Pakistan's Submarine Procurement

[Jliu]

Thank you for the detailed response Jliu.



That has been the strong suspicion ever since the issue was raised.

On operating the same type of SSK as the Indians, I am afraid I do not know off hand what the PN's position on that issue would be.

Not to worry, I hoped to get an answer now instead of in a few months time when I'll be stopping around the subcontinent.

 

[Jliu]

So it looks like the Indian Tender will be fought out by Germany, France, Italy and Russia.

In short:


2008/09 IN tender for 6 SSK:

DCN-Scorpene (disqualified) and Marlin (Scorpene evo-current status unknown)
TKMS-U214
Navantia-S80A (Scorpene evo)
Italian/Russian consortium-S1000 (project status unknown)
Rosborsnexport-Amur class

PN tender for 2-4 SSK (subject to cost):

DCN-Scorpene and/or Marlin
TKMS-U214 (possible)

Why is the PN submarine plan stuck ? Lack of funds ? Did this budget cater for it ?

Political issues as well as all of the above. You havn't seen inter service rivalry until you've experienced it in the Pakistani military. Except there its a tug-of-war between the Army and Air Force with the PN left picking up the scraps...

 

[Jliu]

Would IN like to operate a platform that PN already has?
the reason I ask is that PN has confirmed that it has a requirement for 3-4 platforms. If all goes well the order and subsequent delivery to Pakistan would start before India,given that In has not even initiated its proceedings. So would the reverse not hold true.
regards
Araz

To contextualise the issue, before a formal RFP in the tender for SSKs are issued for vendors to respond the buyer normally goes through back channels to inform the vendor of the need and what platform the vendor is willing to provide. Neither IN or PN have commenced the RFP stage yet and are likely preparing RFPs or in the case of the PN waiting for the Senate inquiry before proceeding with an RFP.

Now with the case of similar platforms it may not be a disadvantage for a numerically inferior UW arm such as the PN's to operate the same platforms as the IN's UW arm but I stress only if it matches the top-of-the-line platform that the IN possesses in what we analysts call "marginal capability equilibrium" ie. marginal tactical advantage with numbers. Due to the nature of UW warfare it is extremely hard for IFF, particularly visually as well as electronically so it would be nothing short of a nightmare for IAF/IN aerial ASW assets (who suffer from restrictive ROE) to IFF a U214 for example and determine whether it is IN or PN. After all nobody wishes to sink their own sub and with overtly restrictive ROE then generally benefit of doubt prevails. That said, the disadvantage would be that the adversary is aware of the limitations of your platform and if their level of TRADOC is superior then you are in a LOT of trouble. That of course assumes in the first place that the vendor would sell to both of you (which a certain country will).

PS: Something that you said puzzled me. I would understand if you did not wish to answer, but would appreciate a response.
In your response to Munir , you said that you were consulting for the PN on systems analysis. On another post you mentionedan Indian MP asking you a question on a Kilo tour for defence professionals. may i ask you in what capacity you were involved with both the navies?
Regards
Araz

Previously I served as a temporary Australian naval attache to Pakistan for a period of time. The Kilo tour was as part of the Australian delegation to INMEX 07'.

My Regards

 

[EagleEyes]

Why is the PN submarine plan stuck ? Lack of funds ? Did this budget cater for it ?

Regards

Its not stuck. It is in process.

Considering that MRCA took like 15 odd years (still not)....

Give sometime. Defense deals, especially of such importance for country like Pakistan will take time. Its been hardly an year now.

All i can say is there has been good news behind scenes which Think Tank is already discussing. However, i will be unable to give any hint.

 

[nitesh]

Its not stuck. It is in process.

Considering that MRCA took like 15 odd years (still not)....

Give sometime. Defense deals, especially of such importance for country like Pakistan will take time. Its been hardly an year now.

All i can say is there has been good news behind scenes which Think Tank is already discussing. However, i will be unable to give any hint.

Webby MRCA taken 15 years! Well I am not too sure but I think the plan was first mooted in 1998 for Mirage 2000. so it comes to 10 years now. Well correct me if I am wrong here.

 

[Munir]

There is difference between buying a few hundred jets or a few subs for the same price... You jsut want to be sure that no one gets through...


And Indian programs internal or external are delayed. In fact almost every program is delayed. You can talk about EF2000, JF17 or LCA... They all know the problem and some cannot get over that.

 

[vish]

There is difference between buying a few hundred jets or a few subs for the same price... You jsut want to be sure that no one gets through...


And Indian programs internal or external are delayed. In fact almost every program is delayed. You can talk about EF2000, JF17 or LCA... They all know the problem and some cannot get over that.

