Pakistan's role remarkable in reducing violence: Indian Kashmir CM

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Yeah and Musharraf personally told you that, right? Don't bring in unsubstantiated allegations. Quote a report blaming India for the failure of dialog pre-Mumbai if you can find it. Any one, even from a Pakistani source.

If Indian statements are to be believed, Musharraf getting kicked out of power stalled the dialog and the Mumbai massacre ended it.

What does Musharraf have to do with this? India is the one that backed out - Steven Coll, who broke the back-channel diplomacy story pointed out that India chose backed out after the judicial crises in Pakistan.

Beyond that see my response to halaku.

 

[Halaku Khan]

The issue over Kasab was a matter of principle - Pakistan could not merely accept whatever India said without any evidence.

This is preposterous. What is the great principle in telling lies when you already knew the facts? You are telling me that newspaper reporters could track down Kasab's parents but ISI had no clue? I'm afraid the desparate cover up attempts do indeed nail Pakistan's complicty.

 

[Halaku Khan]

That is incorrect, this was back-channel diplomacy after all, not official negotiations towards a final resolution, The two major contenders for government (the PPP and PML-N) were on record as calling for normalization and engaging in dialog with India, so we had the military establishment and all major political parties on board - there was no reason to not continue the dialog, or restart it after the elections.

We saw neither.

The Mumbai atrocity was perpertrated within a couple of months of Zardari's inauguration. India was in fact looking forward to resuming the dialogue.

In any case, since Pakistan is so sincere in its fight against terrorism, you should be punishing the Mumbai culprits on a priority basis. I fail to see why you don't want to do that.

 

[Halaku Khan]

What does Musharraf have to do with this? India is the one that backed out - Steven Coll, who broke the back-channel diplomacy story pointed out that India chose backed out after the judicial crises in Pakistan.

Even if that's true its very understandable. A credible interlocutor is needed. Talking to Musharraf then would have been like talking to Zardari while the "Long March" protests were raging.

 

[afriend]

Indian views are slightly different.

First when the relations were getting peaceful, there was the parliament attack. Next time when Indian PM went to Pakistan and Pakistan reciprocated, there was Kargil. The third time, while back channel diplomacy happened, there was the Mumbai attacks.

This gave rise to the impression that Pakistan does not speak with one voice - in the sense that Pakistan government cannot speak for all of its people.

Now with the movement against terror in Pakistan, India really has a reason to trust Pakistan. But then the elections are on and once elections are done with, we need some time to do "horse trading", bribing MP's, forming political alliances and a government. Unless bureaucrats are running the show, the dialogs will be delayed for a while more in my opinion.

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We are thankful that terrorism has reduced , but in my opinion, stopping terrorist movement across borders is not "giving India something". If I were a thief and then stopped stealing, can I claim "I gave something to the society?". Or in a more appropriate argument, If I kept a dog that kept shitting on my neighbours yard, and finally I locked up the dog, can I expect the neighbour to pay me for that ?

Not killing civilians is something that every civilized nation is required to do. Otherwise, India could some terrorists to Pakistan and then stop it and claim "we gave Pakistan something". That sort of argument legitimizes terrorism as a state policy.

It is a good thing that Pakistan has done and sets the stage for talks.As long as moderates are in power in India, I am hopeful.

I absolutely agree with you., the credibility to resolve the issues in a peaceful manner is lacking in pakistani government. You have multiple instances.. intercepts of pakistani institutional involvement in supporting terrorists or cross border misadventure..!! However if the GOP wants to gain some credibilty they ahve to crush the taliban and make sure 26/11 culprits are punished, and it doesnt come by showing some one or two instances of WOT.. but a continous adhrence to the state policy of no compromise with terrorists..!!! Flip flop in kasabs case.. peace deal with taliban... all these shows the lack of direction of government of pakistan..!!!

 

[notsuperstitious]

This is preposterous. What is the great principle in telling lies when you already knew the facts? You are telling me that newspaper reporters could track down Kasab's parents but ISI had no clue? I'm afraid the desparate cover up attempts do indeed nail Pakistan's complicty.

