Pakistan's Submarine Procurement

[IceCold]

P2BP,

What of the Babur integration argument?

Will the scorpene/marlin be able to accommodate or the French willing to modify?

French were willing to modify it according to PN's needs. I don't know about Babur but PN wanted harpoons to be inducted in it rather then the french counterpart, they said they will do it but the induction cost and testing and evaluating cost will be bared my Pakistan. IMO they were not wrong in that. After all if we want to modify something then we should be willing to pay the price. The PN specification also included something about the propeller. They wanted more blades in it. It was rather a very strange request according to the french but they were ready to do it as well.
Right now french are pushing with the marlin deal to go ahead with Pakistan, i think if we play smart, there would be no problem in making the Sub capable of integrating Babur with french help. My 2 cents over it.

 

[fatman17]

JLIU;

Not Nice to see someone elaborating his understanding of Submarines without supporting his arguments with relavent Data.

But it is a normal culture


Whatever you said in response to U-209 or Scorpene and Agosta 90Bs is nothing but speculation without any proven data. Give Noise Levels of all then i will argue?... Endurance of Agosta is better than U-209 and Scorpene.


Anyways, its impossible to compare any class with other class in lots of aspects since some have advantages and some have disadvantages. It is as per the user who chooses what is required. MESMA is good for PN for logistic reasons and due to ease of Maintenance and being Not dangerous. Fuel Cells thou are better as per the tech they have their disadvantages of being dangerous and logistacially very difficult.



See U-214: Every Aspect and Issues i will Try to Cover. Since you can google around for Specifications... I leave it for you to do yourself.

U-214 for Hellinic Navy

The Hellenic Navy has apparently been suffering a number of technical issues with its first U-214, HNS Papanikolis, from Howaldtswerke Deutsche Werft (HDW). However, that's no justification to treat a submarine as beautiful as the U-214 as an aquarium for mussels and other marine organisms, as reported by a German media outlet and pictured above. For the sake of my Greek friends, I hope the Greek government gets the situation straightened out.

„Papanikolis“ kämpft mit Pocken-Besatz am Propeller - Kieler Nachrichten

p2bp - dont mess with this JLIU guy!

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Right now french are pushing with the marlin deal to go ahead with Pakistan,

Icecold,

Now that you mention it, you are correct that the PN was asking for Harpoons, and that the French had indicated that the cost would have to born by Pakistan.

On the Scorpene-Marlin offer, I was under the impression that the French had dropped the Marlin offer and were only offering the Scorpene.

 

[IceCold]

Icecold,
On the Scorpene-Marlin offer, I was under the impression that the French had dropped the Marlin offer and were only offering the Scorpene.

Well AM there was certainly some news that because Pakistan was not showing interest, french dropped the whole marlin idea and instead offered Pakistan the Scorpean.Now the problem is that IN is already using Scorpene, how likely is it for the PN to fall for the same, the chances seem to be very mute.

 

[Super Falcon]

we should go for german tech rather than french remember germans are the one who built this machine first in ww2 so they have more experience than french

 

[araz]

we should go for german tech rather than french remember germans are the one who built this machine first in ww2 so they have more experience than french

Sir
I gather you are showing a preference. Would you like to elaborate why you want to go for German tech rather than french ,as Pakistan already has french Platforms and has a history of preferring french Sub Technology. we are assembling Agustas and a new platform might mean more setup costs which could mean more money for PN.
waSalam
Araz

 

[Jliu]

JLIU;

Not Nice to see someone elaborating his understanding of Submarines without supporting his arguments with relavent Data.

But it is a normal culture

No its not normal culturefor the rest of us-only from someone like you.

Whatever you said in response to U-209 or Scorpene and Agosta 90Bs is nothing but speculation without any proven data. Give Noise Levels of all then i will argue?... Endurance of Agosta is better than U-209 and Scorpene.

We in the UDT community are not even permittted to have data on computers-only in our heads. If I actually posted the "real" specififcations on a public forum (Do remember OSINT "specs" are always generally understated by a large margin) I would be stripped of my national security clearance, arrested and spend quite a few years in prison. Being a fanboy and that only, the only penalty you get for posting crap is maybe being sent to your room or given a "warning". I have given a general level of acoustic management techniques on various ssks without specifics so if you even had half a brain to read it you would have deciphered by now that I have been ranting on about two key things that any procurement officer looks at (everything else being secondary):

-Sensor Fit
-Acoustic Sig Management

It's pretty clear the Scorpene trumps any Agosta variant in these so I don't buy your cheerleader cr_ap that endurance is a measure of anything because the AM-200 retrofitted Scorps the IN is buying can easily transit Pakistan's coastline about 57 times at that rate much less penetrate Karachi harbour. And I certainly don't have to explain to you of all people how I came by that calculation given our respective roles.

