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Pakistan's Submarine Procurement

Well Sir, if we add to it the Type-022 Stealth FAC ship, it will be another added advantage.

It is said to have very good stealth characteristics and radars can't pic it easily, if we had a few of them, it will be one hell of a sub fleet combined with the ones you have mentioned.
As good as Type-022 may be, I think the PN will acquire additional MRTP-33 - and perhaps have them built in Pakistan too. It's an excellent FAC design, and I am sure they can customize it to carry non-American AShM. Although I wonder if PN would consider the option of smaller corvettes - i.e. something comparable to Visby, but of Turkish design and origin?
 
If acquired, the Andrasta Class SSK will not only serve as PN's defensive submarine in its littoral zones, but also assume the infiltration & mine-laying role of the current mini-submarines. Nonetheless, Andrasta, MILGEM and MRTP-33 would form an excellent fleet for littoral/brown water coverage.

I totally agree with Mark here. The possible Andrasta deal should not be looked upon in the context of ocean going submarines but an effort to streamline the mix of small X Type crafts and the older Daphne Class submarines.

In my opinion PN is trying to get alteast two missions accomplished by buying these boats; 1. Coastal/inner line of defence (At this point in time non-existant) and 2. Harbour Mining and Special Ops. Missions earmarked for previously for the X type Italian boats.

It is real out of the box thinking and as Taimikhan put it someone in PN has his thinking cap on!!!;-)

The only negative is that we have always negated the Marlins beacuse of simillarites between the Scorpene and now we are trying to get something with is infact a little bro. of the bigger fish!;)
 
11 June 2010

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China's vice-president, Zheng Dejiang, met with civil and military leaders in Pakistan on 9-10 June in a visit surrounded by reports of a major new defence deal under discussion that would see Pakistan buying at least three Chinese submarines.

Speaking to Jane's on 9 June, a senior Pakistani government official said the Pakistan Navy began discussions with "the Chinese authorities last month for an eventual submarine deal" for up to three or four boats, but declined to specify the types or terms under discussion.

China has a long history of helping Pakistan overcome shortages of key military hardware, notably the hardware it was denied by the Western world following sanctions imposed from 1990 in response to Pakistan's nuclear weapons programme.

The Pakistani government official who spoke to Jane's on 9 June said that it was vital for the navy to acquire more submarines to offset "the pressure we will definitely come under" due to the rapid expansion of India's naval capability. "Our Chinese brothers have always come to our help and we are asking them for assistance once again," he said.

Although neither China nor Pakistan have ever publicly revealed the terms of their past financial arrangements, defence analysts say that China continues to offer long-term loans to Pakistan on concessional terms, allowing the country to continue with its military hardware purchases.

Pakistan begins submarine procurement talks with China
 
As good as Type-022 may be, I think the PN will acquire additional MRTP-33 - and perhaps have them built in Pakistan too. It's an excellent FAC design, and I am sure they can customize it to carry non-American AShM. Although I wonder if PN would consider the option of smaller corvettes - i.e. something comparable to Visby, but of Turkish design and origin?

Additional MRTP-33z???
bro i am sorry i have been away from forum from quite some time now.. can you please brief how much we initially have planned to get and is this a done deal??

thank you!
 
Additional MRTP-33z???
bro i am sorry i have been away from forum from quite some time now.. can you please brief how much we initially have planned to get and is this a done deal??

thank you!
Bro it was just my opinion, "I think..."

It is real out of the box thinking and as Taimikhan put it someone in PN has his thinking cap on!!!;-)

The only negative is that we have always negated the Marlins beacuse of simillarites between the Scorpene and now we are trying to get something with is infact a little bro. of the bigger fish!;)
Agreed, but I think the bigger reason why PN negated Marlin was because a submarine of its apparent calibre - i.e. U-214 - was already developed and in production for Greece & ROK. That said, Andrasta is a unique solution and the only alternative could be the German Type-210mod; but I'm not sure if it is available, or even in line for development. Hopefully the size and other differences between Scorpene and Andrasta will allow for the latter to be a dissimilar opponent for IN.
 
Pakistan thinks small scale for subs
Usman Ansari
Monday, June 14, 2010

Apparently, so the story goes, Pakistan is looking at purchasing a number of small coastal submarines from the French in order to patrol the shallow coastal waters found in and around its EEZ. The submarine in question is the French DCNS Andrasta.


