Pakistan's Nuclear Assets wont be a secret anymore.

[SQ8]

As if there're some rag tag baboons running these defence institutes that they'll slip through the security of the country with these mambo jambo transparencies scams...



as long as you're sending the remittance... Pakistan isn't going anywhere.

Not quite there, but not quite a lot that smart either.
Its a balance of brilliant and downright daft.

 

[Fieldmarshal]

believe u me very very few of the so called "enlightened and educated" class send any thing back to Pakistan and remittance is the very last thing that they would ever send to Pakistan.
It is the poor and mostly illiterate maszdoors who send back the over whelming majority of the billions in form of the remittance that Pakistan is so very dependent upon, which is basically keeping Pakistan afloat economically.

the only thing that the"enlightened and educated" Pakistani diaspora is good at is whingeing and cribbing.

 

[Contrarian]

What you are terming a "paradigm shift" is merely a temporary accommodation being used as a political ploy that will not be allowed to take hold to the extent that you described.

It maybe a political ploy but it will be almost impossible to roll back trade liberalization after 5 years.

Secondly, this in parallel to the Pakistan Military gradually and bit by bit losing its numero uno position in Pakistan by way of masses, judiciary and a polity determined to avert any possibility of military coup will ensure that the security state takes a relatively back seat.

These factors in conjunction are unprecedented in Pakistan's history. They will yield if not a major atleast not an inconsequential amount of change.

 

[VCheng]

It maybe a political ploy but it will be almost impossible to roll back trade liberalization after 5 years.

Secondly, this in parallel to the Pakistan Military gradually and bit by bit losing its numero uno position in Pakistan by way of masses, judiciary and a polity determined to avert any possibility of military coup will ensure that the security state takes a relatively back seat.

These factors in conjunction are unprecedented in Pakistan's history. They will yield if not a major atleast not an inconsequential amount of change.

IF trade liberalization lasts 5 years, which is a big IF.

The military will not be giving up its position anytime soon, please rest assured. The factors that you mention as currently in progress are a mere veneer being tolerated for the time being because it is expedient to do so.

 

[notorious_eagle]

My statements are merely based in reality, assessed honestly.

Pakistan has now fallen into the same trap that led to USSR's demise: trying to outspend larger opposing economies on weapons, based on obsolete understanding of its situation, while neglecting the development of its people and economy. I see no reasons that would lead one to conclude anything different.

For the current allocated budget, defence expenditure forms almost 15% of the total budget. So please tell me, how have you come to the conclusion that Pakistan is spending herself into an oblivion. The Army is well aware of the fact that they cannot match India bullet for bullet, that is why they have devised the doctrine of 'minimum credible deterrence'. So far it seems to be working quite well, the defence budget has been kept down and PA has successfully managed to maintain the balance of power in the region.

It is not the defence budget that is putting a strain on development and the economy. It is the nepotism and rampant corruption that is found in our civil and political institutions. You can reduce the defence expenditure to zero and it will still not make an iota of difference. Unless the fundamental structures of the country are not re-hauled, the economy will continue to stay in the dirty ditch that it is at present. The losses incurred by the three big white elephants (PIA, PR and PSM) are almost equivalent to the Army defence budget. Just a couple of months ago a report revealed that $96 billion have been lost to corruption. This amount far exceeds the amount of aid and loans received + the Army budget. If there is any party to blame for the current economic mess, it is this PPP government and no one else. I am surprised how you would brought the Army into your twisted analogy.

IF trade liberalization lasts 5 years, which is a big IF.

The military will not be giving up its position anytime soon, please rest assured. The factors that you mention as currently in progress are a mere veneer being tolerated for the time being because it is expedient to do so.

Please expand on the highlighted part

Thanks

 

[VCheng]

If the reply is regarded as being off-topic in this thread, please move or delete as appropriate. Thanks.

For the current allocated budget, defence expenditure forms almost 15% of the total budget. So please tell me, how have you come to the conclusion that Pakistan is spending herself into an oblivion. The Army is well aware of the fact that they cannot match India bullet for bullet, that is why they have devised the doctrine of 'minimum credible deterrence'. So far it seems to be working quite well, the defence budget has been kept down and PA has successfully managed to maintain the balance of power in the region.

