Pakistan's plans for 5th generation

[Kaiser]

Yes true the chinese have not only made alot of improvments on the J-10 in the last 2 years, but also on the JF-17 and future J-10c

 

[Taihang]

Chinese J-10 is being fitted with a Russian TVC engine, stealthy coating material (recipe from the F-117 down in East Europe) and AESA radar (type 1495). It's the Chinese answer to Su-30MKI, JAS39 and EF-2000.
Don't know what configuration of J-10 PAF is ordering.

The Chinese 5th generation? Long way to go.

 

[Kaiser]

Chinese J-10 is being fitted with a Russian TVC engine, stealthy coating material (recipe from the F-117 down in East Europe) and AESA radar (type 1495). It's the Chinese answer to Su-30MKI, JAS39 and EF-2000.
Don't know what configuration of J-10 PAF is ordering.

The Chinese 5th generation? Long way to go.

Pakistani air marshall said that PAF will only go for an advanced J-10 meaning the J-10c. So I think PAF might make its J-10's order around 200-2008 time frame

 

[Neo]

Pakistani air marshall said that PAF will only go for an advanced J-10 meaning the J-10c. So I think PAF might make its J-10's order around 200-2008 time frame

J-10C may not be available before 2010, there are still technical problems to be solved with the initial prototype. WS-13 is still under development and the current AL engine is overrated.
I don't expect PAF to raise the order from current 36 till 2010.

 

[sweetboy]

is there any news in pakistani side about J-XX

 

[Luftwaffe]

i don't know if someone will agree with me or not but China has parallel projects plans for a Euro Fighter like Jet that will incorporate some of the features of stealth like EF2000 and alleged JXX that will be complete Stealth. could J-10 have a version like EF2000 might be work is going on left is JXX and that too will take a long time because china hasn't even perfected its J-10. I've a question do you guys think china and is it not feasible that china's J-10 like F-16 incorporates CFT for longer range and multi platform rather than this JH-7? i'm confused why is china investing in so many parallel projects while wouldn't it be better to focus of core projects like JXX, J-10.

 

[batmannow]

China is commited to buying 250 but, my geuss is that the numbers can easily go over 400. China is no super power or rich nation, it cant afford to have 500-600 hundred sukhoi's and 500-1000 J-10. The maintanence alone of these fighters will take a large bite out of the chinese airforces budget. So the only fighter left to procure is the jf-17 reason? Its cheap, highly versatile, easy to maintain, etc... But still not as good as the J-10

As for pakistan's future plans for a 5th generation fighter,trust me if I were the leader of Pakistan I would start focussing for the future and not the past. The F-16 is getting obsolete everyday at the same time India is going for much more advanced fighters. We cant match the IAF quantitative wise then we can try to be better than them qualitative wise. To do this we need to scrape the F-16 deal and start investing in future projects such as China's j-xx program

Kaiser;sir
China is no super power or rich nation, it cant afford to have 500-600 hundred sukhoi's and 500-1000 J-10.
sory to say dear sir!
but this line is totaly wrong! china is a celebrated SUPER POWER with a veto power in SC, of UN.
CHINA is economicly ahead of every one, right now!
many of EU member nation s including US of A is requesting , loans from china, & well i guss, in comming future , china will be having more advanced jets thn sukhoi's & j-10s.
plz correct me if i am wrong!
thanks

 

[batmannow]

i don't know if someone will agree with me or not but China has parallel projects plans for a Euro Fighter like Jet that will incorporate some of the features of stealth like EF2000 and alleged JXX that will be complete Stealth. could J-10 have a version like EF2000 might be work is going on left is JXX and that too will take a long time because china hasn't even perfected its J-10. I've a question do you guys think china and is it not feasible that china's J-10 like F-16 incorporates CFT for longer range and multi platform rather than this JH-7? i'm confused why is china investing in so many parallel projects while wouldn't it be better to focus of core projects like JXX, J-10.

luftwaffe;sir
simple answer is that, CHINA is only remaining economic superpower in the world, & they have got enough money to invest in projects like JH-7,JXX, J-10.

 

[maverick2009]

China,s Problem re Stealth Technology is NOT MONEY.

They have more money then USA !!!

Their biggest weakness is They cannot buy or share technology from West.

The WEST is running Scared of China.

 

[batmannow]

China,s Problem re Stealth Technology is NOT MONEY.

They have more money then USA !!!

Their biggest weakness is They cannot buy or share technology from West.

The WEST is running Scared of China.

maverick2009; SIR
ABSOLUTLY RIGHT!
but west,s problem is money?
& money can buy or steel, every thing even from NASA?
The WEST is running & begging for money from china?
what you say!

 

[saiko]

I don't think you need to worry too much about PAK-FA. I have little doubt it will be significantly better than the Su-35, but it will be no where near what the F-22 can offer.

The Russians are lagging a fair bit in air force technology at the moment and they will never design a fighter in the F-22 class for the simple reason that the F-22 is way too expensive for Russia (or India for that matter).

Cheaper, asymetric technologies will degrade the F-22 effectiveness (boasts of 3 decades of air dominance being assured by the Raptor are hilarious for many reasons, not the least of which is the fact that they only have a handful of them) over time.

