Panama Case - Post Verdict Discussion and Updates

[Shane]

Political landscape is getting clearer; and Establishment (haha - as per my definition) is at its last level of its patience.

Your def suits perfectly. I say so in historic perspective and deductions only and admittedly without any info that your definition includes confidants, associates and advisors, in essence the tools, of the actual or core. That's why I think everyone takes notice when silence is declared a message.

But that is besides the point of discussion. Your information is as always spot on regarding baji kay mian's outburst re Qadri. Where does it leave the Nisar group standing if the outbursts continue.

 

[Realistic Change]

So we should forget all hopes for justice in this case once and for all? For certain quarters...him staying aaay is more attractive..than behind bars... So...it wont be true justice.. Everyone is looking for its own interest...ke unhein kia suit karta hai?

You are talking from political point of view.. What abt..on the legal front? What What abt due process of law and justice? If he cant be behind bars..if it has already been decided by certain quarters.....then it means..fate of NAB references against him is pre decided?

If u dont call this NRO..then what else is it? Fate of NAB references is already decided..he woould be allowed to stay away...no progress of cases against him..maybe this is the reason..no monitoring is being done by Justice Ijaz ul Ahsan..

What abt judiciary? Judiciary is part of this plan too, then? @Realistic Change

Things are falling into place themselves; in politics the defeat is not physical defeat. It always means checkmate on the board of politics.

Please don’t infer from my post that it’s a pre-plan, it’s not - as far as I know!

Judiciary and Army both won’t have any solo flight as it’s tumultuous so it’s better to have more passengers (others on board as well).

Your def suits perfectly. I say so in historic perspective and deductions only and admittedly without any info that your definition includes confidants, associates and advisors, in essence the tools, of the actual or core. That's why I think everyone takes notice when silence is declared a message.

But that is besides the point of discussion. Your information is as always spot on regarding baji kay mian's outburst re Qadri. Where does it leave the Nisar group standing if the outbursts continue.

Nisar is/will be a figurehead - as of now there is no group lead by him; groups assemble themselves and at that point select their leader based on various factors. It could be Lt Gen Abdul Qadir Baloch or even Sardar Amjad Farooq Khan Khosa etc etc.,

Issue with certain politicians (65 I have the list of) of whose 37 were leaked by IB that they have to remain in power - be at provincial or federal level. Their interest is to remain in power - they don’t come at the forefront but always have to rule for various issues which are non negotiable for their survival at local level.

This is the type of group which chooses its leader and flies to the cuckoos nest and sleep peacefully there.

 

[Shane]

Issue with certain politicians (65 I have the list of) of whose 37 were leaked by IB that they have to remain in power - be at provincial or federal level. Their interest is to remain in power - they don’t come at the forefront but always have to rule for various issues which are non negotiable for their survival at local level.

This is the type of group which chooses its leader and flies to the cuckoos nest and sleep peacefully there

This is why it gets frustrating that this was to be done after DQ, it should have been done at that time and we would have been spared the turmoil and chaos since the verdict.

The clocks of NAB officials should have been winded up to arrest the Tabbar and start investigation as per the law and it would have been considered consequential as per NAB practices instead of an anomaly. They would have (allowed) taken bail and left for good without the mayhem they were allowed to spread.

THESE SAME PEOPLE and even the rest of PML would have elected new leaders and followed the lead of establishment as always.

Waste of time, economic loss and world wide hilarity later, we find the path still being considered as a tentative choice instead of outrightly followed simply because of neutrality issues. Once again, Had the same as above been done after DQ then it would have been timely and considered as normal. Instead and meanwhile we find the accused as raising the stakes higher and higher.

 

[Farah Sohail]

Things are falling into place themselves; in politics the defeat is not physical defeat. It always means checkmate on the board of politics.

Please don’t infer from my post that it’s a pre-plan, it’s not - as far as I know!

Judiciary and Army both won’t have any solo flight as it’s tumultuous so it’s better to have more passengers (others on board as well).
.