Anyways, its impossible to compare any class with other class in lots of aspects since some have advantages and some have disadvantages. It is as per the user who chooses what is required. MESMA is good for PN for logistic reasons and due to ease of Maintenance and being Not dangerous. Fuel Cells thou are better as per the tech they have their disadvantages of being dangerous and logistacially very difficult.

Whatever. Just a 'friendly' word of advice. If you ever decide to grow up and join any of the service arms don't carry on with this attitude. The men who defend Pakistan don't like these sorts of jokes and you might very well find yourself getting shot with practice rounds that turned out to be live on an exercise.

See U-214: Every Aspect and Issues i will Try to Cover. Since you can google around for Specifications... I leave it for you to do yourself.

U-214 for Hellinic Navy

The Hellenic Navy has apparently been suffering a number of technical issues with its first U-214, HNS Papanikolis, from Howaldtswerke Deutsche Werft (HDW). However, that's no justification to treat a submarine as beautiful as the U-214 as an aquarium for mussels and other marine organisms, as reported by a German media outlet and pictured above. For the sake of my Greek friends, I hope the Greek government gets the situation straightened out.

„Papanikolis“ kämpft mit Pocken-Besatz am Propeller - Kieler Nachrichten

Listen joker. I was discussing this with industry months before you even decided to post rubbish on it.

And as to the stuff you have posted below.

Operational performance negates all problems in the build phase if correctly solved.

 

[Keysersoze]

Guys can we continue this discussion without anymore personal rancour please.

 

[Jliu]

Well AM there was certainly some news that because Pakistan was not showing interest, french dropped the whole marlin idea and instead offered Pakistan the Scorpean.Now the problem is that IN is already using Scorpene, how likely is it for the PN to fall for the same, the chances seem to be very mute.

Chances are that it is remote, however it could happen given the propensity of the French to offer a good deal and the fact that the Scorpene is regarded in the industry as the best "capability for value" boat ie. it packs fair performance for the amount it costs.

Performance:
-acoustic sig management
-sensor fit
-weapons fit and integration
-hull design and maneuverability

Unfortunately for the PN in recent news the IN seems to be leasing one and then two Akula IIs, IOC 2009-10. Now while they probably will be based on the East coast the PN still must take their performance levels into account when procuring a new generation of combatants as it is the nature of SSNs to be capable of rapid underwater transits. Still, I believe that if Pakistan makes its interest known through back channels then the PN could certainly end up procuring up the Marlin as while I have heard many complain about its similarity to the Scorpene (aka. "mini Rubis") I assure you that the "mini Barracuda" is anything but.

The million dollar question: Just how much of the Barracuda is France willing to put in the Marlin?

 

[Jliu]

Guys can we continue this discussion without anymore personal rancour please.

Please excuse me for going a little hard on the guy. I come from a community where one mistake or act of idiocy can lead to the deaths of the whole crew and the loss of the entire boat so it isn't really tolerated.

 

[Super Falcon]

The U212 submarine is capable of long-distance submerged passage to the area of operation. The German Navy has ordered four of the submarines.

The Type 212 is being constructed by Howaldtswerke-Deutsche Werft GmbH (HDW) of Kiel and Thyssen Nordseewerke GmbH (TNSW) of Enden. HDW is responsible for the bow sections and TNSW for the stern section. HDW is assembling the first and third vessels, TNSW the second and fourth. U31, the first of class, was launched in March 2002 and commissioned in October 2005.

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The second, U32, was launched in December 2003 and was also commissioned in October 2005. The third, U33, was launched in September 2004 and commissioned in June 2006. U34 was launched in July 2005 and commissioned in May 2007.

"The U212 submarine is capable of long-distance submerged passage to the area of operation."In September 2006, the German Navy ordered two further U212 submarines, to be delivered in 2012/2013. The new vessels will have improved network-centric communications, combat system and sensors. Construction of the first vessel began in August 2007.

Two U212 submarines have been built by Fincantieri for the Italian Navy The first, S526 Salvatore Todaro, was launched in November 2003 and was commissioned in June 2005. The second, Scire, was launched in December 2004 and was commissioned in February 2007.

COMMAND AND WEAPONS CONTROL SYSTEM

The Type 212 is equipped with a highly integrated command and weapons control system which interfaces with sensors, weapons and navigation system. The system is based on a high-performance databus and a distributed computer system, the Basic Command & Weapons Control System (Basic CWCS) supplied by Konsberg Defence & Aerospace of Norway under the trade name MSI-90U.

The second batch of two vessels for the German Navy will be fitted with the Callisto B submarine communication system supplied by Gabler Maschinenbau.

