Pakistan's NCO corps

[Tang0]

^^^
Of course, the chain of command is the chain of command. Anything that happens in platoon is in the end the responsibility of that 2nd Lt. He will be relived of command if he screws up often enough, or simply pushes his decisions off on the platoon Sgt. He is expect to exercise all the rights and responsibilities of an officer. I hope I didn't imply otherwise, this is mostly secondhand knowledge for me.

 

[S-2]

Tango,

If ratus ratus had your views correct, I can't fault them. Trust me that the company 1Sgt and C.O. will back-channel to the platoon sergeant until he signs off on the kid. Nobody's a fool and gonna walk in willful ignorance, especially now. So the company's leaders (C.O. X.O., 1st Sgt.) are watching along with the platoon sergeant. That's four sets of eyes on that young lieutenant.

Most of these units now have extensive stateside workups that shake a lot of things out and, fortunately, casualties aren't at all stressing our junior leadership so that young officers are being dropped into deployed units as a casualty replacement. If and when, the replacement officer at least will be coming from within the battalion where he's been awaiting a platoon.

 

[Xeric]

Sure. Does the physical fitness of an NCO in the PA play a significant role in the chances for his promotion? How precisely is promotion handled in the enlisted ranks? I assume that there is some type of cyclical performance review? Yearly, bi-annually?

Physical fitness plays a very vital role in the promotion of not only NCOs but also the Officers. It is taken very seriously and individuals are tested atleast twice in a year!

Failing the test is no excuse and getting less then 90% marks by youngsters (both men and officers) is again taken as 'achuut'.

Reports/citations are usually started with the words that whether the individual is physically fit or not.

A PT test failure is not promoted what so ever.

Now as far as the promotion criteria and methodology is concerned, that i'll leave inside the box for the obvious reason.

 

[Xeric]

Alright, here are my questions-

1.) SSG- IIRC, you've six battalions-all airborne qualified and highly skilled infantry. In fact to me they sound similar to U.S. Army Rangers. What's their career track for NCOs in particular?

They are highly trained and motivated. As far as the carrier track is concerned they always have the edge over an non-SSG NCO both in terms pay and allowances and promotions. Moreover, they always are visiting other countries either for training or to attend various courses, thus they have the obvious monetary edge. And when he retires he has better chances of getting adjusted into the civilian jobs.

2.) Do they rotate into the regular divisions to find rank and other leadership opportunities?

No.
Unless they leave SSG for guud. To stay inside the SSG they have to meet certain criteria during their entire stay inside the SSG.

4.) Can an NCO stay SSG their entire career?

Refer to serial 2 above.
in addition 5 years is must for an officer, i have to check regarding the NCOs

For officers, I presume that they move on to other slots and don't remain SSG. It would seem a career killer but I'd like to know more.

An officer getting inducted inside the SSG gets inducted permanently. Even if they are from services their parent arm is changed to some infantry unit, so that when they leave the SSG they don't come to a supply or ordnance unit.
Minimum 5 years stay is mandatory after that they are at will to revert back.

I've also some questions about NCO career development-

5.) Is there an NCO academy in the Pakistani army?

Yes JLA (Junior Leaders Academy) at Shikiari.

6.) If so, how many required leadership courses might a professional infantry NCO attend through his career from his enlistment to retirement?

Quite a few.
This include the basic and advance infantry courses, special to arm courses and other All Arm courses.

7.) Finally, how long is his career?

Depends upon the rank!
It varies from 18 to 30 years.

 

[S-2]

I'm appreciative. Thank you.

 

[Ratus Ratus]

S-2:
My comment are as I said based on my experience and also augmented with comments of other officers and senior NCOs.
Now as you said units have extensive stateside workups before deployment.
This I gather now sorts out any problems where they exist.

