Pakistan's Service Rifle (G-3, Type-56) Replacement Competition 2016.

[fitpOsitive]

France tested FN SCAR L mainly not FN SCAR H buy the way a friend contacted some senior Army Guys they said money is not the issue and earlier results were supposed to be announced in July but now they may go for one more winter trials and debate is also taking place about caliber. Question is between 7.62 X 51 and 7.62 X 39.
@Arsalan @The Eagle


Price is not the issue and yes everything we would buy weather Assault Rifle or Tank or IFV or Drone mostly would be with TOT. I am also hearing about Pakistan testing various future soldier programs starting from RATNIK 3. The kits will arrive soon for trials.

Is it final that Pakistan is not buying any AK series gun?

 

[Irfan Baloch]

I have been told and in fact assured that some of these trials and evaluations that gets our people all excited and “claiming” all sorts of things are just stunts for political pressure building and alliances etc. There might not be much happening any time soon (like in months or even a year or so). We need to understand that everything we praise or get a picture taken with it is not what we are SURE to buy. There are interests for reasons other than “buying” when it comes to military hardware and technology.

I agree and wont rule out the possibility of a continuing with G3 with few cosmetic changes and minor modifications to make it "current".

 

[Zarvan]

I agree and wont rule out the possibility of a continuing with G3 with few cosmetic changes and minor modifications to make it "current".

Every modification done on G3 is making it more heavy and thus making it impossible to be carried by soldier. The current G3M is half kg heavier than previous models and @fitpOsitive no AK series can also come it depends on who win trials. My information says SCAR is on top but you never know what happens

 

[The Eagle]

France tested FN SCAR L mainly not FN SCAR H buy the way a friend contacted some senior Army Guys they said money is not the issue and earlier results were supposed to be announced in July but now they may go for one more winter trials and debate is also taking place about caliber. Question is between 7.62 X 51 and 7.62 X 39.
@Arsalan @The Eagle


Price is not the issue and yes everything we would buy weather Assault Rifle or Tank or IFV or Drone mostly would be with TOT. I am also hearing about Pakistan testing various future soldier programs starting from RATNIK 3. The kits will arrive soon for trials.

Zarvan Bhai, when I said price, it was meant to be in the long run and how it is going to cost. One thing for sure, it is not just related to the price tag of the rifle alone but it is more about many other factors like ToT, cost in long run, life of Rifle and benefits through in house production etc as well. I am not denying the performance of SCAR but that would be only about the fire power, accuracy but what we are emphasizing is many other things attached to the package that need to be beneficial. You might be aware of up-gradation of POF up-to NATO Standard w.r.t machinery etc so what if we come up with something after necessary alterations to the already in-use weapon while the benchmark would be the tested rifles. Everything is possible and no need to spend all that precious money only for the beauty of it rather that money can give us more than this purchase from somewhere else. Money is not an issue but IMO, I wouldn't be throwing it the way which doesn't make any sense.

and Kickbacks / filling up the deep pockets of Generals (you hear it right)

Sir Ji, in this subject alone, personally, am not afraid of bigger % this time (like past) under the supervision of RS though possibility cannot be ruled-out, I agree.

 

[Zarvan]

Zarvan Bhai, when I said price, it was meant to be in the long run and how it is going to cost. One thing for sure, it is not just related to the price tag of the rifle alone but it is more about many other factors like ToT, cost in long run, life of Rifle and benefits through in house production etc as well. I am not denying the performance of SCAR but that would be only about the fire power, accuracy but what we are emphasizing is many other things attached to the package that need to be beneficial. You might be aware of up-gradation of POF up-to NATO Standard w.r.t machinery etc so what if we come up with something after necessary alterations to the already in-use weapon while the benchmark would be the tested rifles. Everything is possible and no need to spend all that precious money only for the beauty of it rather that money can give us more than this purchase from somewhere else. Money is not an issue but IMO, I wouldn't be throwing it the way which doesn't make any sense.

