Pakistan's Submarine Procurement

[sancho]

We need a 10-15 sub fleet by the end of this decade if we have to properly defend our sea shores and with the budget we have, that we can't have 10-15 big subs, but these smaller, lethal ones can do the job for us perfectly.

Aren't 10 - 15 subs a bit too much to defend the sea shores? Not even the Royal Navy, or French Navy have that many subs.

 

[TaimiKhan]

The deal is still alive and it might be less the German side that delays it, some weeks ago I read in a German news that the security council of German Gov already cleared the sale of these subs to PN. As I said last november, this new Gov. will always help companies and only thinks about money making.
The only problems for this deal are a possible sale to IN, or if there would be major critics of the opposition parties in the parliament, but with the financial and EURO crisis, they have more than enough other problems.

So what else could delay this deal? Fundings? ToT? Fear of secure technology?

If PN had done the agreement to an extent of 95% by 2008 and the Germans are willing to sell, then the one fear that is stopping it is:

Zardari, our incompetent kick back eating president.

Since he came to power, the deal went wrong and nothing has been signed since then.

Beside him, there is nothing which would be stopping the deal from going through.

 

[TaimiKhan]

Aren't 10 - 15 subs a bit too much to defend the sea shores? Not even the Royal Navy, or French Navy have that many subs.

Well i am talking with context of end of decade, meaning 2020, by then Indian surface fleet would be very strong as well as their sub fleet, and sea shores doesn't means just a few kilometers or, rather more then few hundred kilometers as IN can launch missiles from far away, even from their own sea area or international waters and hit Karachi or any important places within Pakistan.

So best strategy would be to intercept them and engage them as far as possible.

The sea shore was used in a metaphorical terms.

As for other navies, well they have strong surface fleets and subs mostly as 2nd strike options, we on the other hand need them to defend the mighty Indian fleet, which we can't do with ships, rather subs would be more suitable, thus more subs, more chances of engaging IN ships and keeping them or trying to keep them far away from sea shores.

 

[Comet]

Can any one start Andrasta Vs. U-214 Thread?
If it is already there then point me.

 

[TaimiKhan]

Can any one start Andrasta Vs. U-214 Thread?
If it is already there then point me.

Why doing a comparison between two different sub classes ??

U-214 is a big sub, more then double the tonnage of Andrasta's, more fire power in it.

So there is no logic in comparing both of them, U-214 is completely a different class of sub, while Andrasta is a smaller sub for a different role.

Its as usual like comparing MKI with JF-17. Totally different aircraft for different usage.

 

[Comet]

Why doing a comparison between two different sub classes ??

U-214 is a big sub, more then double the tonnage of Andrasta's, more fire power in it.

So there is no logic in comparing both of them, U-214 is completely a different class of sub, while Andrasta is a smaller sub for a different role.

Its as usual like comparing MKI with JF-17. Totally different aircraft for different usage.

Sorry, My Bad.

Its just that I thought PN is going for Andrasta instead of U-214 so wee need to see which one does what.

 

[was]

A Sub for Brown Water Use

One submarine that can take on emerging littoral threats is the ANDRASTA submarine, a multipurpose submarine that can operate efficiently and effectively in brown waters. ANDRASTA possesses rugged and reliable platform systems, advanced combat system capabilities and architecture inherited from the Scorpène-class submarine.

ANDRASTA possesses growth potential for additional payloads, such as swimmer delivery vehicle capability and external capacities for mines. Provisions have been made for air defense weapons. Maneuverable in deep and shallow waters, ANDRASTA is fitted with an X-shaped aft steering gear developed for the new French SSN Barracuda class to allow for greater depth control. In addition, forward hydroplanes enable faster crash diving and good diving stability.

ANDRASTA has a high level of automation. In typical diving conditions, five crew members operate under a three-watch system for efficient and safe operations. The submarine is equipped with technologies inherited from the Direction des Constructions Navales Services combat system family. It can perform a range of functionalities, such as providing the raw data from all sensors, tactical situation elaboration and evaluation, tactical aids and target engagement.