Look at it this way: The defence expenditure is several times more than the expenditure on health and education combined. That alone speaks volumes about the perverted sense of priorities that prevails currently.

It is not the defence budget that is putting a strain on development and the economy. It is the nepotism and rampant corruption that is found in our civil and political institutions. You can reduce the defence expenditure to zero and it will still not make an iota of difference. Unless the fundamental structures of the country are not re-hauled, the economy will continue to stay in the dirty ditch that it is at present. The losses incurred by the three big white elephants (PIA, PR and PSM) are almost equivalent to the Army defence budget. Just a couple of months ago a report revealed that $96 billion have been lost to corruption. This amount far exceeds the amount of aid and loans received + the Army budget. If there is any party to blame for the current economic mess, it is this PPP government and no one else. I am surprised how you would brought the Army into your twisted analogy.

The current economic mess is multi-factorial, and the roots go much deeper than just the present government. And yes, those roots include the Army leadership for its extra-Constitutional roles in the past. That should be no surprise, but a mere statement of fact.

Please expand on the highlighted part

Thanks

What I meant by "The military will not be giving up its position anytime soon, please rest assured" is that the Army leadership's tradition of usurping extra-Constitutional authority when it suits its purposes is likely to continue. The present situation is merely a tactical retreat, only temporary.

 

[Contrarian]

IF trade liberalization lasts 5 years, which is a big IF.

That is something we can only speculate. However, IF the trade liberalization lasts 5 years, it will almost certainly become impossible to roll back.

The military will not be giving up its position anytime soon, please rest assured. The factors that you mention as currently in progress are a mere veneer being tolerated for the time being because it is expedient to do so.

The veneer means that it does lose power even in a tactical retreat. The circumstances - both global and local - have changed. Harder to implement a coup now. At best they can pull strings on puppets behind the scene, but just like Nawaz Sharif, for how long will the puppets like to be controlled, eventually they want to move out.

You will have to give some examples or explanation here mate as to why you think that it is merely a tactical retreat and not a change in the external environment.

 

[TaimiKhan]

If the reply is regarded as being off-topic in this thread, please move or delete as appropriate. Thanks.

Look at it this way: The defence expenditure is several times more than the expenditure on health and education combined. That alone speaks volumes about the perverted sense of priorities that prevails currently.

The current economic mess is multi-factorial, and the roots go much deeper than just the present government. And yes, those roots include the Army leadership for its extra-Constitutional roles in the past. That should be no surprise, but a mere statement of fact.

What I meant by "The military will not be giving up its position anytime soon, please rest assured" is that the Army leadership's tradition of usurping extra-Constitutional authority when it suits its purposes is likely to continue. The present situation is merely a tactical retreat, only temporary.

Well if health and education are getting less, whose fault is it ?? If 15-20% of the total budget goes into defence, then where does rest of the 85-80% goes ?? Where are the trilions of rupees going ?? And what about the effectiveness and efficiency of the current health & education budgets, has anyone talked about that. Has anyone talked how much goes into corruption. First we should make sure the current budget is properly utilized and then we should ask for more or question the defence budget. Defence budget is not the reason for low health & education budgets, its our own ineffectiveness that has led to that.

And strange thing is, in these dictatorial times the country flourished more then ever and we can't say the same about the other side.

The military will never let go their position, till the time our politicians keep providing them that space & opportunity due to which military enjoys such a position. Till that day, there is no use of criticizing the military, as its not their fault, its the fault of our politicians who are incompetent & useless. Just look at Turkey, how the once powerful military has been silenced, but its done through good deeds, not words.

And by looking at them, i & many Pakistanis like me prefer the Army over the politicians.

 

[notorious_eagle]

Look at it this way: The defence expenditure is several times more than the expenditure on health and education combined. That alone speaks volumes about the perverted sense of priorities that prevails currently.

