Pakistan's Nuclear Assets wont be a secret anymore.

[neehar]

i see this as a good sign..army working "under" democracy always makes a country stable..

 

[Jango]

15 Billion went into the Higher Education commission.

And guess what, it was the cruel military dictator Pervez Musharraf (I ain't his fan), who increased the education budget and made advances in this field through HEC. Alot of effort went into it by relevant people, more degrees output, etc etc. There was a recent thread on this forum of a interview by Dr Atta Ur Rehman, he talked about the support of the evil dictator Mush for the HEC.

Another thing to note in that budget sheet is that the budget of PAEC increased by more than 10 Billion.

 

[Safriz]

15 Billion went into the Higher Education commission.

And guess what, it was the cruel military dictator Pervez Musharraf (I ain't his fan), who increased the education budget and made advances in this field through HEC. Alot of effort went into it by relevant people, more degrees output, etc etc. There was a recent thread on this forum of a interview by Dr Atta Ur Rehman, he talked about the support of the evil dictator Mush for the HEC.

Another thing to note in that budget sheet is that the budget of PAEC increased by more than 10 Billion.

PAEC is building nuclear reactors may be thats why required more money..

 

[VCheng]

Thank You for pointing it out, i was wrong. The defence budget accounts for 20% of the Total Budget, but that is expected as we need to maintain a conventional deterrence and we are paying out of our own pocket for the operations active in FATA. My question is, where exactly does the 80% of the budget go? Is there the same level of efficiency and accountability that is available in the Army?.............

77% of the budget is taken up as follows:

Debt servicing is 1140 billion, 44%.

Defense budget is 648.2 billion (estimated) as follows, 25%:

Defense Affairs and Services = 545 billion
Military Pensions = 98 billion
PAEC = 40 billion
Defence Division = 3.2 billion
Defence Production Division = 2 billion

Subsidies are 208 billion, 8%.

Everything else gets the remaining 23%.

 

[Jango]

It isn't the army's fault that debt servicing is so large is it?

Then add in already low tax gathering, and the picture doesn't look so good.

But that all is for another thread.

 

[VCheng]

VCheng, to tell you the truth, i never wished a change even after ten years, but all i wanted was a change in the head who was leading. I did wanted to continue but with a different man on the seat. The years of politics i have seen has made my resolve concrete that Army is our solution and not politicians, but army controlled setup more to be precise.

I can respect your resolve, while disagreeing with it. How does one change dictators?

And with 15-20% budget to defence, does not means the our priority is defence, yeah with some 40% or 50% you were right, but not with a 15-20% budget figure. People mostly like you try to make or suggest it such, but facts and figures don't go with the assumption you guys make.

The figures I have quoted are not assumptions.

You turn PIA, WAPDA, railways & PS into if not profitable rather break even organizations, you save something which would be more then defence budget to be spend on education & health.

Anything that allows more resources for education and health is to be supported.

But first, make sure the already allocated budget to education and health is effectively and efficiently used and we see results, then add more.

Yeah, somebody else should do it first. Pity everyone thinks that way, leading to no one doing anything.

I don't see military budget has any negative influence on budgets of other sectors.

Debt servicing is pretty much fixed for the foreseeable future, given past policies of many governments, and takes the most out of the budget. The next biggest item is defence expenditure. Of course these two items affect everything else negatively. How can they not?

 

[VCheng]

It isn't the army's fault that debt servicing is so large is it?

Then add in already low tax gathering, and the picture doesn't look so good.

But that all is for another thread.

Agreed.

Where is this "another thread"?

 

[VCheng]

Rs.512B went into Subsidies, wow.

What kind of subsidies ?? Electricity prices sky rocketed, gas prices up, fuel prices are up, other necessary daily items going up, where the hell is the subsidy going ?? PIA, WAPDA, Railways, PS and many many more.............

I see the Federal subsidies listed as 208 billion, and not 512.

The price increase you mention would have been even worse if these subsidies were not there. In fact, one of things that the IMF is likely to insist on is removal of these subsidies even further as part of its next package, in addition to imposition of a Sales Tax.

The present allocations of the budget are simply untenable, and yes, that includes the defence spending as well as the other items you mention.

 

[SQ8]

The fact remians.. that the military can claim all the decades of development and economic boom.
But at the end of the day.. it was under and preceded by military rule.. that BD broke away.. and Balochistan is about to follow suit very soon.
What is NOT the characteristic of one organ of this country.. it should not pretend to be good at it.

What the Fauj lovers forget.. is that the military takes its manpower from the very same pool that makes the politicos..
To say that a few years at Kakul helps stem the corrupt tendencies of our nation(lets just forget about MES,FWO,NLC and countless records of procurement scandals running into billions) till they make it to the braids on their shoulders is a fairer statement.
The difference between a corrupt civilian and a corrupt military man is simply that the military man needs to reach a certain rank before he can engage in corruption at will...but he definitely makes up for it.
As for proof, when you run the agencies that may tamper with records at their will.. classify everything under "national security" and then say "there's no proof against us" while the daft civilian guy has a huge paper trail behind him...yes.. I can see the fairness in that statement of "The military is less corrupt"..