This coment is possibly the most useful for young LTs as it wil give them a better chance of picking up the ropes faster.
so that young officers are being dropped into deployed units as a casualty replacement. If and when, the replacement officer at least will be coming from within the battalion where he's been awaiting a platoon.
Which I gather means each Bn has a small group of surplus LTs in the background

One of the real big issues is the allocation of young LTs to the Pl Sgt. If this does not click quickly problems will occur. I know from weird experience.
I got given a Pl with a Sgt I did not want as I thought he was a nut case; he got a Pl commd he did not want because he thought I was a nut case. We both went separately to the 'almighty', the RSM, and complained wanting changes. He refused stating we were suited.
Within days I would not change my Pl Sgt for anything and he was not going to change his Pl commd. We were a tight team.

I have seen others where the Lt and Sgt got on, but the full concept of team aspect was not there, it was pure officer and Sgt interaction.

 

[Ratus Ratus]

TangO:
The Americans are not the only ones having problems with the ANA.

Digger's death exposes Afghan role | The Australian
Some Australian trainers are also understood to have expressed reservations about the fighting prowess of the Afghan army while on joint patrols.

I am not sure if this also reflects back on the incident and the death of Cpl Hopkins, or it’s a one liner slipped in.

I would also wonder if having a different uniform was a wise move.

 

[S-2]

"Which I gather means each Bn has a small group of surplus LTs in the background"

Very small and accounted for on the TDA (Table of Distributions & Authorizations). Staff assignments as Assistant Operations officer, chemical officer, or battalion motor officer working for the S-4 (Logistics, supply, maintenence).

You shuffle people internally to pick up the slack but it's expected within the staff that he'll be moving down to a platoon eventually.

These things get driven from higher as well (as you know). That lieutenant might find himself moving to a sister battalion out of need or opportunity as identified by the brigade personnel officer

 

[blain2]

Alright, here are my questions-

1.) SSG- IIRC, you've six battalions-all airborne qualified and highly skilled infantry. In fact to me they sound similar to U.S. Army Rangers. What's their career track for NCOs in particular?

The SSG was initially formed around the concept of a specialized infantry with the purpose of being used as a stay behind capability against the Soviets. All of the interaction between the SSG and their initial US trainers revolved around operators from the US Army SF groups coming over to Pakistan and training with the SSG (at that time it was simply known as the 19th Baloch regt). As such the mission profile of the SSG is much closer to the US Army Special Forces groups than the Rangers. US Army Rangers are essentially a specialized infantry. This is not the case with the SSG. The SSG does a lot of work that does not fall under the purview of a typical specialized infantry unit.

Besides Special Operations involving recce/surveillance and direct action type of work, there is also quite a bit of work done along the lines of FID training etc. with other countries and the Counter Terrorism piece.

The total composition of the SSG is up to 9 battalions (3 brigades) since its a Divisional command now.

2.) Do they rotate into the regular divisions to find rank and other leadership opportunities?

Officers eventually return to their parent units/arms after serving in the SSG for a minimum term of 5 years. Some stay on longer for two terms (there have been cases of SSG officers who have been lifers, but these are rare. Most do return to their units after serving with the group). Given the fact that now SSG is a divisional command, it is quite possible that many would find growth and promotions within the group while they serve in it. In the earlier days, it was quite normal for young Lts and Captains to get promotion while they were serving in the SSG. With the raising of additional battalions and brigades, now there are opportunities for promotions to higher ranks from within. However a lot of the senior SSG officers (CO's, Brigade commanders etc.) are pulled back into the SSG having left it after doing their first 5 years. So they go back to their units, get experience in staff jobs and as field officers (Majs, Lt Cols, Cols) and then are accommodated back into the group as a staff officer or CO of one of the battalions. On the topic of NCOs, see below.

3.) Are they expected to do so as a way of seeding the forces with quality NCOs from an elite corps?

NCOs and ORs do not leave SSG in the manner the officers do. Reason being the answer to #4.

4.) Can an NCO stay SSG their entire career?

NCO/JCOs typically serve in the SSG for life as long as they are physically fit. If not then they are returned to their units. A vast majority of NCOs/JCOs are in the SSG till they retire.