One more thing.. If NS is allowed to escape and he lives abroad and PMLN splits and establishment ..(judiciary/army/bureaucracy) is happy at this..aur cases ka kuch nahi hota....what if..after few yrs ..they return again with even more power and venom and Maryam becomes PM then? PML N was split in 99 too...PML Q was formed..sharif family was sent in exile..but they returned..majority of PML Q leaders went back to PML N..and he became PM again........ NS cant become PM again..but Maryam can..if nothing comes out of these NAB references..

Wont it be a much worse scenario then? So..i am surprised tht why would establishment be only happy at split of PML N? NS sent in exile and PML N split has already happened in past..and he has returned to power too, after tht..

Split of PML N will be good in short term....so .tht they arent able to bring further ammendments and bills...right now and for tht split must happen real soon.............But it wont be good in long term..if nothing comes out of these NAB references.. Maryam can return to power after 3-4 yrs again..and that will be the worst scenario.. This is the reason ..i think logical conclusion of NAb references is most important...if it doesnt happen..then every one be ready to welcome Maryam as our future PM

 

[Shane]

One more thing.. If NS is allowed to escape and he lives abroad and PMLN splits and establishment ..(judiciary/army/bureaucracy) is happy at this..aur cases ka kuch nahi hota....what if..after few yrs ..they return again with even more power and venom and Maryam becomes PM then? PML N was split in 99 too...PML Q was formed..sharif family was sent in exile..but they returned..majority of PML Q leaders went back to PML N..and he became PM again........ NS cant become PM again..but Maryam can..if nothing comes out of these NAB references..

Wont it be a much worse scenario then? So..i am surprised tht why would establishment be only happy at split of PML N? NS sent in exile and PML N split has already happened in past..and he has returned to power too, after tht..

Split of PML N will be good in short term....so .tht they arent able to bring further ammendments and bills..........But it wont be good in long term..if nothing comes out of these NAB references.. Maryam can return to power after 3-4 yrs again..and that will be the worst scenario.. This is the reason ..i think logical conclusion of NAb references is most important...if it doesnt happen..then every one be ready to welcome Maryam as our future PM

Because IK and the rest are considered just as unreliable and mercurial, all boats are never burnt, hence we stand where we do after 70 years. Carrots and sticks for everyone. Cry as we may but it is so.

 

[El Sidd]

Supreme Court CJ and President of Pakistan.

In dono se one on one meeting karni paregi ab.

Uncle log bohat sust hain

 

[Realistic Change]

This is why it gets frustrating that this was to be done after DQ, it should have been done at that time and we would have been spared the turmoil and chaos since the verdict.

The clocks of NAB officials should have been winded up to arrest the Tabbar and start investigation as per the law and it would have been considered consequential as per NAB practices instead of an anomaly. They would have (allowed) taken bail and left for good without the mayhem they were allowed to spread.

THESE SAME PEOPLE and even the rest of PML would have elected new leaders and followed the lead of establishment as always.

Waste of time, economic loss and world wide hilarity later, we find the path still being considered as a tentative choice instead of outrightly followed simply because of neutrality issues. Once again, Had the same as above been done after DQ then it would have been timely and considered as normal. Instead and meanwhile we find the accused as raising the stakes higher and higher.

Let me rephrase it; that list of parliamentarians shouldn’t be construed as Establishment’s men; they are on their own. Only reason they don’t want to be at forefront is that they have enough strength to win their constituencies on their own. Most of these have personal/family vote bank in excess of 100-000 to 150,000 out of which polled votes are in high 80-90k and add another 10-15 of any party’s vote and they are gold. They remain low lying throughout 5 years yet get their work done - appealing to their local constituents.

That was the reality why Nawaz gave tickets to 150 plus Ex-PMLQ members (both houses) even after saying that he won’t lick his own spit. Anyways.... back to the point - DQ wasn’t engineered by any institution it was done on merit as there was no confluence of Army & Judiciary that’s why weaker judgment; had there been a partnership of these two Nawaz would have been ripped apart into pieces.