We know our problems better than you ever will; why is it that our problems are being discussed in this topic?

Perhaps you ought to look inside your own house as well.

 

[nitesh]

There is difference between buying a few hundred jets or a few subs for the same price... You jsut want to be sure that no one gets through...


And Indian programs internal or external are delayed. In fact almost every program is delayed. You can talk about EF2000, JF17 or LCA... They all know the problem and some cannot get over that.

JF-17 is an Indian program, interesting. Do you think before writing?

 

[IceCold]

We know our problems better than you ever will; why is it that our problems are being discussed in this topic?

Perhaps you ought to look inside your own house as well.

Dude why are you getting hyper over nothing? It is'nt the first time that things in context to both india and pakistan are discussed in the same thread, thanks to our level of hostility towards each other.
As for your last line yes i could tell you to do the same when i read your comments on numerous Pakistanis threads regarding what Pakistan should and should not do. Lets not go there and discuss things in a more civilized manner.

 

[fatman17]

Why is the PN submarine plan stuck ? Lack of funds ? Did this budget cater for it ?

Regards

do u know what the PN budget is other than weapons systems acquisitions, Rs, 34 billion or roughly US$ 500 mill to run the navy. incontrast PAF got Rs, 128 billion or US$ 1.83 bill and the rest went to the PA. Rs, 133 billion or US$ 1.90 bill.

priorities i guess!

 

[IceCold]

do u know what the PN budget is other than weapons systems acquisitions, Rs, 34 billion or roughly US$ 500 mill to run the navy. incontrast PAF got Rs, 128 billion or US$ 1.83 bill and the rest went to the PA. Rs, 133 billion or US$ 1.90 bill.

priorities i guess!

Sir on a side note this imo is a huge mistake army being given biggest cut. In today's changing war fare i think Navy should be given the top priority followed by the Air force. After all what can a strong army do if there is no aircover to support troops on the ground or for that matter if enemy gets successful in choking the supply lines of Pakistan.

 

[araz]

Sir on a side note this imo is a huge mistake army being given biggest cut. In today's changing war fare i think Navy should be given the top priority followed by the Air force. After all what can a strong army do if there is no aircover to support troops on the ground or for that matter if enemy gets successful in choking the supply lines of Pakistan.

Traditionally the Army has always been given the biggest cut in the Defence budget. They are also the biggest manpower employers. I dontthink y=this policy is likely to change in the near future. However, if things were better PN could be given an additional grant for platform acquisition. Our economy at the moment leaves a lot to be desired so it will be put on hold for some time. Also as there is a notification out that there is a OHP being given to PN by grant they will need 80-100 million to kit it up.
Araz

 

[Proud to be Pakistani]

The whole industrial base, TRADOC and support infrastructure is in place so it would be unusual not to progress to the next level of French designs.

That said, comparing French offerings with what is out there in the market, the Scorpene and the proposed Marlin do not exhibit a clear technological lead in any parameter over the others. In Pakistan's case, only France is willing to offer such a product for such a price....

JLIU;

Not Nice to see someone elaborating his understanding of Submarines without supporting his arguments with relavent Data.

But it is a normal culture


Whatever you said in response to U-209 or Scorpene and Agosta 90Bs is nothing but speculation without any proven data. Give Noise Levels of all then i will argue?... Endurance of Agosta is better than U-209 and Scorpene.


Anyways, its impossible to compare any class with other class in lots of aspects since some have advantages and some have disadvantages. It is as per the user who chooses what is required. MESMA is good for PN for logistic reasons and due to ease of Maintenance and being Not dangerous. Fuel Cells thou are better as per the tech they have their disadvantages of being dangerous and logistacially very difficult.



See U-214: Every Aspect and Issues i will Try to Cover. Since you can google around for Specifications... I leave it for you to do yourself.

U-214 for Hellinic Navy

The Hellenic Navy has apparently been suffering a number of technical issues with its first U-214, HNS Papanikolis, from Howaldtswerke Deutsche Werft (HDW). However, that's no justification to treat a submarine as beautiful as the U-214 as an aquarium for mussels and other marine organisms, as reported by a German media outlet and pictured above. For the sake of my Greek friends, I hope the Greek government gets the situation straightened out.

„Papanikolis“ kämpft mit Pocken-Besatz am Propeller - Kieler Nachrichten

 

[Proud to be Pakistani]

All the Scorpenes and Agostas in Service never came to such problems as witnessed in U-214 case.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

P2BP,

What of the Babur integration argument?

Will the scorpene/marlin be able to accommodate or the French willing to modify?