Pakistan's plans for 5th generation

[zombie:-)]

Mr.saiko

tel me on thing how is brahmos related to pakistans 5-gen plans

and the article is old on feb-1 army was tensed ,there was a new seeker tested ,it failed ,again it was fire twice and the army is mighty impressed with it after its success and two battalions and may be more will be inducted...this is entirely unrelated to the topic ...if you are saying INDO -RUSSIAN joint venture is failing as will the pak-fa ...think twice armys case is different IAF is spellbound with the sukhois ...anyway back to the topic

f-22 is great ...blah blah blah ...india currently does not need tech in the same league as the RAPTOR ..this is the point i want to make in my earlier post ....basic 5-gen radar evading tech (radars wich PA OR PAF has) will be more than enough to conduct precision strikes .....ok lets ASSUME that athe air craft will only be detectable when it is 100 km at the border of PAK (you said f-22 was 40kms detection ) this is more than enough for IAF to do what ever it wants ...how long does an aircraft take to fly 100 kms at near supersonic speeds....PAF cant fly CAP 24x7 ....anyways all the best in your quest to better tech.

 

[saiko]

Mr.saiko

tel me on thing how is brahmos related to pakistans 5-gen plans

It's part of my point that India is not spending cost-effectively which ties into why PAK-FA will not be a successful project for India. If India was spending cost-effectively they would never engage in the PAK-FA project. Russia can not admit it is not a first-rate airpower (with respect to technology, not actual operational airplanes) so they have no choice but to commit to a true 5th gen style project - and they suckered India into paying for half of it. India will end up with a fighter that is not cost-effective and will end up being as "stealthy" as the JSF, which is to say not very. Russia will maybe buy 12 or so with "intent" to buy many more, but won't actually buy any and just try to export it. India meanwhile will blow its air force budget procuring them.

This of course all ties into the main theme of my post - Pakistan does not need to be shaking in their boots over PAK-FA. Frankly Pakistan _should_ be shaking in their boots at Indian military might based on the defence expenditure disparity alone. But they really don't and it's because India is not spending wisely. Maybe it's a national pride/ego thing but India's defence projects are mostly way too ambitious at the moment.

basic 5-gen radar evading tech (radars wich PA OR PAF has) will be more than enough to conduct precision strikes .....ok lets ASSUME that athe air craft will only be detectable when it is 100 km at the border of PAK (you said f-22 was 40kms detection ) this is more than enough for IAF to do what ever it wants ...how long does an aircraft take to fly 100 kms at near supersonic speeds....PAF cant fly CAP 24x7 ....anyways all the best in your quest to better tech.

That is small, high-band, fire control radar range. As in the kind of radar on a fighter. The powerful AEW radars, low-band search/early warning radars etc will all pick up these stealthy fighters at longer ranges. China is investing a lot of money (as are the Russians) on low-band search/acquisition radars. Now low-band radars are not a one-stop solution for all things stealth, but they do remove the element of surprise. And if your 5th gen fighter can be locked at maximum effective BVR firing range anyways, you really don't have that much of an advantage - but you paid 5 times more for your airplane for it.

The Serbs used an ancient VHF band radar to detect the F-117. Of course, it did not provide the necessary accuracy to shoot down the F-117 with a direct hit, so they ended up using visual optics to spot it and shoot it down. But they were only able to do so because their ancient, low-band radar detected the F-117's general location first.

 

[zombie:-)]

who said india is not spending cost effectively ???? and because of that we are going for a 5-gen project ...man you are confused ...india is in a better position than pak...PAK caurently needs to spend cost effectively and india needs to do that tooo.....but in case of pak due to limited availability of resources it is just not going deep into futue planning .....india is not losinfg money in the PAK-FA project but is also gaining vital experience for the MCA project (you missed this completely)..and russia buying 12 part is just B.ULL S.HIT ..AND INDIA WILL NOT BUY PAK-FA itll go for FGFA which will be based on the PAK-FA ..fgfa is a completely different fighter...from pak-fa will come experience and will learn newer ways to evolve fighter designs from the FGFA preoject

and the ambitious part .....yeah it is highly ambitious and when itll bear fruits its gonna be at a differt level altogather....why dont you call china over-ambitious trying to make fighter jets with minimal help from outside and you guys confidently say is better than curren systems around?????

about the effectiveness of a 5-gen aircraft bieng ineffective when itll be locked at 100kms...at 100 kms a small blip appears on the screen ..the plane will not be locked on right away ....you loose my whole point .......FIRSTLY I SAID THIS WITH REGARD TO MY PREVIOUS ARGUMENT ABOUT SURGICAL STRIKES ....and not a2a combat ...

but you paid 5 times more for your airplane for it.????? ----whats this????

yeah i agree by 2015-2017 the PAK-FA wont be great but post 2020 itll be a force to recon with and again comes the experience part....we are not buying it alone we are a part of the project

yeah i now about the serb part ...isnt it a departure from the trend then to low band radars till then they thought f-117 was invincible

back to topic what can PAF do to counter 5 gen aircraft till it gets one ....will go to china for a reproduced BIG BIRD ?????? or will usa step in LIKE THE COLD WAR TIMES ...

 

[saiko]

Do we really need to rehash how many DRDO projects are pretty much a failure? It's obvious to anybody objective that India bit off more than they can chew on many of those defense projects. And with those failures comes a lot of money wasted. That's a fact. You might argue that's learning curve, but there are smarter ways to learn than repeatedly, high-profile and costly failures.

It doesn't matter if we're talking surgical strikes or air dominance or whatever else - stealth is stealth and detection is detection in either case.