One more thing.. If NS is allowed to escape and he lives abroad and PMLN splits and establishment ..(judiciary/army/bureaucracy) is happy at this..aur cases ka kuch nahi hota....what if..after few yrs ..they return again with even more power and venom and Maryam becomes PM then? PML N was split in 99 too...PML Q was formed..sharif family was sent in exile..but they returned..majority of PML Q leaders went back to PML N..and he became PM again........ NS cant become PM again..but Maryam can..if nothing comes out of these NAB references..

Wont it be a much worse scenario then? So..i am surprised tht why would establishment be only happy at split of PML N? NS sent in exile and PML N split has already happened in past..and he has returned to power too, after tht..

Split of PML N will be good in short term....so .tht they arent able to bring further ammendments and bills...right now and for tht split must happen real soon.............But it wont be good in long term..if nothing comes out of these NAB references.. Maryam can return to power after 3-4 yrs again..and that will be the worst scenario.. This is the reason ..i think logical conclusion of NAb references is most important...if it doesnt happen..then every one be ready to welcome Maryam as our future PM

If what I am aware of or am thinking what will happen then Sharif’s will be done forever. There’s no way Maryam can get the role without splitting the party - that is if she remains unscathed after the cases. Suppose she gets away; Imagine Maryam leading a group of party without Shahbaz & Hamza’s group in Punjab and without Nisar at Federal level.

I do not think Abbasi can stick nor 80% of Abbasi’s cabinet will ever report to Maryam - now she has too much baggage of Anti Army & Judiciary - she wasn’t polarizing personality in 2014-2015 now she has been cornered like Altaf Hussain and she is pretty much drum beaters leader now.

Nawaz himself is not keeping well; I think I mentioned that even if panama didn’t happen in 2016, Nawaz had made up his mind to launch Maryam - after her failed launch as Chief of Youth Program and for 2018 Nawaz had made all plans to see her daughter to counter PTI’s sloganeering of youth party. Khair long story short; only Sharif that will be left in the country unblemished will be my friend; since he is not into politics and has always remained removed from this filth - well until now

 

[Shane]

Supreme Court CJ and President of Pakistan.

In dono se one on one meeting karni paregi ab.

Uncle log bohat sust hain

Kyun sir jee aap ka Gulalai ko caretaker bananay ka irada hay...

 

[El Sidd]

Kyun sir jee aap ka Gulalai ko caretaker bananay ka irada hay...

Har hukoomat caretaker hi Hoti ha yahan.

 

[Shane]

DQ wasn’t engineered by any institution it was done on merit as there was no confluence of Army & Judiciary that’s why weaker judgment; had there been a partnership of these two Nawaz would have been ripped apart into pieces.

Agreed 100%. But the aftermath was ominous and should have been managed earlier rather than waiting for things to go from bad to worse now that the stakes are being raised higher and higher.

Har hukoomat caretaker hi Hoti ha yahan.

Apni apni care

 

[Realistic Change]

Agreed 100%. But the aftermath was ominous and should have been managed earlier rather than waiting for things to go from bad to worse now that the stakes are being raised higher and higher.

As both (Army & Judiciary) tried to be seen as totally independent and non interfering they acted way more cautiously and being extra conscious has lead to this situation.

In all honesty; none of the political parties that I have connections with or bureaucracy or armed forces thought Sharif would destroy his politics so easily. He is acting as GM Syed of 70’s/80’s and Altaf of 2017 mixed together. That took many by surprise; and even now. It’s bit of unknown what steps will he take. Nawaz being his old self; keeping decisions secret until he declares it.

Remember; Maryam saying with sigh of relief....politics still revolves around my dad. What do you make of her this statement?

It doesn’t anymore; hence blackmailing a of parliamentarians including their Deputy Speaker NA - hahaha!

I earnestly wish Lt Gen Aamer Riaz was COAS at this time; had he been; things would have been way different than what they are now!

 

[Shane]

As both (Army & Judiciary) tried to be seen as totally independent and non interfering they acted way more cautiously and being extra conscious has lead to this situation.

In all honesty; none of the political parties that I have connections with or bureaucracy or armed forces thought Sharif would destroy his politics so easily. He is acting as GM Syed of 70’s/80’s and Altaf of 2017 mixed together. That took many by surprise; and even now. It’s bit of unknown what steps will he take. Nawaz being his old self; keeping decisions secret until he declares it.

Remember; Maryam saying with sigh of relief....politics still revolves around my dad. What do you make of her this statement?

It doesn’t anymore; hence blackmailing a of parliamentarians including their Deputy Speaker NA - hahaha!

I earnestly wish Lt Gen Aamer Riaz was COAS at this time; had he been; things would have been way different than what they are now!

Nawaz always chops his own legs but seems the axe went a bit higher this time around

 

[PakSword]

1. Nawaz family behind bars is less attractive than discredited and out for certain quarters. His party is not PPP (of Bhutto) nor MQM of Altaf having ideology - it’s a cobbled one of self interests of members. It’s main voter is not jiyala- they are ......to say the least mouldable

2. Nawaz staying away will quicken the process, remember you asked if he’ll come back when he ran to London the first time. He has to visit at least in near future or else he will seek asylum as no other way to even lead a fragmented part of PMLN or whatever it will be then.

3. Shahbaz is band aid - he can’t be there for long too; as I discussed before; because of serious health issues plus Model Town as well as other cases.

That is why Nisar keeps sticking in - he has a “hope” we did discuss this great lengths and I have said before that his best bet is to stay put rather than leaving. Now you know why I said he will not leave although he still has standing offer - a very attractive one!

I don't care as long as we are get rid of the whole Shareef family from this country, including Hamza and Junaid Safdar..

So meaning the info I gathered in bits and pieces was somewhat correct...

If what I am aware of or am thinking what will happen then Sharif’s will be done forever. There’s no way Maryam can get the role without splitting the party - that is if she remains unscathed after the cases. Suppose she gets away; Imagine Maryam leading a group of party without Shahbaz & Hamza’s group in Punjab and without Nisar at Federal level.

 

[Realistic Change]

Shane said: ↑
One thing is for sure now. Sharifs are not coming back any time soon as they most likely won't decide on chopping their legs off at this point.

Their cases will not go ahead in absentia as the SC has said in some verdict that it is unconstitutional to prosecute in absentia.

This means that cases have, after all, ended up in a DARK ALLEY as the judges wrote in Panama decision that they won't let that happen, yet this is exactly what is happening.

The million dollar question is:

WHAT HAVE THE JUDGES TO SAY IN RESPONSE TO THE CURRENT SCENARIO WHERE THE CASES LITERALLY STAND RIGHT IN THE CENTRE OF THEIR OWN DREADED DARK ALLEY?

JUDICIAL DIS-FUNCTIONALISM ???
The very basis of our state of affairs.

@El Sidd @Realistic Change @Arsalan @The Accountant @Farah Sohail @Verve @Guvera@El_Swordsmen @Hyprion Please tell me if I am wrong. Please tell me that there is some other way.

I wish someone have crystal ball- I hear what you are saying, and agree to it in principle.

@Farah Sohail, @PakSword and @Arsalan must remember - I always say:

“Incremental change is NOT POSSIBLE in current system, as it’s hijacked by beneficiaries”

However, Nawaz and his Tupperware have to return; or he will be even more discredited than Altaf Hussain. He will be replaced and finished politically within hours as his strength is not ideology but power and money. He’s no BB who can keep party intact in absentia.

When he was riding the crest of so called Jamhoriyat against dictator his party blew up in bubbles in days. Now, he’s officially tainted.

The issue becomes; power brokers and one of the most important amongst those but least talked about are bureaucrats who are in bed with Sharifs
to save their own skin.

A classified report in a western country was released few weeks ago highlighting $100 million and above account holders without known sources fearing its drug money etc.,. It was shared with Govt of Pak as well; guess what; hundreds of bureaucrats were identified and hence given “Clearance” by GOP to not take action as it’s legitimate money. Ha!

Post of Sep 20th - basically in response to respected member @Shane - I think, situation of Nawaz has worsened from that point as evident from first change in declaration to seek "blessings" of three western Govt's by Zahid Hamid, Pervez Rashid, Maryam Aurangzeb, and Asim Kirmani - Status: Backfired!

Antidote to above backfire: Go ultra Bralevi appeasement and fire on minorities to again appease two Govt's by MNA on Wazeefa - Status: Backfired!

Antidote to above backfire: Go ultra Deobandi appeasement and discredit above howling of MNA on Mahana Wazeefa - Status: Total Confusion re which stance to stick for optics as well politics

Maryam herself will be as irrelevant as Nawaz. I know for sure; $harifs are history - albeit a gory one!

What choices do $harifs have now?

1. Appear in courts on 28th
2. Delay appearing, if this; then
3. Till when?
4. Hope for NRO
5. Exile

If AAZ assures support for passing the bills from Upper House, then he might let SKA dissolve assembly (as also discussed in meeting in London) after achieving the goals, since AAZ is a politician, he’s squeezing max out of Sharifs now, hence in current situation Nawaz is on his own.

Now Golden goal is to reach March 18’ in one piece.

And it’s not going to happen - there is no way that Nawaz and his family including Shahbaz’s family can be saved.

Every option listed above has too much weight to bring his family, and party down.

As for Monitoring Judge - it will not play the role of Chairman NAB nor DG FIA but all in good time - he will do the “right” thing!

————

Reports: Planned chaos bubble to start soon.

1. Fuel Shortages (Fake)
2. Electricity Tariffs to be increased substantially

Putting blame on disqualification.

This strategy of creating economic chaos is still on; as it was always part; as Dar-Economics is based on his own strategy for House of Sharif's - Obtain Loans to Service Loans and then come into power and get it written off; the issue is Dar did not know that he was only dreaming when he was Chief of IMF - he can't write off in real life; but in khawab (dreams) he may write off Pakistan's debt.

Bold in red Above of Sep 20th and Bold in red below post of Oct 1st: Dissolution is perhaps the least desired option for PMLN; but also the most feasible with each passing day. I know they will try to hold till March 2018 and almost all of the members on this forum never thought that PMLN can think of dissolving assemblies before senate elections - but in this game; Zardari and Imran will be together with the same POV; plus more PMLN tries to expedite law making to protect Nawaz; it will put both; Judiciary and Army in anti PMLN camp; one of the bills; will be striked down which will do this:

I abhor $harifs no end but love Zahid Hamid, Parvez Rasheed and Dr Kirmani the most amongst all his advisers for their roles and specific suggestions (not sharing boring details re what particular advices resulted in this debacle) which resulted in whirlwind downfall of Nawaz in particular; and Maryam’s future prospects in general and PML’s future by and large.

They have literally grabbed him (and party) and pushed him (it) over the cliff.

Standing ovation to three blessings in ugliest possible disguise!

Soon a lot of eggs on the faces of top PMLN leadership episodes (e.g., when newly elected President of PMLN would have to step down again) are coming up. As I said before, just have a big pop corn bag, a comfy chair and watch unfolding of PMLN; giving way to it’s slightly better versions!

It’s a four way accident, and airbag malfunctioned and brakes failed (by Three Stooges) only in the vehicle that was carrying one party. Any guesses

 

[Guvera]

To all those who r way too scared from a possibility of Maryam leading PML-N and becomes Prime minister after next elections, with all due respect you are living in fool's paradise, maryam is no Benazir Bhutto and nawaz is not bhutto either, as far as nawaz coming back after few years is anyone's wish, his health is not good he is aged now and mind u this is not 1999 its 2018 almost. Maryam on his own cannot win a City Nazim seat, remember what @Realistic Change have said about difference between PPP and PML-N he was absolutely spot on, PML-N is not about ideology...no way and please do not compare situation with 1999, right now Nawaz is 18 years more aged than what he was in 1999.

@PakSword @Farah Sohail