For officers, I presume that they move on to other slots and don't remain SSG. It would seem a career killer but I'd like to know more.

See answer to #2. I do not think that having served in the SSG is considered a career killer as such. Infantry units are always happy to see their officers go to the SSG and then re-join the unit. Other arms have other issues. As an example, an Artillery officer may find that the service in the SSG did not have a huge impact on his career in the Artillery, but overall a lot of it has to do with aptitude and desire. I do not think that most young Lts and Captains are thinking that far out in terms of their career planning to see the service in the SSG as a detriment to their professional growth and it usually is not. Officers who have served in the SSG are typically well respected for the experience they bring to the job. There is the usual special vs. non special jealousies and rivalries but those go on pretty much everywhere.

I've also some questions about NCO career development-

5.) Is there an NCO academy in the Pakistani army?

Yes in Shinkiari, NWFP.

6.) If so, how many required leadership courses might a professional infantry NCO attend through his career from his enlistment to retirement?

I do not know the exact answer to that. As I mentioned, leadership courses are provided in a structured format at the JLA in Shinkiari. If I recall correctly, the course runs for the duration of one year. How many courses on leadership/advance leadership etc. are run within it is beyond me. I would think that some officer who has been on the faculty of the JLA would know this better.

7.) Finally, how long is his career?

Most ORs, NCOs and JCOs retire in their 40s or at the latest in their early 50s. That typically works out to be about a 32 year career (at its longest) in the Army.

Also see this:
DefenseLink News Article: U.S., Afghan NCOs Exchange Ideas, Strengthen Ties With Pakistani Troops

 

[S-2]

Thank you for the detailed and informative answer. It removes a number of questions.

Yes, U.S. Army Rangers are specialized assault infantry. Forced entry is the name of their game. This is a different ball of wax and I can now see that.

With the growth of SSG to a divisional force the three brigade staffs and a divisional staff would allow for greater career opportunities entirely within SSG for both NCOs and officers.

My previous concern was that SSG wasn't sufficiently large to accomodate the enhanced training/learning opportunities afforded officers and NCOs by moving both vertically and laterally. A division sized element enhances those opportunities dramatically. Officers had the ability to move outside the organization for such but NCOs didn't.

This mitigates against the professional development downside that those NCOs might otherwise experience.

Again, thank you.

 

[blain2]

I'm appreciative. Thank you.

I too am appreciative of the discourse that took place on the on-goings inside of the US and the Australian Armies. Very interesting to see how things work out at the unit level. Thanks to you, Tango and Ratus for that.

 

[S-2]

Oh, thanks for the interesting article.

This is a very interesting level at which to consider exchanges. I know that tactical exchanges occur among affected units along the border. I believe they meet at Torkum and other local checkpoints but I'm unaware of more formal exchanges at higher levels.

Don't know what your military experience is so, if an aviator, I've no idea at what level exchanges occur there though aware that Red Flag may be a consideration. Still that's not an "exchange".

For the army, I'm certain that we've not exchanged officer instructors or liaison officers for our branch schools. I'd very much like to see that happen. Both of our respective armies suffer from a lack of knowledge or misperceptions about basic competencies. I don't suspect the same exists with our air forces but I might be wrong.

Anyway, I few thoughts.

Thank you.

 

[blain2]

Sure. Does the physical fitness of an NCO in the PA play a significant role in the chances for his promotion? How precisely is promotion handled in the enlisted ranks? I assume that there is some type of cyclical performance review? Yearly, bi-annually?

I just saw this post amongst many others so will try to respond.

Physical fitness is one aspect that plays a part in the promotion, however it is certainly not the only part. You also have to keep in mind that beyond the age of 40, there are certain relaxations in terms of physical performance for officers and NCOs/JCOs (by this time the latter are fairly senior NCOs or they have made it to the ranks of JCOs).

On the topic of the promotion of the NCOs, they are handled slightly differently than the officers who have the feedback of their COs included into their ACRs (Annual Confidential Reports) and sent to the GHQ.