I know about cost in the long run and Army knows it more than me and after calculating every possible scenario only than trials were started and yes TOT is must feature without that no weapon will come. And POF is being massively upgraded and will be further upgraded in near future

 

[Vergennes]

@Zarvan Bhai you may like to read, found it interesting.

BREAKING: Heckler & Koch CONFIRMED Winner of French AIF Rifle Contract; FN to Appeal French Decision

@balixd @Arsalan @others

Since FN lost out on in France, I imagine Pakistan would have a little more leverage in requesting lucrative commercial offsets and valuable technology transfer.

This is going to be interesting through this aspect, indeed because FN would never wish to loose another market like this that too for the bigger order but it would be interesting if FN agreed to some kind of transfer etc. May be our observers may take out the opportunity.
@Zarvan bhai one thing for sure, Rifle is not going to be selected only on basis of rounds fired in different atmosphere and weather but it has to do more with Price and ToT and other parameters/benefits supporting our budget.

BUT BUT BUT!!!!!!!! ........ i thought SCAR was best of the best and acing at all the tests --- how could it loose to HK???

France tested FN SCAR L mainly not FN SCAR H buy the way a friend contacted some senior Army Guys they said money is not the issue and earlier results were supposed to be announced in July but now they may go for one more winter trials and debate is also taking place about caliber. Question is between 7.62 X 51 and 7.62 X 39.
@Arsalan @The Eagle


Price is not the issue and yes everything we would buy weather Assault Rifle or Tank or IFV or Drone mostly would be with TOT. I am also hearing about Pakistan testing various future soldier programs starting from RATNIK 3. The kits will arrive soon for trials.

The HK's victory is suspended until a decision is made about FN's appeal. We would know by the begining of the next week.
The HK416 already used by french air force commandos,mostly by the CPA,and the standard rifle for most (if not all) the french special forces.

Widely used by the special forces in the recent overseas operations,it received a lot of positive feedbacks from the operators where it was used in though environments and conditions. (I guess it was important.)
I have learned that some special units switched from the Scar H to the HK416 because it had recurrent defects and some parts were very fragile and easily breakable.

Right,it as the Scar L that was tested.

It is told in the ministry of defence that the HK416 showed better performances and was superior than all the other competitors (SCAR,VHS-2,MCX,ARX160). It is even told that it's the "rolls royce" of the rifles.
It is again told,that H&K made an effort about the price.

Let's see if FN wins the appeal and what were the arguments they used.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Every modification done on G3 is making it more heavy and thus making it impossible to be carried by soldier. The current G3M is half kg heavier than previous models and @fitpOsitive no AK series can also come it depends on who win trials. My information says SCAR is on top but you never know what happens

brother I meant it other way round (making it lighter but effective)
like use of composites. and replacement of different components with lighter but durable materials for say barrel, trigger group breach, magazine etc. I am not advocating just add ons for the sake of looking current but a reasonable compromise between existing gun and future needs and meet in the middle.

I suspect a lot of corruption and commissions involved in it which might be seeing a tug of war between the decision makers who have priority over self interest and effective weapon .. dont forget that our military is also pooled from same faithful people of Pakistan who see lying and deceit as a norm.

 

[fitpOsitive]

Every modification done on G3 is making it more heavy and thus making it impossible to be carried by soldier. The current G3M is half kg heavier than previous models and @fitpOsitive no AK series can also come it depends on who win trials. My information says SCAR is on top but you never know what happens

AK are becoming better at faster pace. Its my feeling that AKs are better than other as far as reliability, availability and mass production issues are concern. Rest lies in the hand of decision makers and testing personnel.

 

[Zarvan]

AK are becoming better at faster pace. Its my feeling that AKs are better than other as far as reliability, availability and mass production issues are concern. Rest lies in the hand of decision makers and testing personnel.