You can see, probably the most up to date set of figures at this time, here:


www.dcnsgroup.com/files/pdf/Andrasta.pdf


It all seems fairly impressive. The Andrasta design is an evolution of the SMX-23, which then DCN were pushing back in 2006 at IDEAS 2006 in Karachi. I wrote a little about it for PakDef in my IDEAS2006 report:


www.pakdef.info/exhibitions/ideas2006/index.html


Contrary to what I wrote in 2006, it seems now that there is a requirement for such a submarine, because unbeknown to me, the waters around the EEZ and nearby Indian littoral, are actually quite shallow, and therefore rather difficult for larger submarines to operate in.


The Andrasta is a fairly compact submarine at only 49 metres long, and from the looks of the computer generated images available, looks like it would probably be a fairly manoeuvrable craft, well capable of operating in shallow waters.


However, there is one aspect of this which is rather more interesting however, and that is that Pakistan would like to know if the design can modified to include an AIP unit. The French claim it can. At this point alarm bells should be ringing. The Andrasta is a ‘paper design’ like the Marlin (or ‘submarine formerly known as Marlin’ – now a ‘member’ of the Scorpene family). Though it claims to have 70 percent commonality with the Scorpene, it is still a ‘paper design’, because it exists only on paper. With so much riding on its long drawn out submarine acquisition programme, (now thought to include talks for a number of Chinese submarines as well), can Pakistan risk making a mistake? The answer is obviously “NO!”, because Pakistan is a highly indebted nation (thanks to staggering financial mismanagement by the current government), and is surviving on loans because it has very little money of its own, (because the very few Pakistanis that should legitimately be paying the most taxes, have the most violent aversion to paying any taxes at all – amongst other things).


There is always considerable risk in buying something ‘off plan’. Ask the Greeks. They purchased the Type-209 ‘off plan’, and then did the same for the Type-214. Both of these submarine designs are superb and have been very successful, but designs need to mature, and there are always glitches that need fixing in even the best of platforms. With two Agosta-70 submarines that are approaching retirement, the Pakistan Navy cannot be allowed to be left with just three Khalid class submarines to shoulder the entire operational burden. However, if there are any more delays, that is what we are facing. Leaving aside the question of whether we will ever see the Type-214 in service, or the Chinese Type-041A Yuan class (or will it be the Type-039 Song class?), if Pakistan really is serious about a small submarine then perhaps there are alternatives. There is one very obvious one, the HDW Type-210mod.


Here is HDW’s official Type-210mod page:


http://www.hdw.de/en/class-210mod.html



As can be seen, it is a slightly larger design than the Andrasta, but the that should not be taken as the key difference (bar some clear performance and armament advantages in favour of the Type-210mod), because if a 6 metre AIP ‘plug’ is inserted into the French submarine, they will both be of similar dimensions. The key difference is, is that the Type-210mod is a far less risky design. The risk in fact seems to be minimal.


For a start it is based on an existing design, the Norwegian Ula class that has been in service for around twenty years. Here’s the Military Today page for the Ula class submarine:


Ula Class Patrol Submarine | Military-Today.com


(It has a short film that shows you nothing in particular if you’re interested). Or if it takes your fancy, here’s the Wiki entry:


Ula class submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


As you can see, it is a fairly decent design with good pedigree. However, the Type-210mod takes things a step further, because it incorporates design characteristics and systems from the Type-209/1400mod, Type-212A, and Type-214. There is therefore very little that needs to be proven, as pretty much everything is not only a physical reality, but already in service.


The Type-210mod does not have a hydrogen fuel cell AIP unit, but considering it has a range of 5000miles, it probably doesn’t need one. This is after all a coastal submarine. Also the Type-210mod’s Permaysn motor (as I understand is fitted to the Type-212A), is apparently able to recharge the batteries quicker than would normally be the case. I’m not sure if the AIP unit will do much to increase the overall range of the Andrasta in relation to that of the Type-210mod either. The Type-210mod is clearly the superior submarine in every respect.


It could be said that after the Khalid class programme, Pakistan has the technological base to manufacture the Andrasta, whereas things would need modifying to build the Type-210mod. That is true to some extent, but not completely. Pakistan has the technological capacity to fabricate the basic hull and the pressure hull, but it lacks the capacity to completely build the entire submarine. For a start there are no presses in Pakistan to fabricate the pressure domes of the pressure hull. This is a highly specialised and costly piece of equipment. A country would only invest in such a piece of equipment if it was to have a constant need for it. Other sub-systems would also have to come from France such as the AIP module, the SUBTICS combat management system, the diesel engine, the sensors, probably even the weapon handling systems, and a whole host of other things besides. The notion therefore that Pakistan may also be able to export these submarines if it was the launch customer is rather fanciful. Everything would depend on the French agreeing to support the deal. It probably would never happen.


