Pakistan's Special mission aircrafts Information Pool

[Falcon26]

Why? Control.

In Pakistan, if you want to make any argument for indigenization, it must center on the idea of control.

Folks tried for decades to talk about industrial development, the economy, etc, and all that flew over the heads of our leaders in the military and government alike.

But control is a whole other issue.

This idea that now China can openly say, "oh we don't feel comfortable sharing our source codes" is total BS for the PAF. For now, it's directed against Western subsystems, but later, it could be against Pakistani systems too.

With a Pakistani AESA radar model in the works, the Chinese and Europeans can say "no" to integrating their stuff onto it. However, if they deny us a certain kind of missile, and then we develop said missile, our own radar would allow us to operationalize our capability.

As we start embarking on supersonic or ramjet-based weapons, this control is going to be critical, especially when long-range/stand-off-range systems are involved (which can have a strategic impact).

Moreover, I don't think we'll export our radar models, not until we master semiconductor technology some many decades into the future. We wouldn't want anyone else to know what we're carrying in our own jets, and though we could make an export variant, there's a risk (e.g., that one common factor) there too.

Do you think Malaysia could help with semiconductor technology seeing that its one of the most prolific manufacturers of semiconductors

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Do you think Malaysia could help with semiconductor technology seeing that its one of the most prolific manufacturers of semiconductors

The issue with critical technology like this is that the US will step in and stop it. Malaysia and Indonesia have so much more to lose by breaking the rules since they heavily rely on FDI and exports.

In an ironic way, Pakistan is shielded (at the cost of losing out on the trade balancing and fortune) in this regard, so it can skirt the rules in some areas (e.g., our nuclear program). One option is to pick up very old semiconductor fab plants, hire experts from around the world who know the new tech, and try advancing from there.

Even that effort might get railroaded by the US, if not through blocking sales, then perhaps by manipulating our own internal processes to kill the project at infancy. Anecdotally, I heard someone talk about a narrative where Pakistan was in the process of getting a US electronics manufacturing deal (involving fab tech), but then some maulvis randomly started protesting for some reason, and then the US investor backed out...???

Now, if we look at what our esteemed lawyers are up to or the lousy, trash job the PML-N did at negotiating CPEC, you can see how things can go sideways in our country.

If you master semiconductors, then forget radars, you could open the doors to a lot of interesting -- and wildly lucrative -- areas. It's a game changer. So, if you somehow get past the micro-extinction events that occur in Pakistan every 6 months and get to the goal, it's a massive payoff.

 

[Caprxl]

This idea that now China can openly say, "oh we don't feel comfortable sharing our source codes" is total BS for the PAF.

Totally agree, never had this thought in mind. May be somehow it was implied through my post but never meant that.

it's always better to start off at some point and be independent,

As we start embarking on supersonic or ramjet-based weapons, this control is going to be critical, especially when long-range/stand-off-range systems are involved (which can have a strategic impact).

Amen to the bold brother, and therefore the reason to develope our own radar model.

Lastly, about export, I agree to certain extent with your point but if not in near to mid term, I still see light at some point in future of export variants being offered. Never mind , endless possibilities, need of the hour is to take these first steps and in the correct direction.

 

[Falcon26]

The issue with critical technology like this is that the US will step in and stop it. Malaysia and Indonesia have so much more to lose by breaking the rules since they heavily rely on FDI and exports.

In an ironic way, Pakistan is shielded (at the cost of losing out on the trade balancing and fortune) in this regard, so it can skirt the rules in some areas (e.g., our nuclear program). One option is to pick up very old semiconductor fab plants, hire experts from around the world who know the new tech, and try advancing from there.

Even that effort might get railroaded by the US, if not through blocking sales, then perhaps by manipulating our own internal processes to kill the project at infancy. Anecdotally, I heard someone talk about a narrative where Pakistan was in the process of getting a US electronics manufacturing deal (involving fab tech), but then some maulvis randomly started protesting for some reason, and then the US investor backed out...???

Now, if we look at what our esteemed lawyers are up to or the lousy, trash job the PML-N did at negotiating CPEC, you can see how things can go sideways in our country.

If you master semiconductors, then forget radars, you could open the doors to a lot of interesting -- and wildly lucrative -- areas. It's a game changer. So, if you somehow get past the micro-extinction events that occur in Pakistan every 6 months and get to the goal, it's a massive payoff.

very insightful post. So the export of semiconductors are controlled? Malaysia doesn’t own the rights to their technology?

sorry for the elementary questions

 

[StructE]

The issue with critical technology like this is that the US will step in and stop it. Malaysia and Indonesia have so much more to lose by breaking the rules since they heavily rely on FDI and exports.

In an ironic way, Pakistan is shielded (at the cost of losing out on the trade balancing and fortune) in this regard, so it can skirt the rules in some areas (e.g., our nuclear program). One option is to pick up very old semiconductor fab plants, hire experts from around the world who know the new tech, and try advancing from there.

Even that effort might get railroaded by the US, if not through blocking sales, then perhaps by manipulating our own internal processes to kill the project at infancy. Anecdotally, I heard someone talk about a narrative where Pakistan was in the process of getting a US electronics manufacturing deal (involving fab tech), but then some maulvis randomly started protesting for some reason, and then the US investor backed out...???

Now, if we look at what our esteemed lawyers are up to or the lousy, trash job the PML-N did at negotiating CPEC, you can see how things can go sideways in our country.

If you master semiconductors, then forget radars, you could open the doors to a lot of interesting -- and wildly lucrative -- areas. It's a game changer. So, if you somehow get past the micro-extinction events that occur in Pakistan every 6 months and get to the goal, it's a massive payoff.

While mastering semiconductor will put any nation on solid feet, silicon technology changes at much faster pace and keeping up with it will be cost prohibitive for Pakistan. In my opinion if Pakistan can start producing lower end mass market devices with imported chips, it will produce skill and capacity which can be scaled under institutions like Kamra and Nescom.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Totally agree, never had this thought in mind. May be somehow it was implied through my post but never meant that.

it's always better to start off at some point and be independent,



Amen to the bold brother, and therefore the reason to develope our own radar model.

Lastly, about export, I agree to certain extent with your point but if not in near to mid term, I still see light at some point in future of export variants being offered. Never mind , endless possibilities, need of the hour is to take these first steps and in the correct direction.

In terms of exports, I think -- and this wasn't stated by our armed forces at any point -- we're just not too thrilled about selling arms overseas. It's a chore, and the margins tend to get thinner as buyers demand concessions such as offsets, ToT, etc. Plus, there are moral concerns along the way too.

It wouldn't surprise me if, in the long-term, the export play is actually in dual-use and major civilian applications. In this case, we could see spin-offs of HIT, PAC and KSEW (hopefully in different cities) manufacture heavy commercial vehicles, airliners, and tankers for commercial use, while the military stuff remains focused on serving local needs.

So, this is one reason why I'd keep an eye on the Sukhoi SuperJet 100 talk. If PIA ends up as the lead overseas user of this aircraft, we could see PAC make a play at significant co-production and final assembly. Remember, the previous Chairman of PAC is heading up PIA.

very insightful post. So the export of semiconductors are controlled? Malaysia doesn’t own the rights to their technology?

sorry for the elementary questions

It's controlled either through explicit export permits, or through political pressure.

While mastering semiconductor will put any nation on solid feet, silicon technology changes at much faster pace and keeping up with it will be cost prohibitive for Pakistan. In my opinion if Pakistan can start producing lower end mass market devices with imported chips, it will produce skill and capacity which can be scaled under institutions like Kamra and Nescom.

Yield and quality control is a huge challenge as well. You either do exceptionally well at it, or you fail so badly that you could end up risking hundreds of millions of dollars on a lemon.

 

[Caprxl]

It wouldn't surprise me if, in the long-term, the export play is actually in dual-use and major civilian applications. In this case, we could see spin-offs of HIT, PAC and KSEW (hopefully in different cities) manufacture heavy commercial vehicles, airliners, and tankers for commercial use, while the military stuff remains focused on serving local needs.

I think we found the common ground, credit is given to you that you just picked the point which I was struggling to reach. Serves us best, the sole purpose for my export reason was when we have the ability why let it go and not make $, it's even better the civilian way, keeps us off the radar as well and also some moral codes you mentioned.

 

[Haris Ali2140]

Does anyone has any info on this C130 ISR???
@Quwa @Dazzler @Signalian @airomerix

 

[airomerix]

View attachment 600115

Does anyone has any info on this C130 ISR???
@Quwa @Dazzler @Signalian @airomerix

We do have 'X' number C-130's with ISR mounted on the chin. They have a full glass cockpit (almost similar to later H models). They keep a vigils eye on the eastern and western borders. Once these boys spot something, they direct ground forces to the designated area to take care of it.

 

[Haris Ali2140]

We do have 'X' number C-130's with ISR mounted on the chin. They have a full glass cockpit (almost similar to later H models). They keep a vigils eye on the eastern and western borders. Once these boys spot something, they direct ground forces to the designated area to take care of it.

Any news on ELINT/SIGNET capabilities and assets???

 

[Pakistani Fighter]

We do have 'X' number C-130's with ISR mounted on the chin. They have a full glass cockpit (almost similar to later H models). They keep a vigils eye on the eastern and western borders. Once these boys spot something, they direct ground forces to the designated area to take care of it.

Like what ZDK 3s and Erieyes do?

 

[airomerix]

Any news on ELINT/SIGNET capabilities and assets???

It's classified. We have assets which specialize in this role. Thats all you we need to know. Where they are, how many they are, what can they do is off limits.

Like what ZDK 3s and Erieyes do?

Not really. ZDK and Erieye are airborne early warner platforms. They cant show us militants cutting our fences on western borders. In simpler words, C-130's with ISR probes operate in a similar fashion to an AC-130 Spectre minus the weapons.

Fun fact:

During operation Rah-e-Rast, we ALMOST got AC-130 Gunships from US. The deal was done. However, some lobbies in DC werent very happy about it. And they were successful.

 

[Pakistani Fighter]

During operation Rah-e-Rast, we ALMOST got AC-130 Gunships from US. The deal was done. However, some lobbies in DC werent very happy about it. And they were successful.

Oh. Do we need more C 130s?

It's classified. We have assets which specialize in this role. Thats all you we need to know. Where they are, how many they are, what can they do is off limits.

Do DA 20 fall in this category?

 

[Zephyrus]

Just one of the ISR herks
They usually fly out of nur khan

There's these other kind of herkies that standout as well, check out the antennae on the ventral side.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

It's classified. We have assets which specialize in this role. Thats all you we need to know. Where they are, how many they are, what can they do is off limits.




Not really. ZDK and Erieye are airborne early warner platforms. They cant show us militants cutting our fences on western borders. In simpler words, C-130's with ISR probes operate in a similar fashion to an AC-130 Spectre minus the weapons.

Fun fact:

During operation Rah-e-Rast, we ALMOST got AC-130 Gunships from US. The deal was done. However, some lobbies in DC werent very happy about it. And they were successful.

Is there a reason why the PAF (or PA) didn't push for re-purposing the CN235 or C295 as a COIN/CT support asset? So, for example, there are packages on the market that could fit the CN235/C295 with an EO/IR turret as well as 27 mm cannon and ATGMs, rockets and PGBs. The only real issue (to not getting those) I can think of is that they didn not offer enough firepower...??