For the NCO/JCO cadres, their ACRs are reviewed and subject to input by the CO of the unit and other key staff such as the 2IC, company/battery (pick your arm) commanders in the unit. Based on this evaluation of their performance which happens, if I recall correctly, twice a year, the recommendations for promotions are forwarded out to the senior HQ for processing etc. So the difference here is that for NCO/JCOs, the decision for their promotion is taken at the unit level by the CO whereas for officers the decision is taken by the GHQ after taking a look at factors such as performance in service, passing of the promotion exams (This is usually what the ACR is comprised of) and also their seniority in terms of their course/batch commissioning (this is the case up until Major). Beyond the rank of Major, it gets rather subjective.

 

[blain2]

Oh, thanks for the interesting article.

This is a very interesting level at which to consider exchanges. I know that tactical exchanges occur among affected units along the border. I believe they meet at Torkum and other local checkpoints but I'm unaware of more formal exchanges at higher levels.

Don't know what your military experience is so, if an aviator, I've no idea at what level exchanges occur there though aware that Red Flag may be a consideration. Still that's not an "exchange".

For the army, I'm certain that we've not exchanged officer instructors or liaison officers for our branch schools. I'd very much like to see that happen. Both of our respective armies suffer from a lack of knowledge or misperceptions about basic competencies. I don't suspect the same exists with our air forces but I might be wrong.

Anyway, I few thoughts.

Thank you.

Muradk would be the best person to respond to the exchange of officers on the aviation side as he can speak to it from personal experience. As far as I am aware, he has done some instruction work in the US as well.

I know that we have exchanged officers with the British Army and even RAF. We have had some of our officers serve on the faculty of the RAF schools on visits and quite a few liaise with various Royal Army units.

In terms of the United States, I think the participation has been limited to attending courses mostly. Just your Command and General Staff College in Ft. Leavenworth has hosted about a 100 Pakistani officers (the current chief is also an alumni of CGSC among a few others). I am aware of quite a few coming over to the Pakistani Staff College as well over the years, however not sure about the numbers. But again, this is not an instructor exchange. Mostly i student or coordinating capacities.

 

[PAFAce]

Well, since the American, Australian and Pakistani Spec. Ops. seem to be well represented here, I think some information about the Canadians won't hurt. The main Canadian Special Operations Force is known as the Joint Task Force Two (JTF2).

According to the Canadian Forces website:
"JTF 2 is responsible for providing to Canada a force capable of rendering armed assistance in the resolution of an issue or a potential issue that affects national security. While JTF 2’s primary role is counter-terrorism, its personnel can be employed in any type of military operations, which include, but are not limited to, surveillance, security advice and close personal protection. "

Not much is known about the activities of the JTF2 outside of the Canadian Forces, as should be the case with any true Spec Ops Force. However, we do know that they have been involved in Afghanistan, Kosovo and many other conflicts in which the UN and NATO have played important roles. The command of the JTF2 falls to the Canadian Special Operations Forces Command - CANSOFCOM. It's role and capabilities have been compared to the Green Berets and the SAS in some places, but I am not sure how reliable these sources are. Also, although I cannot prove this, I think it is safe to assume that much of the training they receive is probably down in the States with other American Special Operations Forces.

The Canadian Forces are also in the process of establishing a Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) to "provide back-up to Joint Task Force 2 (JTF-2), the Canadian Forces (CF) main special operating forces (SOF) unit; and to provide the CF with a SOF unit that can be deployed anywhere in Canada or internationally."

I am not sure exactly how the roles and capabilities of the JTF2 compare with those of the SSG, US Special Forces, Special Air Service etc. mainly due to my limited knowledge of these units. I look forward to some informed comparison by those more knowledgeable than I am.

Sources:
Joint Task Force Two Homepage
CBC News In Depth: Canada's Military
Joint Task Force 2 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Canadian Special Operations Forces Command - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia