Pakistan's NCO corps

[Ratus Ratus]

Yes, I was drawing a comparison between the JCO ranks and the warrant officer rank found in the commonwealth nations and the US. Thank you for elaborating.

Small point the US Warrent rank is NOT compatiable to the Commonwealth Warrent Ranks. It has no relationship.

small outline of Commonwealth and US structures:

Private (PVT/PV2) E-2 &Private First Class (PFC) E-3
Private - Commonwealth

Specialist (SPC) E-4
Non existent embedded in rank qualifications and pay scale, specialisation dependant on Corps.

Corporal (CPL) E-4
L Cpl - Commonwealth
Expected to make some level of self determination in tactical issues.

Sergeant (SGT) E-5
Staff Sergeant (SSG) E-6
Cpl – Commonwealth
Expected to make some level of self determination in tactical issues.

Sergeant First Class (SFC) E-7
Sgt – Commonwealth
Supports the Pl Commd. My be a pl commd if no LTs due to staffing issues or other battle reasons.

Master Sergeant (MSG) E-8 at Bn level
Non existent

First Sergeant (1SG) E-8 at Coy level
WO2 – Commonwealth called Company Sergeant Major, (CSM) or Squadron Sergeant Major (SSM)

Sergeant Major (SGM) E-9 – Bn level
WO1 – Battalion Sergeant Major, or normally called Regimental Sergeant Major, (RSM)
The Brigade level is a bit of an oddity but exists, rank being WO1. I am not sure if it ties in directly with the US equivalent well.

SERGEANT MAJOR OF THE ARMY E-9
WO1 – RSM of the Army.

The US WO grades don’t exist in the commonwealth system.

Now there is a SSgt within the Commonwealth Sen NCOs but this is a position normally reserved for the Bn/coy Q guy or BN HQ Admin. It is not a direct command position in the rank structure.

With officers it is a bit more confusing due to the lack of direct parity.

Fundamentally Commonwealth 2LTs and LTs run platoons. 2LTs are not kitbags they are expected to perform as officers, ie make decisions on their own moment to moment.
A senior LT may be in BN HQ or assigned the Bn Int. We don’t use 1LT it is just LT. A LT may also be posted to Ack Adjt with in a Bn, nasty admin job.
A senior LT may also depending on staffing be a coy 2IC but not often and he/she would have to be bloody good.

A Commonwealth CPT will normally be a coy 2IC. A CPT may also be employed in BN HQ. Some typical roles being Ops and also Adjt. May depending on staffing be coy OC as well, again not something handed out easily.
A CPT may also be the Pl commd of special pls within a Bn, then the Pl 2IC is a LT.
Also a CPT is the lowest rank to instruct at any Officer Trg centre.

A Commonwealth Maj is a Coy Commd. May be assigned to such BN posts as BN Ops commd, and also as Bn 2IC.

A LTCOL similar to the US one.

After that it gets a bit messy and not easy to make comparisons.

 

[blain2]

TangO:
Are you sure you have a grasp on what NCOs, WOs and Lts do in a Commonwealth army and their standings and ops requirements?

Some of your comments seem to me to be heavily US mil centric which does NOT reflect Commonwealth armies.

I suspect the comparison is being done on a 1:1 basis between the non-commissioned cadres of the US Armed forces and the Pakistani side, however you point is valid that this comparison is more appropriate between the Pakistani side and their Commonwealth counterparts. Here too, if you compare the Pakistani NCOs/JCOs to their Indian, Gurkha, BD and SL counterparts, they are in a very decent standing (others have some very good ones too), but overall the level of education in these cadres (barring maybe SL) is low.

On the topic of the NCO/JCOs, I thought this brief documentary provided a good insight into certain aspects of the NCO/JCO lives at the PMA.

 

[fatman17]

there was a site which compared ranks and military awards/medals of different armies, somehow got deleted from my favorites menu.

 

[blain2]

There are many sites out there. The one here shows the JCO/NCO ranks at the bottom. All of the shoulder epaulets with a red stripe denote JCO ranks.

Army Rank

For a Pakistan vs. NATO comparison, see this:
Pakistan Army Ranks - Pakistan Defence Gallery

 

[Xeric]

In the Pakistani artillery, the person in charge of the Firefinder ALR would be an officer (Lt, 2nd Lt) however there would be NCOs supporting him. The issue again is the level of technical education. Most of the officers in Pakistan are either put through the University curriculum in the PMA or are taken in as graduate officers (similar to ROTC route going in for a commission). This is not the case for the NCOs and JCOs. There is an exception to the case where those NCOs and JCOs showing aptitude are pushed up to the PMA and then commissioned.

To add more, now a days special attention is being paid on this aspect. Many individuals from the Non-Commission cadre have joined the officer lot previously, and now to make this thing even more practical Gen Kiyan has relaxed the age for serving personnels for eligibility to join the Army till 25 years!!

This was just announced and i m sure by the next intake of PMA this would be implemented thus favoring many soldiers who became ineligible because of their age.