The defence expenditure forms almost 15% of the total budget, where exactly does the 85% of the budget go? How much money out of the total budget is spent on the luxuries of our honest and sincere political leaders, do you have any idea?. You are more than welcome to conduct an audit on the amount of money that is spent by Ministers, Governors, PM and President on their luxuries. How about President Zardari sells the 100 Mercedes S Class that were ordered recently to award PPP loyalists for their service to the Party. I will also ignore the fact on how much corruption exists in the Health and Education Departments. Workers are collecting cheques without even showing up for work, people with no experience what so ever in health or education are being given senior posts in the concerned Departments because they happen to be supporters of PPP. The Army on the other hand is known for its efficiency and accountability, believe me a Lt has to present a detailed report for even a litre of petrol. I can quite see your angle now, you are just here to malign the Army without an iota of proof.

The current economic mess is multi-factorial, and the roots go much deeper than just the present government. And yes, those roots include the Army leadership for its extra-Constitutional roles in the past. That should be no surprise, but a mere statement of fact.

Pray tell me, how exactly is the Army responsible for this current mess. Does the PPP Government need more than almost 4.5 years to set the country straight, the Army has distanced itself from all institutions and has let the PPP Government take care of all the issues. The results are right infront of you, the Army is by no means responsible for this.

The only times the Army has engaged in extra Constitutional role is when the civilian government has failed. The Army was forced to step in to steer the country in the right direction. If the bloody politicians would have done their job right, believe me the Army would be more than happy to sit in the Barracks. The Army only steps in when the people want her to step in.

What I meant by "The military will not be giving up its position anytime soon, please rest assured" is that the Army leadership's tradition of usurping extra-Constitutional authority when it suits its purposes is likely to continue. The present situation is merely a tactical retreat, only temporary.

The Army would be more than happy to stay in the Barracks if the politicians can do their job. The Army will only step in when the politicians are leading the nation into an oblivion, the present government is a perfect example of that.

 

[VCheng]

That is something we can only speculate. However, IF the trade liberalization lasts 5 years, it will almost certainly become impossible to roll back.


The veneer means that it does lose power even in a tactical retreat. The circumstances - both global and local - have changed. Harder to implement a coup now. At best they can pull strings on puppets behind the scene, but just like Nawaz Sharif, for how long will the puppets like to be controlled, eventually they want to move out.

You will have to give some examples or explanation here mate as to why you think that it is merely a tactical retreat and not a change in the external environment.

There is no change: I can only quote TaimiKhan's post below, which is very correct in showing the military's resolve not to let go of its primacy:

........
The military will never let go their position, till the time our politicians keep providing them that space & opportunity due to which military enjoys such a position. Till that day, there is no use of criticizing the military, as its not their fault, its the fault of our politicians who are incompetent & useless.

Well if health and education are getting less, whose fault is it ?? If 15-20% of the total budget goes into defence, then where does rest of the 85-80% goes ?? Where are the trilions of rupees going ?? And what about the effectiveness and efficiency of the current health & education budgets, has anyone talked about that. Has anyone talked how much goes into corruption. First we should make sure the current budget is properly utilized and then we should ask for more or question the defence budget. Defence budget is not the reason for low health & education budgets, its our own ineffectiveness that has led to that.

It is not a matter of fault, but rather more a matter of misdirected priorities, that is all.

The majority of the budget goes to debt servicing, followed by defence. These two items take up more than two-thirds of the budget. Everything else get the remainder.

And strange thing is, in these dictatorial times the country flourished more then ever and we can't say the same about the other side.

Yes, the economy has been more stable, but military rules causes other damage that runs wide and deep, with consequences over years and years.

The military will never let go their position, till the time our politicians keep providing them that space & opportunity due to which military enjoys such a position. Till that day, there is no use of criticizing the military, as its not their fault, its the fault of our politicians who are incompetent & useless. Just look at Turkey, how the once powerful military has been silenced, but its done through good deeds, not words.

I agree with you here that the military will not let go of its primacy.

And by looking at them, i & many Pakistanis like me prefer the Army over the politicians.

Yes, but only for now, only to prefer a change after about ten years of dictatorship.

 

[VCheng]

The defence expenditure forms almost 15% of the total budget, where exactly does the 85% of the budget go? ...........