We as a people are corrupt... and will continue to be so for another hundred years(if Pakistan lasts that long) unless this attitude of "holier than thou" ends. Half our lives are focused on trying to prove our favorites in a shining light with blind faith in mere corporeal figureheads.
We only offer excuses on our own faults by trying to find someone worse off instead of working on ourselves.
The military apologists work tirelessly to prove that the civilians(even though they themselves come under that classification) are worse and till they are fixed..the military is not interested in admitting to even a bit of its faults.
The civilians cite the military as the cause of all ills and ruptures in society.. while ignoring the fact that they outnumber them 100 to 1 ..and they can(and it has happened in other countries) grab such uniformed offenders by their belts and beat them in the streets.

But nay Pakistanis.. we are too comfortable playing the fiddle of blame.. while all that we hold dear is withering away before our very eyes.

A start would be to admit we are collectively at fault...and we ..I will be first to look at myself before I point fingers at anyone..
But then, who has ego's that strong and humble to take that step.

 

[Jango]

Agreed.

Where is this "another thread"?

There have been many in times gone by, the topic has been much discussed, it's become tiring to repeat the same old again and again.

 

[VCheng]

................
The military apologists work tirelessly to prove that the civilians(even though they themselves come under that classification) are worse and till they are fixed..the military is not interested in admitting to even a bit of its faults.
The civilians cite the military as the cause of all ills and ruptures in society.. while ignoring the fact that they outnumber them 100 to 1 ..and they can(and it has happened in other countries) grab such uniformed offenders by their belts and beat them in the streets.

But nay Pakistanis.. we are too comfortable playing the fiddle of blame.. while all that we hold dear is withering away before our very eyes.............

Exactly, just like two occupants of the same boat arguing about who should mend the hole on the other side of the boat first since it seems to be bigger as the boat sinks.

 

[Jango]

But nay Pakistanis.. we are too comfortable playing the fiddle of blame.. while all that we hold dear is withering away before our very eyes.

A start would be to admit we are collectively at fault...and we ..I will be first to look at myself before I point fingers at anyone..
But then, who has ego's that strong and humble to take that step.

Well said.

This also requires that everything should not be blamed on the military and the civilian government.

Har cheez fauj ya civilians par thomp nhn deni chahiyay.

Everything should not be blamed on Zardari. When a woman makes her child urinate in the corridors of Mayo Hospital, it should not be termed as Zardari's fault, but a little self-introspection is required. Same is the case with me, with you, with everyone. Alot of other examples are there, but not mentioning them, rather than correcting them should be done.

Now I am not protecting or defending the military, you would see me on the front line of bashing them where they deserve it, like giving ready made multi-million house on retirement, or gifting cars from army exchequer, but simply putting all the blame for Pakistan's ills on them would be wrong.

(just felt I should make my stand clear)

 

[SQ8]

Exactly, just like two occupants of the same boat arguing about who should mend the hole on the other side of the boat first since it seems to be bigger as the boat sinks.

And its appalling that these "occupants" are ignoring those abandoning ship and not asking why.. but rather making idiotic statements like "they are free to leave" or "traitors"..
The water is already at the knees...and the automatic pumps arent working anymore...yet nobody wants to pick up the bucket and shove it out.
After all.. the more pressing issue of "whose is the bigger whole" is at hand.

And you may have a hundred cannons(warheads, weapons and the like) on your ship.. but if its sinking..because you chose to fit it with cannons instead of fixing the leaks.. then all they will be at the end is a wreck at the bottom of the ocean.

But then again, I think its asking too much of these people.

 

[BATMAN]

77% of the budget is taken up as follows:

Debt servicing is 1140 billion, 44%.

Defense budget is 648.2 billion (estimated) as follows, 25%:

Defense Affairs and Services = 545 billion
Military Pensions = 98 billion
PAEC = 40 billion
Defence Division = 3.2 billion
Defence Production Division = 2 billion

Subsidies are 208 billion, 8%.

Everything else gets the remaining 23%.

.

If there was no Zardari, we could conveniently add 44% of debt servicing to every thing else.

Continuing to your Indian formulae of applying defence budget in % of GDP.
All what Pakistan need to reduce defence budget is to increase its GDP!

Under rule of P.Musharraf, we could also assume double growth of GDP, hence defence budget could have been reduced to less the 10%.

While Zardari regime is turning Pakistan into a consumer driven nation, by allowing open smuggling and zero transparency of transit aid business.

 

[SQ8]

.

If there was no Zardari, we could conveniently add 44% of debt servicing to every thing else.

Continuing your Indian formulae of applying defence budget in % of GDP.
Under rule of P.Musharraf, we could also assume double growth of GDP, hence defence budget could have been reduced to less the 10%.

Would you mind clarifying that comment?