Absolutely. Zardari going on BBC World and claimng Kasab is not pakistani, days after Pakistani media talked to his parents was awesome. The parents were duely 'disappeared' (sic) later(where are they???). Had the national security advisor not spilled the beans (one and a half months after the attacks) and got fired, we don't know how long this cover up would have lasted.

I'm amazed. Pakistan, if wants to be taken seriously, needs to look at its behaviour (A Q Khan coverup anyone?). Ask an independent person (i'm indian) and they'll tell you what confidence they have in what pakistan says.

 

[Nemesis]

And as I pointed out this was not the only incident of India backing out at the last minute - all this points to some strong anti-Pakistan/anti-normalization sections in the Indian establishment.

Like Kargil? Or the Parliament attacks? You're acting like Pakistan is holier than thou, when in fact Pakistan is more to blame than India for the lack of normalization between India and Pakistan.

Look i understand what you're saying. But there is a lack of trust between India and Pakistan, How can we start negotiating six months after the Mumbai attacks when the culprits of Mumbai havent been brought to book. Why should India negotiate when your territory is constantly being used to launch attacks on India. Unless these attacks stop, what would be the point of the peace deal?

I appreciate that Pakistan is facing a major terrorism problem, so the GOP can't guarantee anything, but that is the point, unless you solve the terrorism problem there can be no negotiation, as it will stop as soon as another Mumbai style terrorist attack occurs.

 

[IceCold]

look does it matter what Omar Abdullah has to say, afterall it only matters if India has something like wise. Moreover because its elections season in India and somebody back mentioned about horse trading after that, i too agree with the assessment about forgetting the dialouge session for a long long time.

On a side note, do we really need one to go on after all its just a waste of time and valuable resources. Kashmir isn't going anywhere, India isn't backing out, so what in the hell will we achieve starting dialogue.

 

[dabong1]

I have been saying from day one........no matter what pakistan does india will always come out with a new excuse.
Stop the movement of fighters and then we can talk.......hand over every leader involved in the kashmir war then we can talk........let indian goods move freely into pakistan onwards to afganistan then we can talk......give then ibraheem dawood on a plate then the indians will talk..ect ect.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

This is preposterous. What is the great principle in telling lies when you already knew the facts? You are telling me that newspaper reporters could track down Kasab's parents but ISI had no clue? I'm afraid the desparate cover up attempts do indeed nail Pakistan's complicty.

What is preposterous is arguing that a State should accept facts based on media reports.

What nonsense. Pakistan's position was perfectly legitimate, that India send it evidence on Kasab and the others indicating their links to Pakistan before it officially concluded anything.

The party that was behaving irrationally and 'delaying' was the GoI, because it was too busy scapegoating the Pakistani state to score political points at home and abroad.

The Mumbai atrocity was perpertrated within a couple of months of Zardari's inauguration. India was in fact looking forward to resuming the dialogue.

It was perpetrated almost a year after the Gillani government took over - there was plenty of time to restart dialog with the new government - and you ignore the point that all three major players - military establishment , PPP, PML-N were on board with normalization.

Under your logic it may be impossible to engage with India give a coalition government at the center whose components may withdraw support at any time over one issue or another.

Negotiations on issues such as Kashmri need to have broad support from all stakeholders in the establishment since any ratification of agreements out of such dialog will require all of them to sign off. This should in fact allow for continuity in dialog regardless of changes in government.

In any case, since Pakistan is so sincere in its fight against terrorism, you should be punishing the Mumbai culprits on a priority basis. I fail to see why you don't want to do that.

Before accusing Pakistan of 'not acting on a priority basis', let me know how far that open and shut case of Kasab has progressed.

 

[paritosh]

the best solution to the kashmiri problem is to rename the state of jammu and kashmir to something like 'Azad Kashmir' and omar should be called the Pm...for as it is no non kashmiri can purchase land in kashmir...