New AK Guns are changing the things for sure question is will the enter trials

 

[The Eagle]

I suspect a lot of corruption and commissions involved in it which might be seeing a tug of war between the decision makers who have priority over self interest and effective weapon .. dont forget that our military is also pooled from same faithful people of Pakistan who see lying and deceit as a norm.

Sir, hopefully in the end, such tussle would be favoring us though pushing for more trials through this winter as well means no decision during tenure of RS.

 

[Arsalan]

@Arsalan @balixd @RAMPAGE I have checked their profiles Nusherwan father is Brigadier and Osama also looks like son of some Army Officer so any news guys. Personally I have messaged them waiting for their answer

The brigadier may want to keep his kids on a tighter leash, that is all i have to say.

Also you are well aware of my views on such "sources" or even on calling such goons as "sources"
Twitter and Facebook kids are the opposite of reliable!

I talked to the guy and realized despite being from Army family guy has no clue on trials

But since he is a kid of some army official so whatever he says can be quoted as official stance of military, LOLZ!

Price is not the issue and yes everything we would buy weather Assault Rifle or Tank or IFV or Drone mostly would be with TOT. I am also hearing about Pakistan testing various future soldier programs starting from RATNIK 3. The kits will arrive soon for trials.

I love it when you say money is not an issue,,, it makes me feel filthy rich aand i start to smell like Oil!!
I am not sure if i should be happy or sad about that fact it is just a "pani ka bulbulla"

 

[Zarvan]

The brigadier may want to keep his kids on a tighter leash, that is all i have to say.

Also you are well aware of my views on such "sources" or even on calling such goons as "sources"
Twitter and Facebook kids are the opposite of reliable!


But since he is a kid of some army official so whatever he says can be quoted as official stance of military, LOLZ!


I love it when you say money is not an issue,,, it makes me feel filthy rich aand i start to smell like Oil!!
I am not sure if i should be happy or sad about that fact it is just a "pani ka bulbulla"

This is what senior Army Guys said. They said we we calculated everything and we knew what we are going for. They didn't woke up one day and thought HEY !!!! lets go for Gun trials and next week they were having trials. They studied and calculated everything before starting trials. Also initially 14 Rifles wanted to come they chose 5 one of them was SCAR and other was BERRETTA ARX 200 they knew from day one that these are not cheap Guns they had the idea what would be the long term cost and even if we get them with TOT. So Army know what are they doing and they had arranged the money before starting trials. It's childish on your part that if you think than out of no where Army chose to have trials and they didn't calculated the costs and didn't do the well thorough research before starting trials.

 

[Army research]

Maybe they could be testing and prolonging tests on purpose so they can copy the design ? If you ce to think of our analysts ,gun makers could get their hands all over these change a few things give it a different name say pk 431 and make a new rifle ? Any ideas

 

[Arsalan]

I agree and wont rule out the possibility of a continuing with G3 with few cosmetic changes and minor modifications to make it "current".

Theoretically, you are quite right. We may come up against better ways to spend the money and that would be the end of all this. However, this is quite unlikely. I am quite sure that we are not going to see some guns being inducted. I have tried to explain (not to much avail) that how the guns are likely to be inducted in batches. The initial purchase will likely be of a limited number and then we will DECIDE whether to build on that or not, meaning, we may even decide NOT TO!! However i also think that in news, it will be leaked as "Pakistan selects a NEW replacement gun for WHOLE army...." that wont be the case in reality. The reason for this batch wise induction is mainly that we will like to use these in actual war situation. Also this will give us a better insight into the gun that we will be making, a chance to study and learn all the lessons from it. As per my discussion with a few people who are relevant in all this, there still is some support for a local gun. How influential that can be is something only time can tell. But there sure are people in key posts that still think about a local design. Anyway, to put this simply and try to explain this once again, with hope of getting out fan boys realize what is actually happening rather then believing in twitter kids, there will be different parts and steps of evaluation process, field trials are just one of them. A decision will be made based on evaluation in all these steps. The decision may also be classified as a "primary selection" with thousands of guns bought, made, studied and used by the forces and the main decision to continue with the same only to come afterwards.

This is what senior Army Guys said. They said we we calculated everything and we knew what we are going for. They didn't woke up one day and thought HEY !!!! lets go for Gun trials and next week they were having trials. They studied and calculated everything before starting trials. Also initially 14 Rifles wanted to come they chose 5 one of them was SCAR and other was BERRETTA ARX 200 they knew from day one that these are not cheap Guns they had the idea what would be the long term cost and even if we get them with TOT. So Army know what are they doing and they had arranged the money before starting trials. It's childish on your part that if you think than out of no where Army chose to have trials and they didn't calculated the costs and didn't do the well thorough research before starting trials.

Lolz,
what senior army guy? Was his son acting as his correspondent telling you what papa said at evening tea?

Also dear, NEVER forget that this is not like our grocery shopping. There are unforeseen expenditures, there are emergencies, there are priorities that may keep on changing depending on situation. Finding a replacement of gun might be our priority today however if something have changed, that may make a fighter jet or a tank or SPH more important and we will suddenly be more focused on that. Plus by cost, please try to understand that it is not the unit cost people are talking about. The cost of doing business with a certain group/country can be higher than some other. That too keep on changing depending on you relations, geo-politics and what not. Please try and understand that "MONEY is always relvant" and is always an issue and will ALWAYS be a factor effecting the decision. Again, IT IS NOT THE UNIT cost but the cost of the business deal! What offer one brings to the table will always have a significant weight!

 

[Zarvan]

Theoretically, you are quite right. We may come up against better ways to spend the money and that would be the end of all this. However, this is quite unlikely. I am quite sure that we are not going to see some guns being inducted. I have tried to explain (not to much avail) that how the guns are likely to be inducted in batches. The initial purchase will likely be of a limited number and then we will DECIDE whether to build on that or not, meaning, we may even decide NOT TO!! However i also think that in news, it will be leaked as "Pakistan selects a NEW replacement gun for WHOLE army...." that wont be the case in reality. The reason for this batch wise induction is mainly that we will like to use these in actual war situation. Also this will give us a better insight into the gun that we will be making, a chance to study and learn all the lessons from it. As per my discussion with a few people who are relevant in all this, there still is some support for a local gun. How influential that can be is something only time can tell. But there sure are people in key posts that still think about a local design. Anyway, to put this simply and try to explain this once again, with hope of getting out fan boys realize what is actually happening rather then believing in twitter kids, there will be different parts and steps of evaluation process, field trials are just one of them. A decision will be made based on evaluation in all these steps. The decision may also be classified as a "primary selection" with thousands of guns bought, made, studied and used by the forces and the main decision to continue with the same only to come afterwards.


Lolz,
what senior army guy? Was his son acting as his correspondent telling you what papa said at evening tea?

Also dear, NEVER forget that this is not like our grocery shopping. There are unforeseen expenditures, there are emergencies, there are priorities that may keep on changing depending on situation. Finding a replacement of gun might be our priority today however if something have changed, that may make a fighter jet or a tank or SPH more important and we will suddenly be more focused on that. Plus by cost, please try to understand that it is not the unit cost people are talking about. The cost of doing business with a certain group/country can be higher than some other. That too keep on changing depending on you relations, geo-politics and what not. Please try and understand that "MONEY is always relvant" and is always an issue and will ALWAYS be a factor effecting the decision. Again, IT IS NOT THE UNIT cost but the cost of the business deal! What offer one brings to the table will always have a significant weight!

I have a friend who talked to officers including a Brigadier and a Colonel who are involved in Trials. They are credible as is my friend. Friend is not some childish fanboy and as for that HK-417 well I talked to that guy turns out post is one and a half year old and that guy was wrong for sure but I am right on spot here. The rifles are going for one more winter and may be new AK-15 may also join rifle trials and few other rifles