TORPEDOES

There are six torpedo tubes in two groups of three. Type 212 is equipped with a water ram expulsion system for torpedo launch. The submarine is equipped with the DM2A4 heavyweight torpedo weapon system from Atlas Elektronik.

COUNTERMEASURES

EADS Systems & Defence Electronics and Thales Defence Ltd have been awarded a contract to develop the FL1800U electronic warfare system for the German and Italian Navies' U212 submarines. The 1800U is a submarine version of the FL1800 S-II which is in service on the Brandenburg and Bremen Class frigates.

A consortium lead by ATLAS Elektronik and ELAC are responsible for the development of the TAU 2000 torpedo countermeasures system. TAU 2000 has four launch containers, each with up to ten discharge tubes equipped with effectors.

"There are six torpedo tubes on the U212."The effectors are small underwater vehicles, similar in appearance to a torpedo. The effectors are jammers and decoys with hydrophones and acoustic emitters. Multiple effectors are deployed in order to counter torpedoes in re-attack mode.

SENSORS

The submarine is equipped with an integrated DBQS sonar system which has: cylindrical array for passive medium-frequency detection; a TAS-3 low-frequency towed array sonar; FAS-3 flank array sonar for low- / medium-frequency detection; passive ranging sonar; and hostile sonar intercept system. The active high-frequency mine detection sonar is the Atlas Elektronik MOA 3070.

The search periscope is the Zeiss Optronik SERO 14 with optical rangefinder, thermal imager and global positioning system. The Zeiss SERO 15 attack periscope is equipped with laser rangefinder.

PROPULSION

The propulsion system combines a conventional system consisting of a diesel generator with a lead acid battery, and an Air-Independent Propulsion (AIP) system, used for silent slow cruising, with a fuel cell equipped with oxygen and hydrogen storage. The system consists of nine PEM (Polymer Electrolyte Membrane) fuel cells, providing between 30kW and 50kW each.

For higher speeds, connection is made to the high-performance lead acid battery. An MTU 16V-396 diesel engine powers the generator from Piller GmbH for charging the battery installed on the lower of the two decks at the forward section of the submarine.

"The 214 submarine is a further improvement on the Type 212."The diesel generator plant is mounted on a swinging deck platform with double elastic mounts for noise and vibration isolation. The propeller motor is directly coupled to the seven-bladed screwback propeller.

TYPE 214

HDW has developed the Type 214 submarine, which is a further improvement on the Type 212. The Greek Navy has ordered three Type 214 submarines. The first, Papanikolis (S120), was built at the HDW Kiel shipyard and was launched in April 2004. It is expected to commission in 2008.

Hellenic Shipyards is building the second (Pipinos S121, launched November 2006) and third (Matrozos 122) vessels at Skaramanga, to commission in 2008-9. Hellenic Shipyards was acquired by HDW in May 2002. A fourth vessel, Katsonis (S123), was ordered by Greece in June 2002 and is expected to commission in 2010.

South Korea has also ordered three Type 214, to enter service in 2007, 2008 and 2009. These are being built by Hyundai Heavy Industries. The first, Admiral Sohn Won-il, was launched in June 2006 and commissioned in December 2007. The second, Jung Ji, was launched in June 2007 and is to be delivered in November 2008. The submarines will form the KSS2 Class. An additional six submarines may be ordered.

The Type 214 will have an increased diving depth of over 400m, due to improvements in the pressure hull materials. Hull length is 65m and displacement 1,700t. Four of the eight torpedo tubes will be capable of firing missiles.

Type 214 submarines for the Hellenic Navy will be armed with the WASS (Whitehead Alenia Sistemi Subaquei) Black Shark heavyweight torpedo. The Black Shark is a dual-purpose, wire-guided torpedo which is fitted with Astra active / passive acoustic head and a multi-target guidance and control unit incorporating a counter-countermeasures system. It has an electrical propulsion system based on a silver oxide and aluminium battery.

"The Type 214 will have an increased diving depth of over 400m."Performance of the AIP system has been increased with two Siemens PEM fuel cells which produce 120kW per module and will give the submarine an underwater endurance of two weeks. A hull shape which has been further optimised for hydrodynamic and stealth characteristics and a low-noise propeller combine to decrease the submarine's acoustic signature.

The Integrated Sensor Underwater System ISUS 90, from ATLAS Elektronik integrates all sensors, command and control functions on board the submarine. BAE Systems provides the Link 11 tactical data link. The sensor suite of the U214 submarine consists of the sonar systems, an attack periscope and an optronic mast. The submarine's electronic support measures system and global positioning system sensors are also installed on the optronic mast.