 

[haawk]

Oh please, don't look at it with those gloomy glasses.
Look at it from a different perspective, try a non-American one, or not an anti-Pakistani one, and maybe then we'll take your posts credible.
Perhaps have a name change too, it adds an extra plus to your intelligence, Rabbit.Rabbit.

now you are telling him to view the stuff with your eyes ..... why dont you see what other people think about the matter than asking every one to see through your eyes.
if every one has to see every thing from your perspective , there is no reason why we'll have a discussion at all .

say a guys murders 3 people a day , now he kills only 2 people a day , does that mean that he has become a saint , and the we should embrace him for his nobel gesture .
if see this through your eyes, i would have to give that murderer a nobel peace prize for hs gracious task of sparing a life per day

 

[Halaku Khan]

What is preposterous is arguing that a State should accept facts based on media reports.

What nonsense. Pakistan's position was perfectly legitimate, that India send it evidence on Kasab and the others indicating their links to Pakistan before it officially concluded anything.

No, Pakistan had officially concluded Kasab was not Pakistani, even though they very well knew he was. Look at a Pakistani source: Kasab is not a Pakistani: Pak high commissioner - GEO.tv . Also see interviews by Zardari to international media. All lies. Not to mention the frantic activity by ISI agents in Faridkot to wipe out all traces of Kasab's family. That's what proves complicity.

It was perpetrated almost a year after the Gillani government took over - there was plenty of time to restart dialog with the new government - and you ignore the point that all three major players - military establishment , PPP, PML-N were on board with normalization.

There was a lot of chaos in Pakistan at that time, while Musharraf was going through a slow motion collapse. If all stake holders had come together to tell India that Gillani was the person to talk to, then I'm sure the discussions could have continued from where Musharraf left off. Even today, its not clear who's the guy to talk to in Pakistan.

Before accusing Pakistan of 'not acting on a priority basis', let me know how far that open and shut case of Kasab has progressed.

Proceeding quite well, thanks. IMHO discussions can restart after charges are filed against the LeT brass, and action taken against terrorist activities such as those that are going on at Masood Azhar's brother's estate.

Pakistan should take responsibility for preventing militant activity on its soil targeting J&K or other parts of India. If Pakistan cannot undertake that responsibility, then it should let others do the requisite cleaning up.

A road map can be decided on through discussions, but it will have to include milestones such as sentencing of the Mumbai culprits. Non-achievement of milestones will hold things up.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

No, Pakistan had officially concluded Kasab was not Pakistani, even though they very well knew he was. Look at a Pakistani source: Kasab is not a Pakistani: Pak high commissioner - GEO.tv . Also see interviews by Zardari to international media. All lies. Not to mention the frantic activity by ISI agents in Faridkot to wipe out all traces of Kasab's family. That's what proves complicity.

You continue to harp on a media trial. There was no way to conclusively say that the individual in Indian custody was who India said he was unless evidence (DNA, testimony) was provided to establish his identity. Once that information was provided Pakistan confirmed his identity - whats so hard to understand about that?

Pakistan's stance was legitimate, and I fail to see how allegations of 'complicity' can be drawn from that - clutching at straws now you are.

There was a lot of chaos in Pakistan at that time, while Musharraf was going through a slow motion collapse. If all stake holders had come together to tell India that Gillani was the person to talk to, then I'm sure the discussions could have continued from where Musharraf left off. Even today, its not clear who's the guy to talk to in Pakistan.

All stakeholders had already indicated their positions on the issue, and there was no 'chaos', unless you consider the typical wheeling and dealing of South Asian politics to be 'chaos'.

You talk to whoever is in charge - your argument of 'who to talk to' is an oft repeated canard by Indians. It has been clear for a long time now that the military establishment is amenable to normalization and compromises, given that the Military Establishment led the recent efforts through the 'back channel'. The people to talk to are there, India just has to stand up to the anti-Pakistan lobby in its establishment and take that last step.

Proceeding quite well, thanks. IMHO discussions can restart after charges are filed against the LeT brass, and action taken against terrorist activities such as those that are going on at Masood Azhar's brother's estate.

Point being you haven't 'punished' him yet have you? Despite this being an 'open and shut case', so protestations about 'Pakistan not punishing XYZ' are disingenuous.

Pakistan should take responsibility for preventing militant activity on its soil targeting J&K or other parts of India. If Pakistan cannot undertake that responsibility, then it should let others do the requisite cleaning up.