All I'm saying is your 5th gen fighter is not likely to dramatically change the dynamic in the sub-continent no matter how much that might hurt to hear. Unless you produce a F-22 class fighter your gains diminish very rapidly and you're not getting any value for your dollar.

But we're obviously not on the same page here and this discussion will go downhill fast, so I'm going to bow out at this point.

 

[zombie:-)]

, but there are smarter ways to learn than repeatedly, high-profile and costly failures.

But we're obviously not on the same page here and this discussion will go downhill fast, so I'm going to bow out at this point.

come on man how did drdo get into fgfa and pak-fa please present the right facts or dont post ...please there are many minds working there to cut costs ...easier said than done

...dont worry things will be taken care of by the respective govts

 

[pshamim]

come on man how did drdo get into fgfa and pak-fa please present the right facts or dont post ...please there are many minds working there to cut costs ...easier said than done

...dont worry things will be taken care of by the respective govts

Do not want to get into a pissing contest, but would like to say that DRDO is considered a great advantage Pakistani has as considered by many.

 

[Contrarian]

Do not want to get into a pissing contest, but would like to say that DRDO is considered a great advantage Pakistani has as considered by many.

DRDO has made many a mistakes and wasted a lot of money. But the thing is that their failures are trumpeted(usually by the foreign lobbies), while their truely remarkable successes are not at all printed-Ever.

DRDO is underrated-grossly.

 

[pshamim]

DRDO has made many a mistakes and wasted a lot of money. But the thing is that their failures are trumpeted(usually by the foreign lobbies), while their truely remarkable successes are not at all printed-Ever.

DRDO is underrated-grossly.

I think Indian commentators are harsher. Hindu, Frontline and others who have written constantly are not foreign.

 

[duhastmish]

Well pakistan can convince - russia to participate in their PAK-Fa , Russian would do anythign for money att this time, as they are breakign all rules of = partnerships with india.
Like they are including crasil in this pak-fa deal without even asking india.

 

[omerhhh]

The Jxx should look like this or similar.

 

[a1b2c145]

They made substantial changes to JF-17 which is changing all the time from JF-17 001 to JF-17 004,meantime, J-10 is changing to from j10 to j10A ,j10B~~~ this is the cockpit photoed in Zhuhai Air Show that chinese have developed for there next generation fighter plane .

 

[Zob]

see stelath technology if u can buy it of the shelf will be cheaper than building it....and trust me in the next 30 years stealth technology will not be alien technology when the first atomic bomb was made people thought ohh my god who will ever be able to compete with the Americans...and then same thing happened in the 1950s with the F-86s over korea....so my dear friends i say as long as Pakistan has China instead of putting BILLIONSinto developing the stealth technology i rahter pay millions and buy it off the shelf....while India spends billions maing PAK-FA...and most importantly....there is always a counter to everything so STEALTH i believe will be countered in the next decade....that is the beauty of technology....

 

[omerhhh]

see stelath technology if u can buy it of the shelf will be cheaper than building it....and trust me in the next 30 years stealth technology will not be alien technology when the first atomic bomb was made people thought ohh my god who will ever be able to compete with the Americans...and then same thing happened in the 1950s with the F-86s over korea....so my dear friends i say as long as Pakistan has China instead of putting BILLIONSinto developing the stealth technology i rahter pay millions and buy it off the shelf....while India spends billions maing PAK-FA...and most importantly....there is always a counter to everything so STEALTH i believe will be countered in the next decade....that is the beauty of technology....

you're right technology is beautiful we just have to stay ahead or buy from people who are ahead.

 

[maverick2009]

Staying Ahead or Buying Technology from Abroad takes serious money.

In many cases even money is not sufficient to get you the technology because their are some technologies that can,t be brought even by your close allies.

eg RAF & NATO will get only a downgraded version of JSF.

Japan & Aussies will not get F22 Raptor from USA

Even Israel will be allowed JSF with some down grades...

Where does this leave PAK FA.

Russia has a very good AERO nautical industrial base. We all love the Flankers. To say they can,t build a good 5th Generation fighter is just rubbish. PAK FA will be superior to both Rafale & Typhoon and on a Par to JSF.

" i THINK THAT WILL BE MORE THAN ENOUGH FOR 99% of the Worlds Air Forces including PAF PLAAF OR IAF EVEN IN 2020.

For india nobodyelse bar RUSSIA is throwing 5th generation technology at India or indeed any other country. For this reason alone $5 or even $10 billion development share costs is very good business...


AS FOR PAKISTAN.

Are the chinease or indeed anybody else looking to share 5TH GENERATION technology with Pakistan even for $10 billion pakistani dollars.

 

[nightcrawler]

India-Russia to co-develop midrange transport aircraft
India and Russia Wednesday agreed to jointly develop a multi-role transport aircraft (MTA) amid indications that Moscow's proposal to co-develop a fifth generation combat jet was making progress.
India and Russia Wednesday agreed to jointly develop a multi-role transport aircraft (MTA) amid indications that Moscow's proposal to co-develop a fifth generation combat jet was making progress.
The two countries have also agreed to the licensed production in India of the RD-33 engines that power the frontline MiG-29 fighters of the Indian Air Force. They also discussed Russia's offer of the advanced MiG-35 jet to meet the IAF's requirement of multi-role combat aircraft (MRCA). The RD-33
engine also powers the MiG-35. The protocols on the MTA and the aero engines were signed after the sixth meeting of the
Inter-Governmental Commission on Military Technical Cooperation (IRIGC-MTC) here, after which Indian Defence Minister A.K. Antony and his Russian counterpart Sergei Ivanov addressed a joint press conference.

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