The only thing that I can think Pakistani domestic defence industry could supply would be something like the MSL Towed Array Sonar, which is a compact system optimised for the conditions found in and around the Arabian Sea. Obviously there would be other things as well, but off the top of my head, I can only think of this system.


There are probably more industrial benefits to be had by selecting the Type-210mod, especially if Pakistan does finally get around to signing on the dotted line for the Type-214. The two designs share a commonality in systems, and the facilities upgraded to manufacture the Type-214 would probably be entirely sufficient to manufacture the Type-210mod. HDW may even be amiable to agreeing to a lower unit price if both types are selected. It would after all be good news for HDW as they would be securing another Type-214 deal, and would have found a launch customer for the Type-210mod.


It is however, price that is the deciding factor here. The Andrasta is probably cheaper, (though it is French, so we cannot be entirely sure there given their track record of grossly inflating prices – let’s just assume it is the case that it’s cheaper though). Pakistan is broke, and is looking around to obtain what it can for the meagre pennies it has.


Let’s just hope that if it is the case that cost is a factor, it isn’t anything to do with ‘baksheesh’ though. This is after all Pakistan potentially negotiating a defence deal with the French. There is past form to consider.


Let’s wait and see if this is all true to start off though…

Usman Ansari
 
PN talks on with France, Germany and China.
France 3 Andrasta.
Germany 3 U214
China 2 or 3 Unknown
 
11 June 2010

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China's vice-president, Zheng Dejiang, met with civil and military leaders in Pakistan on 9-10 June in a visit surrounded by reports of a major new defence deal under discussion that would see Pakistan buying at least three Chinese submarines.

Speaking to Jane's on 9 June, a senior Pakistani government official said the Pakistan Navy began discussions with "the Chinese authorities last month for an eventual submarine deal" for up to three or four boats, but declined to specify the types or terms under discussion.

China has a long history of helping Pakistan overcome shortages of key military hardware, notably the hardware it was denied by the Western world following sanctions imposed from 1990 in response to Pakistan's nuclear weapons programme.

The Pakistani government official who spoke to Jane's on 9 June said that it was vital for the navy to acquire more submarines to offset "the pressure we will definitely come under" due to the rapid expansion of India's naval capability. "Our Chinese brothers have always come to our help and we are asking them for assistance once again," he said.

Although neither China nor Pakistan have ever publicly revealed the terms of their past financial arrangements, defence analysts say that China continues to offer long-term loans to Pakistan on concessional terms, allowing the country to continue with its military hardware purchases.

Pakistan begins submarine procurement talks with China

Great Pak/China friendship...will offset the evil power pressure around the Globe soon inshallah........
:pakistan::china::pdf:
 
PN talks on with France, Germany and China.
France 3 Andrasta.
Germany 3 U214
China 2 or 3 Unknown

dont you think you are being a bit to optimistic!!!:lol:
as for andrasta, they are not good for offensive operations at all, though a slient little killer, the assasin can only operate close to home and may not be bearing the toughness of rough seas!
said all this, i admire the little killer as silent stealth killing machine,,

regards!
 
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The 19-crew, 855t displacement, Andrasta submarine, announced by DCNS in September 2008, has been optimised for littoral operations in coastal waters, but remains a formidable adversary in blue (deep) water environments.

The submarine is named after Andrasta, the Celtic goddess of war whose name means victorious or invincible. The prime contractor, DCNS, considers that the Andrasta has no equivalent for littoral missions in terms of manoeuvrability and stealth.
3-andrasta.jpg

The submarine design draws heavily on the proven configuration and systems adopted for the Scorpene family and has about 70% commonality with the Scorpene. The Andrasta surfaced displacement is 855t compared to the 1,790t to 2,010t displacement of the Scorpene. The submarine incorporates the same level of safety, stealth signatures and systems integration as the Scorpene.

The Andrasta can lurk on the seabed in coastal waters where the water depth is typically less than 100m. At a speed of 4kt the range is more than 3,000nm and more than 1,800nm at 8kt.

Andrasta is being presented to world markets at about half the cost of attack submarines such as the Scorpene. The Andrasta design can incorporate extra performance options which are not mandatory for littoral missions but which customer countries may require, without degrading the submarine’s efficiency.