I think the IK CM's comments indicate how much Pakistan has done to tamp down on the insurgency and the groups involved in it. However, no one can provide fool proof guarantees on terrorism, and it is dishonest to make this argument since India cannot even prevent home grown terrorists from killing its civilians and security forces in the East or elsewhere.

A road map can be decided on through discussions, but it will have to include milestones such as sentencing of the Mumbai culprits. Non-achievement of milestones will hold things up.

The new excuse for postponing dialog has been articulated by the GoI, and I do not have issue with it personally, and we will see movement on it as Pakistan concludes investigations and the legal system takes it up.

Given that this case will be appealed in the Pakistani Supreme court, and the PSC's ostensible independence at this point in time, a 'favorable outcome' just because the GoP wants one may not be a guarantee, hence the requests to India for more cooperation and sharing of evidence by the GoP.

At any rate, this is all on hold IMO till the new government takes charge in Delhi.

 

[Halaku Khan]

You continue to harp on a media trial. There was no way to conclusively say that the individual in Indian custody was who India said he was unless evidence (DNA, testimony) was provided to establish his identity. Once that information was provided Pakistan confirmed his identity - whats so hard to understand about that?

Pakistan's stance was legitimate, and I fail to see how allegations of 'complicity' can be drawn from that - clutching at straws now you are.

Just try to answer 2 questions:

1. Why did Pakistan officially declare that Kasab was not a Pakistani?
2. Why the frantic cover-up at Faridkot?

You talk to whoever is in charge - your argument of 'who to talk to' is an oft repeated canard by Indians. It has been clear for a long time now that the military establishment is amenable to normalization and compromises, given that the Military Establishment led the recent efforts through the 'back channel'. The people to talk to are there, India just has to stand up to the anti-Pakistan lobby in its establishment and take that last step.

Problem being that it was not clear then, nor is it clear now, who is in charge. But if there is an interlocuter who is authorized by all stake-holders, then talks can proceed after minimum conditions vis-a-vis terrorism are satisfied.

Point being you haven't 'punished' him yet have you? Despite this being an 'open and shut case', so protestations about 'Pakistan not punishing XYZ' are disingenuous.

As I mentioned, discussions can restart after charges are filed against the LeT brass, and action taken against terrorist activities such as those that are going on at Masood Azhar's brother's estate.

I think the IK CM's comments indicate how much Pakistan has done to tamp down on the insurgency and the groups involved in it. However, no one can provide fool proof guarantees on terrorism, and it is dishonest to make this argument since India cannot even prevent home grown terrorists from killing its civilians and security forces in the East or elsewhere.

Hmm ... I think what is required is sincerity of effort and some level of competence in terms of enforcement. The basic problem is the double game that Pakistan is perceived to be playing. It will help if Pakistan can demonstrate that it truly has turned a new leaf. For example, Bangladesh showed the seriousness of its purpose by hanging Islamic extremists like Bangla Bhai. If Masood Azhar's brother is running a Jihadi academy under the fond gaze of the ISI, which he is, then that is a huge problem. Pakistan has not done anything yet that demonstrates seriousness against terrorists targeting India. One possibility is that Pakistan signs an extradition treaty and actually extradites some LeT people.

The new excuse for postponing dialog has been articulated by the GoI, and I do not have issue with it personally, and we will see movement on it as Pakistan concludes investigations and the legal system takes it up.

Given that this case will be appealed in the Pakistani Supreme court, and the PSC's ostensible independence at this point in time, a 'favorable outcome' just because the GoP wants one may not be a guarantee, hence the requests to India for more cooperation and sharing of evidence by the GoP.

At any rate, this is all on hold IMO till the new government takes charge in Delhi.

Firstly, demands for action against terrorism is not an excuse. IMHO India is interested in moving ahead, but this is a central ingredient of the peace process.

Most of the investigation and the evidence gathering has to be done in Pakistan. Pakistan has to gather the evidence and then prosecute. Or otherwise Pakistan could let FBI, CBI or Scotland Yard investigate in Pakistan.