And frankly, Russia could not design something on par with the F-22 at the moment even if money was no object. Too many ancillary industries were neglected after the fall of the Soviet Union... and designing a fighter with all the performance parameters of the F-22 is not easy.

 

[omerhhh]

Its likely that Pakistan will buy the J-13 sometime after 2019; its favoured to enter PLAAF service sometime around 2015~2017. J-13 will trace its roots to the J-10; and it is likely that this aircraft will enter service long before the J-12/14. However, Eurofighter and Rafale will likely be considered as options as well.

Can the PAF even afford the eurofighter?

 

[zombie:-)]

i know this might stir a hornets nest but

I don't think you need to worry too much about PAK-FA. I have little doubt it will be significantly better than the Su-35, but it will be no where near what the F-22 can offer

but as far as i know pakistan does not have the f-22 YET ..so there is every reason for them to worry about it ..unless their chinese counterparts have something coming against it

...the main advantage of PAKFA would be that surgical strikes will be really easy to carry out if the tech. in it is that good ....or the chinese will simply come with a cheap derivative of BIG BIRD RADAR ...or wil the PAK-FA be able to evade a russian BIG BIRD only time will tell...but right now PAF HAS EVERY REASON TO WORRY ABOUT THE PAK-FA ..... surely they cant tell JAB AAYEGA TAB DHEKLENGE

 

[saiko]

i know this might stir a hornets nest but



but as far as i know pakistan does not have the f-22 YET ..so there is every reason for them to worry about it ..unless their chinese counterparts have something coming against it

...the main advantage of PAKFA would be that surgical strikes will be really easy to carry out if the tech. in it is that good ....or the chinese will simply come with a cheap derivative of BIG BIRD RADAR ...or wil the PAK-FA be able to evade a russian BIG BIRD only time will tell...but right now PAF HAS EVERY REASON TO WORRY ABOUT THE PAK-FA ..... surely they cant tell JAB AAYEGA TAB DHEKLENGE

I have a few comments. First, China may be an emerging super power but one place they've really lagged in technology is in the air. They are making leaps and strides now, but they are still quite far behind. So Pakistan probably should not expect to be getting some awesome fifth gen fighter from China. When they sort out the WS-10 problems and develop a very capable ESA radar domestically let's talk. But realistically, Pakistan doesn't need to.

The F-22 has great all aspect stealth, but the current crop of AESA radars and the ones soon to be released will still be able to see the F-22 20-40km out, frontally. That range will only increase as TR modules in radars miniaturize further. The F-22 airframe is set - they can't change its shape to make it even more stealthy at this point. Radar improvement will continually degrade LO aircraft's performance way faster than it can be improved (and at much less comparitive cost). This is only considering fighter-based radar. Low-band radar, IRST/OLS, etc and all these other technologies degrade stealth performance. That doesn't mean that the F-22 sucks by any means. it's amazing. But its cost/benefit is not worth for 99% of the world's air forces. for the USA, 1 pilots life is worth another $50 million dollars per fighter because 1 dead pilot could tie the hands of the military due to public pressure/opinion.

PAK-FA will not be anything remotely close to an F-22 class fighter (which is an obscene amount of money to spend on any fighter). Case in point - there was an incident involing an F-22 that landed where the canopy would not open (software glitch presumably).

So they cut the canopy open to free the pilot. Some small pieces of canopy glass fell onto the airframe itself and slide down it causing damage . That minor bit of damage will cost $1 million dollars to fix.

Pictures here:

Langley Air Force Base Briefing: F-22 03-041 Stuck Canopy | SpaceRef - Space News as it Happens

You are kidding yourself if you think Russia or India (or Pakistan or China for that matter) will ever field a fighter with anything remotely close to those kinds of maintenance and upkeep costs. You think the Mig-21s were hard to maintain well wait until you try to maintan an F-22.

So basically what you will end up with is an inferior F-22 class fighter with a limited internal payload that is probably already detectable frontally from about where you'd fire your own BVR missile anyways - and that's with today's right now fighter-class radar technology. And that advantage will only degrade over time.

All Pakistan needs to do is find someone willing to sell it a high performance radar. With AESA being all the rage these days, there are plenty of MSA and PESA radars out there matching AESA radars in performance that will become available on the export market as its seen as "older" technology even though they may provide similar detection parameters. They might need to go for a "bigger" class of fighter for the larger radome, but all of these is obtainable or will be in the next 5-6 years at reasonable cost.

ANd it will follow exatly Pakistan's necessary strategy or being much more cost effective than India. India's job is to spend wisely - and right now its not and thus doing Pakistan a big favour in Pakistan's time of serious econmic and political upheaval. Perhaps less welfare for the domestic defence industry - start with smaller projects they can actually handle and work them up that way, rather than going all out trying to develop all the latest high tech high profile weapons systems and running into trouble everywhere. Even teh "successful" projects like the BrahMos (which I'm a big fan of) evidently has poor seeker technology in the land attack version to the point the army stopped purchasing it until they fix those problems.

Edit: Here's the link for the BrahMos story:

Army losing interest in Brahmos missile

 

[Super Falcon]

i dont think so india will go for Su 47 they have pakfa in their eyes but for paf still we r very very far behind for jxx first we have to finish with jf 17 which is very slow after that j 10 is next project when we finish witht his than only paf wil be think for jxx still 10 to 15 years required to get them