For specials operations, the Andrasta has a deployment airlock for combat swimmers, electronic warfare and intelligence gathering systems

5-andrasta.jpg


Andrasta missions
The submarine missions cover anti-submarine warfare, anti-surface warfare, intelligence gathering, special operations, offensive mine mooring, covert tracking of illegal activities, single ship operations and cooperative operations with other ships or maritime assets. The Andrasta is equipped to communicate easily with other assets and command centres.

Design

The double-hull structure gives good survivability and surfaced sea keeping characteristics. An X-configuration rudder has independently operated surfaces for a high level of manoeuvrability including a small turning radius.

The small hull helps contribute to the submarine's stealth characteristics. The submarine has a diving depth to 200m and a submerged endurance of five days. It also has a very low acoustic and visual signature


Command and control
The Andrasta is equipped with the DCNS SUBTICS submarine tactical integrated combat system. SUBTICS systems are in operation aboard Scorpene submarines of the Chilean Navy and Agosta 90B submarines for the Pakistan Navy

The combat management system is integrated with the sonar and other sensors (optical, optronic, electronic support measures, radar) and carries out the location and identification of vessels, target tracking, tactical analysis, decision making, action management, exchange of tactical data via datalinks, the control of weapons systems and engagement of targets.

"Andrasta's double-hull structure gives good survivability and surfaced sea keeping characteristics."The submarine is equipped with high-precision navigation and surveillance systems for operation in littoral waters. Surveillance missions can be successfully carried out while the submarine is at rest on the seabed.

2-andrasta.jpg


Weapons
The Andrasta can accommodate new-generation heavyweight torpedoes such as the Black Shark, anti-ship missiles such as the Exocet SM-39 and a mine-laying system. The torpedoes and missiles are stored and carried in the six forward torpedo tubes. The small hull size of the submarine does not accommodate torpedoes and missiles for reload.

4-andrasta.jpg

i hope this helps!!

regards!
 
Asdrast is infact a good defensive machine, can deal with anyting comming toward your coastal water but what one must remember is that for Pakistan Navy, Submarine is there only offensive weapon.

here are a few words from the supplier:

A coherent product
Capable of carrying out most of the missions traditionally entrusted to conventional submarines, the Andrasta deters all potential aggressors from operating in the coastal waters under its surveillance.
This class of submarine proves to be particularly suited to carrying out special operations or information-gathering assignments, missions of vital importance even in times of peace.

Its new-generation combat system, and its ability to make use of heavyweight weapon systems such as torpedoes or missiles, make it a formidable weapon in its own right.
Drawing massively on the solutions tried and tested on the Scorpène, the coherence of the architectural choices with the missions entrusted to it make it a product offering a reduced cost of acquisition and ownership.



Designed for all types of navies – irrespective of whether they want to develop a submarine capacity or reinforce existing resources with a product of unrivaled quality in coastal operations – the Andrasta creates a new category in the panorama of conventional submarines.

Length: 49 m
Surface displacement: 855 metric tons
Speed when submerged: >15 knots
Submerged endurance: 5 days (now this is not good at all)
Depth of immersion: > 200 m
Operational distance: > 3000 nautical miles
Crew: 19 members

DCNS | Andrasta
 
Type 214
Displacement: 1,690 t surfaced / 1,860 t submerged
Dimensions: length 65 m / beam 6.3 m / draught 6 m
Pressure hull: HY-80/HY-100 High Tensile steel
Armament: 8 x 533 mm torpedo tubes, 4 subharpoon-capable
Propulsion: low noise skew back propeller
Diesel engines: 2 x MTU 16V-396 (3.96 MW)
Charging generators: 2 x Piller Ntb56.40-10 0.97 MW
AIP system: 2 x HDW PEM fuel cell module BZM120 (120 kW x 2)
Electric motor: 1 x Siemens Permasyn (2.85 MW)
Speed: 12 kt surfaced / 20 kt submerged
Speed on fuel cells: 2-6 kt estimated
Range surfaced: 12,000 miles (19,300 km)
Range submerged: 420 nmi @ 8 kt (780 km @ 15 km/h)
Range on fuel cells: 1,248 nmi @ 4 kt (2,310 km @ 7 km/h)
Mission endurance: 12 weeks
Submerged without snorkelling: 3 weeks
Operating depth: more than 250 m officially, 400 m estimated
Complement: 5 officers + 22 crew
Navigation radar: SPHINX-D with 4Kw pulse and tactical LPI radar sensor [Thales Deutschland Kiel]
 
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