My dear friend the probleums which u are talking in this sub it was in U212 Not in U214

germans almost solved these probleums

and french if our real friends why they are selling scorpene to India


German subs are more superior than french subs thats why our navy made a good choice

we are here talking about state of art equipment for our navy not the money for our navy our navy suffered most to equip it with the better weaponry

and about the marlin it is still not tested why we waste our money which is still unknown

and u know what happen with our airforce they always wanted the americans to help them

 

[Super Falcon]

Type 214 submarines for the Hellenic Navy will be armed with the WASS (Whitehead Alenia Sistemi Subaquei) Black Shark heavyweight torpedo. The Black Shark is a dual-purpose, wire-guided torpedo which is fitted with Astra active / passive acoustic head and a multi-target guidance and control unit incorporating a counter-countermeasures system. It has an electrical propulsion system based on a silver oxide and aluminium battery.

"The Type 214 will have an increased diving depth of over 400m."Performance of the AIP system has been increased with two Siemens PEM fuel cells which produce 120kW per module and will give the submarine an underwater endurance of two weeks. A hull shape which has been further optimised for hydrodynamic and stealth characteristics and a low-noise propeller combine to decrease the submarine's acoustic signature.

The Integrated Sensor Underwater System ISUS 90, from ATLAS Elektronik integrates all sensors, command and control functions on board the submarine. BAE Systems provides the Link 11 tactical data link. The sensor suite of the U214 submarine consists of the sonar systems, an attack periscope and an optronic mast. The submarine's electronic support measures system and global positioning system sensors are also installed on the optronic mast.

My dear friend the probleums which u are talking in this sub it was in U212 Not in U214

germans almost solved these probleums

and french if our real friends why they are selling scorpene to India


German subs are more superior than french subs thats why our navy made a good choice

we are here talking about state of art equipment for our navy not the money for our navy our navy suffered most to equip it with the better weaponry

and about the marlin it is still not tested why we waste our money which is still unknown

and u know what happen with our airforce they always wanted the americans to help them

if in future french wil impose sanctions on us we should have germans to help us

 

[IceCold]

Unfortunately for the PN in recent news the IN seems to be leasing one and then two Akula IIs, IOC 2009-10. Now while they probably will be based on the East coast the PN still must take their performance levels into account when procuring a new generation of combatants as it is the nature of SSNs to be capable of rapid underwater transits. Still, I believe that if Pakistan makes its interest known through back channels then the PN could certainly end up procuring up the Marlin as while I have heard many complain about its similarity to the Scorpene (aka. "mini Rubis") I assure you that the "mini Barracuda" is anything but.

Jliu are you aware of any plans about Pakistan's procurement of a nuclear sub? I ask this because back in 2004 or 5( i'm not sure about the year) a defence analyst was quoted saying on Jeo tv that when the chinese president will visit Pakistan,president Musharraf will discuss the possibility for acquiring a nuclear sub as it is high on his agenda. He felt short of saying whether it will be a nuclear powered sub or a sub that can fire a nuclear tripped cruise missile. But no news so far. It might be for a reason because of the high secrecy that is involved with the Pakistani defense procurement system, one usually don't hear about anything at all.
This article is also pasted here somewhere in the naval thread have to dig it out though.
What do you think is it possible specially after the fact that India is acquiring nuclear subs on lease and that will only shift more the already shifted balance in India's favour.

 

[Super Falcon]

yes u are right we need a nuke subs more than a normal subs but is it our navy really going

and this years budget is too low for navy how they can go for nuke subs if they r

 

[araz]

Chances are that it is remote, however it could happen given the propensity of the French to offer a good deal and the fact that the Scorpene is regarded in the industry as the best "capability for value" boat ie. it packs fair performance for the amount it costs.

Performance:
-acoustic sig management
-sensor fit
-weapons fit and integration
-hull design and maneuverability

Unfortunately for the PN in recent news the IN seems to be leasing one and then two Akula IIs, IOC 2009-10. Now while they probably will be based on the East coast the PN still must take their performance levels into account when procuring a new generation of combatants as it is the nature of SSNs to be capable of rapid underwater transits. Still, I believe that if Pakistan makes its interest known through back channels then the PN could certainly end up procuring up the Marlin as while I have heard many complain about its similarity to the Scorpene (aka. "mini Rubis") I assure you that the "mini Barracuda" is anything but.

The million dollar question: Just how much of the Barracuda is France willing to put in the Marlin?

Jliu.
Being not savy about marine affairs,i want to ask you what do you think , realistically are PNs options. You have mentioned that U 214 may not be offered. You have also mentioned that Agosta90s are a generation behind the best platforms. Would the french resurrect the Marlin offer ? And would it be to PNs liking.
the second debate is the acquisition of a Nuclear sub by PN. My thoughts are that in the current environment , we should be relying on more deisel subs and a Nuc. Sub might be a waste of time and effort and money?
Thanks
Araz