Here you go, Sir, for 2012-13 budget:

from: http://www.finance.gov.pk/budget/Budget_in_Brief_2012_13.pdf


Expenses by vcheng552000, on Flickr


Exp-2 by vcheng552000, on Flickr


Exp-3 by vcheng552000, on Flickr


Exp-4 by vcheng552000, on Flickr


Exp-5 by vcheng552000, on Flickr

=============

Of the total expense of 2.6 trillion rupees:

Debt servicing is 925+215 billion, 44%

Defense budget is 648.2 billion, 25%:

Defense Affair and services = 545 billion
Military Pensions = 98 billion
PAEC = 40 billion
Defence Division = 3.2 billion
Defence Production Division = 2 billion

There goes nearly 70% of the budget.

 

[Jango]

Army has some corrupt figure in it's ranks, and corrupt practices do take place, but it is not as rampant and as common as in the civilian department.

Let's compare the lower levels in everyday affairs. In the Army, you have to account for every bullet, every kilo of ration, and every litre of petrol. Petrol is misused by certain 'Begums', but in the end, it is used within the limits that the ration permitted. When a gunman has to go with a school bus, he gets allotted a certain number of bullets, and when he goes to give back his gun to the armoury, the bullets are accounted for. While in the civilian department, Education workers in the government schools don't even bother to show up. The ghost schools are increasing in number every day.

As Taimi said, what great objective has the education and health department achieved with the present budget? Or is that the army's fault as well?

You may say whatever you want, but the PIA and Railway wasn't as bad with Mush as it is now, and wasn't looking as bad. Mass induction of PPP jiyalas has led to the downfall of these public institutions, and the CAA is also not quite what it was.

Army may have done a lot of bad things, but to simply shift the blame for every other thing towards the army would be very naive thinking.

 

[TaimiKhan]

VCheng, to tell you the truth, i never wished a change even after ten years, but all i wanted was a change in the head who was leading. I did wanted to continue but with a different man on the seat. The years of politics i have seen has made my resolve concrete that Army is our solution and not politicians, but army controlled setup more to be precise.

And with 15-20% budget to defence, does not means the our priority is defence, yeah with some 40% or 50% you were right, but not with a 15-20% budget figure. People mostly like you try to make or suggest it such, but facts and figures don't go with the assumption you guys make.

You turn PIA, WAPDA, railways & PS into if not profitable rather break even organizations, you save something which would be more then defence budget to be spend on education & health.

But first, make sure the already allocated budget to education and health is effectively and efficiently used and we see results, then add more.

I don't see military budget has any negative influence on budgets of other sectors.

 

[notorious_eagle]

Here you go, Sir, for 2012-13 budget:

Thank You for pointing it out, i was wrong. The defence budget accounts for 20% of the Total Budget, but that is expected as we need to maintain a conventional deterrence and we are paying out of our own pocket for the operations active in FATA. My question is, where exactly does the 80% of the budget go? Is there the same level of efficiency and accountability that is available in the Army?

I don't see military budget has any negative influence on budgets of other sectors.

It does not Sir, these Jiayalays of PPP just use this excuse to hide their own incompetence.

P.S. I am not stating that VCheng is a Jiyala of PPP, just making a general statement.

 

[TaimiKhan]

Here you go, Sir, for 2012-13 budget:

from: http://www.finance.gov.pk/budget/Budget_in_Brief_2012_13.pdf


Expenses by vcheng552000, on Flickr

Rs.512B went into Subsidies, wow.

What kind of subsidies ?? Electricity prices sky rocketed, gas prices up, fuel prices are up, other necessary daily items going up, where the hell is the subsidy going ?? PIA, WAPDA, Railways, PS and many many more.

Shouldn't that be our priority rather then going straight to military budget without thinking ??

I can assure you, even if you reduce 100B from degence budget and give it to others, 20B will be spent, rest will go in corruption.

Thank You for pointing it out, i was wrong. The defence budget accounts for 20% of the Total Budget, but that is expected as we need to maintain a conventional deterrence and we are paying out of our own pocket for the operations active in FATA. My question is, where exactly does the 80% of the budget go? Is there the same level of efficiency and accountability that is available in the Army?




It does not Sir, these Jiayalays of PPP just use this excuse to hide their own incompetence.

P.S. I am not stating that VCheng is a Jiyala of PPP, just making a general statement.

VCheng Sb is a Jiyala of someone else