It is equipped with a complete panel of acoustic sensors, including cylindrical array, distributed array, flank array, mine and obstacle avoidance sonar, interception array and active array antennae. The sub’s above-water detection includes a radar and attack optronic mast with high-definition television, low-light television, an infrared ranging system and electronic support measures. An extended communications suite consists of a multifunction communications mast, a high-frequency buoyant wire antenna and an INMARSAT (London, England) C antenna. Coherent with its littoral deterrence mission are six ready-to-launch heavyweight torpedoes and anti-ship missiles.

Finally, ANDRASTA is fitted with a dedicated diver trunk, enabling it to simultaneously support three divers at a time. A large area in the sail is designed to be the divers’ external meeting point before and after operations, and the sub is outfitted with dedicated equipment storage.

 

[TaimiKhan]

Sorry, My Bad.

Its just that I thought PN is going for Andrasta instead of U-214 so wee need to see which one does what.

Andrasta is not instead of U-214, it is supposed to be with the U-214.

If you remember the PN chief had said we want to go for 7 submarines, when he visited China a few months back.

So the report says 4 Andrasta's with 3 U-214s, thus it makes in total 7.

So this may be the new game currently.

PN may replace its 90Bs with Chinese in the future as they have still lot of life left in them.

 

[Sinnerman108]

The deal is still alive and it might be less the German side that delays it, some weeks ago I read in a German news that the security council of German Gov already cleared the sale of these subs to PN. As I said last november, this new Gov. will always help companies and only thinks about money making.
The only problems for this deal are a possible sale to IN, or if there would be major critics of the opposition parties in the parliament, but with the financial and EURO crisis, they have more than enough other problems.

So what else could delay this deal? Fundings? ToT? Fear of secure technology?

Nopes,

if you know germans are pretty straight forward in business,
French on the other part, can deal with Zardari very effectively.

 

[razgriz19]

Chinese are big subs and so far are not that much advanced as the French or German ones.

What we can do is go for 3 U-214s, 4 of these for now with ToT to the extend possible, and by then the Agosta-90Bs would be pretty old too, so for their replacement we can see to the Chinese subs as hopefully by end of the decade, their tech would be much advanced and they would be able to give us the best they can offer.

We need a 10-15 sub fleet by the end of this decade if we have to properly defend our sea shores and with the budget we have, that we can't have 10-15 big subs, but these smaller, lethal ones can do the job for us perfectly.

we r good with 5-6 subs!
they r enough to secure our waters...
3 agosta and 3 type 214 or any other sub would make our sub fleet quite strong.

 

[Quwa]

If acquired, the Andrasta Class SSK will not only serve as PN's defensive submarine in its littoral zones, but also assume the infiltration & mine-laying role of the current mini-submarines. Nonetheless, Andrasta, MILGEM and MRTP-33 would form an excellent fleet for littoral/brown water coverage.

 

[mughaljee]

I am happy too,
U-214 deal is not completely dead.

 

[TaimiKhan]

If acquired, the Andrasta Class SSK will not only serve as PN's defensive submarine in its littoral zones, but also assume the infiltration & mine-laying role of the current mini-submarines. Nonetheless, Andrasta, MILGEM and MRTP-33 would form an excellent fleet for littoral/brown water coverage.

Well Sir, if we add to it the Type-022 Stealth FAC ship, it will be another added advantage.

It is said to have very good stealth characteristics and radars can't pic it easily, if we had a few of them, it will be one hell of a sub fleet combined with the ones you have mentioned.

 

[ironman]

There is a cutaway model of a DCNS submarine has been displayed in IDEAS 2008. Which one is that ?

 

[TaimiKhan]

There is a cutaway model of a DCNS submarine has been displayed in IDEAS 2008. Which one is that ?

That's the Marlin i believe, but they must have put models of other ones also.