how we can move forward. NS will get what is written in his fate. He have dug a hole so deep, eventually he is going to take the fall.

OR YOU MAY ALSO NOT SEE ME ANYMORE.. as I lost my interest in this case long time back..

Not an option mate!

Edit: Oh and tomatoes!!
You may be surprised but this perhaps was one of the more sensible and appreciable moves by this government that have made tomato prices go up so high.
Will be down by third week-fourth week of November. I personally appreciate the gov. for their actions in this matter even though it resulted in the prices going crazy. Can share the details as discussed with Directory AARI this Sunday

 

[El Sidd]

Shane said: ↑
One thing is for sure now. Sharifs are not coming back any time soon as they most likely won't decide on chopping their legs off at this point.

Their cases will not go ahead in absentia as the SC has said in some verdict that it is unconstitutional to prosecute in absentia.

This means that cases have, after all, ended up in a DARK ALLEY as the judges wrote in Panama decision that they won't let that happen, yet this is exactly what is happening.

The million dollar question is:

WHAT HAVE THE JUDGES TO SAY IN RESPONSE TO THE CURRENT SCENARIO WHERE THE CASES LITERALLY STAND RIGHT IN THE CENTRE OF THEIR OWN DREADED DARK ALLEY?

JUDICIAL DIS-FUNCTIONALISM ???
The very basis of our state of affairs.

@El Sidd @Realistic Change @Arsalan @The Accountant @Farah Sohail @Verve @Guvera@El_Swordsmen @Hyprion Please tell me if I am wrong. Please tell me that there is some other way.


Post of Sep 20th - basically in response to respected member @Shane - I think, situation of Nawaz has worsened from that point as evident from first change in declaration to seek "blessings" of three western Govt's by Zahid Hamid, Pervez Rashid, Maryam Aurangzeb, and Asim Kirmani - Status: Backfired!

Antidote to above backfire: Go ultra Bralevi appeasement and fire on minorities to again appease two Govt's by MNA on Wazeefa - Status: Backfired!

Antidote to above backfire: Go ultra Deobandi appeasement and discredit above howling of MNA on Mahana Wazeefa - Status: Total Confusion re which stance to stick for optics as well politics



This strategy of creating economic chaos is still on; as it was always part; as Dar-Economics is based on his own strategy for House of Sharif's - Obtain Loans to Service Loans and then come into power and get it written off; the issue is Dar did not know that he was only dreaming when he was Chief of IMF - he can't write off in real life; but in khawab (dreams) he may write off Pakistan's debt.

Bold in red Above of Sep 20th and Bold in red below post of Oct 1st: Dissolution is perhaps the least desired option for PMLN; but also the most feasible with each passing day. I know they will try to hold till March 2018 and almost all of the members on this forum never thought that PMLN can think of dissolving assemblies before senate elections - but in this game; Zardari and Imran will be together with the same POV; plus more PMLN tries to expedite law making to protect Nawaz; it will put both; Judiciary and Army in anti PMLN camp; one of the bills; will be striked down which will do this:

I think there is a bigger fish to fry here and thus why SC is waiting for the right moment apparently. Constitution will probably go to a suspended state before the caretaker setup is in place.
Do not ask me how i am seeing this happening but probably will happen like that.

@PakSword

timaatar mehnge hain aaj bhi....government fail hochuki hai awaam ko roti kapra makaan dene

 

[Guvera]

Yeh sari pyari pyari batein jo aap sab ne ki woh tu sab theek hai lekin mera sawal yeh hai ke akhir Monitoring Judge monitoring kab karengay, akhir justice ijaz ul hasan kia kar rahay hain

 

[El Sidd]

Yeh sari pyari pyari batein jo aap sab ne ki woh tu sab theek hai lekin mera sawal yeh hai ke akhir Monitoring Judge monitoring kab karengay, akhir justice ijaz ul hasan kia kar rahay hain

ho to rahi hai monitoring............... school me ganday bache ko monitor bana dete hai yaha bhi kuch ese hi horaha hai

 

[Shane]

Shane said: ↑
One thing is for sure now. Sharifs are not coming back any time soon as they most likely won't decide on chopping their legs off at this point.

Their cases will not go ahead in absentia as the SC has said in some verdict that it is unconstitutional to prosecute in absentia.

This means that cases have, after all, ended up in a DARK ALLEY as the judges wrote in Panama decision that they won't let that happen, yet this is exactly what is happening.

The million dollar question is:

WHAT HAVE THE JUDGES TO SAY IN RESPONSE TO THE CURRENT SCENARIO WHERE THE CASES LITERALLY STAND RIGHT IN THE CENTRE OF THEIR OWN DREADED DARK ALLEY?

JUDICIAL DIS-FUNCTIONALISM ???
The very basis of our state of affairs.

@El Sidd @Realistic Change @Arsalan @The Accountant @Farah Sohail @Verve @Guvera@El_Swordsmen @Hyprion Please tell me if I am wrong. Please tell me that there is some other way.


Post of Sep 20th - basically in response to respected member @Shane - I think, situation of Nawaz has worsened from that point as evident from first change in declaration to seek "blessings" of three western Govt's by Zahid Hamid, Pervez Rashid, Maryam Aurangzeb, and Asim Kirmani - Status: Backfired!

Antidote to above backfire: Go ultra Bralevi appeasement and fire on minorities to again appease two Govt's by MNA on Wazeefa - Status: Backfired!

Antidote to above backfire: Go ultra Deobandi appeasement and discredit above howling of MNA on Mahana Wazeefa - Status: Total Confusion re which stance to stick for optics as well politics



This strategy of creating economic chaos is still on; as it was always part; as Dar-Economics is based on his own strategy for House of Sharif's - Obtain Loans to Service Loans and then come into power and get it written off; the issue is Dar did not know that he was only dreaming when he was Chief of IMF - he can't write off in real life; but in khawab (dreams) he may write off Pakistan's debt.

Bold in red Above of Sep 20th and Bold in red below post of Oct 1st: Dissolution is perhaps the least desired option for PMLN; but also the most feasible with each passing day. I know they will try to hold till March 2018 and almost all of the members on this forum never thought that PMLN can think of dissolving assemblies before senate elections - but in this game; Zardari and Imran will be together with the same POV; plus more PMLN tries to expedite law making to protect Nawaz; it will put both; Judiciary and Army in anti PMLN camp; one of the bills; will be striked down which will do this:

Nicely summed up. However, the fate of references and cases remain in limbo, fuelling the fear that the tubbar might make a comeback in five or ten years time. They have the financial powers if left unchecked.

Their assets must be pursued and confiscated or the chance and fear of a financed dirty coup shall always hang like a sword over head.

 

[PakSword]

Yeh sari pyari pyari batein jo aap sab ne ki woh tu sab theek hai lekin mera sawal yeh hai ke akhir Monitoring Judge monitoring kab karengay, akhir justice ijaz ul hasan kia kar rahay hain

Dua karo NS ko koi yeh batadey ke woh Pakistan main rahega tou 12 crore awam sarkon pe hogi aur woh yeh jang Jeet jaega.. phir aap sab ko harkat main dekhain ge sirf monitoring judge ko nahi.

 

[Arsalan]

Dua karo NS ko koi yeh batadey ke woh Pakistan main rahega tou 12 crore awam sarkon pe hogi aur woh yeh jang Jeet jaega.. phir aap sab ko harkat main dekhain ge sirf monitoring judge ko nahi.

Maryam Bibi haa na aesai baatain btanay ka lea papa ko!
Pahly koi kasar chori ha us naay jo ab maaf kr dy ge?