 

[Ratus Ratus]

I deliberately ignored education levels. There are several reasons for this the main being Corps. Hence a Cpl in say Electrical and Mechanical Engineers will be educationally better qualified as he/she will have at a minimum a trade qualification vs say an Inf Cpl.

But qualification minimum entry is nation dependent so it is not really an appropriate measure. The best is that of responsibility and the amount of self determination in execution of orders as appropriate to the rank. This changes for each nation so can be used as a cross nation measure.

As a simple example we will demand lots more from even our 2LTs straight out of RMC than say the US will from their 2LTs at equivelent start point.

 

[PAFAce]

As a simple example we will demand lots more from even our 2LTs straight out of RMC than say the US will from their 2LTs at equivelent start point.

I don't understand the reason for the last statement, could you please elaborate? Are 2nd Lts. not equally qualified in Australia and the US?

Canada, I believe, has a similar system as the Australians. We have a common Royal Military College, from where you graduate as a 2nd Lt. for all services; Army, Maritime Forces and Air Force (though the branches are all integrated under one command, the Canadian Forces). I was under the assumption that a 2nd Lt. out of West Point (or whatever their Army college equivalent is) was as qualified as a 2nd Lt. out of Pakistan Military Academy or RMC. Is this not the case?

Also, in my previous post, I assumed by NCO Tang0 meant everyone who is not an Officer (Sargeant and below). I made the assumption because his example was of a Private. It makes comparison that much easier.

 

[Ratus Ratus]

Firstly, and from memory as I have not check recently, officers coming out of RMC are either 2LTs or LTs depending on some background. An officer that has gone through ADFA and has a university degree then goes to RMC and comes out as a LT normally. People off the street with no degree go straight to RMC and will graduate as a 2LT, unless they have some special degree, eg doctor etc.
A person off the street normally undertakes longer time at RMC vs an ADFA graduate. ADFA, Australian Defence Force Academy, it is the university side of officer trg. RMC is the military side of trg.
All services go to ADFA. Army only goes to RMC. Air Force and Navy have their own trg establishments.

Now making an assumption, and going on experience as well as comment from other officers, the US 2LT is more of a kitbag to the PL Sgt, vs the Aust 2LT/new LT. The new US 2LT is still in serious trg mode and as TangO mentioned the Pl Sgt is there to undertake the moment to moment control. The Aust 2LT/new LT, and this also relates to UK and no doubt Canada, takes control and is making the moment to moment decisions in the field.

Again much is based on what I have seen and also on what other officers have seen of US 2LTs vs Aust 2LTs/new LTs. There seems to be a base knowledge difference in favour of the Aust LTs. And before some one jumps in, sorry but no bias in this based on experience.

 

[Tang0]

To Ratus Ratus: I don't know anything about the specific structure of the commonwealth military really, just that a rank called "Warrant Officer" existed as well. Thanks for all of that info.

As for the comparison of officers, that gets tricky. There are many paths to commissioning in the US, and each branch does it slightly differently. ROTC(Reserve Officer Training Course) is a 4 year long in college program where the summers are spent in field training. In the military academies cadets spend 4 years dealing with military ideas and being inoculated to military culture and practice 24/7. They have cadet ranks, formations, lots of PT, etc.

Officer candidate school on the other hand pumps out "12 week wonders". Basically,OCS is the officer equivalent of boot camp, and candidates are simply college educated recruits. The Marines try to alleviate this by sending their OCS graduates to a "Basic School" for 6 months of seasoning before they head of to their various technical schools. The Army, Navy, and Air Force do not. At the same time, many OCS graduates are former enlisted personnel, who are already comfortable with military culture, and are simply coming back from an educational hiatus.

All of this leads to wildly differing quality as far as fresh 2nd Lt.'s or ensigns are concerned.

To PAFace:

An NCO is a non-commissioned officer. Basically, any person who does not hold a commission but is responsible for leading other people. So, anyone who has been promoted 3 or 4 times from the lowest rank usually fits in this category.

 

[Ratus Ratus]

TangO:
All of this leads to wildly differing quality as far as fresh 2nd Lt.'s or ensigns are concerned.

That leads to a freaking huge problem even if you just look at the US Army.

One army, one standard.
Even out NCOs going in for offr trg get 12 - 18 months of RMC.

 

[Tang0]

TangO:
All of this leads to wildly differing quality as far as fresh 2nd Lt.'s or ensigns are concerned.

That leads to a freaking huge problem even if you just look at the US Army.

One army, one standard.
Even out NCOs going in for offr trg get 12 - 18 months of RMC.

Perhaps, maybe S-2 can provide more details.

The long and short of it is that the US military is enormous when compared to any of the commonwealth nations. The Australian Defense forces have 53,167 active personnel according to Wikipedia, while the US military has 1,444,553 active personnel, and almost as many reserve and national guard troops who are deployed not to infrequently. The US Department of Defense does what it has to in order to meet its manpower needs.

Anyway, this is all off topic, the thread was about the PA NCO corps, and I would like to keep it there if possible.

 

[blain2]

Let me know when you guys want to get back on the topic! Not suggesting that you guys should stop discussing what happens in the Australian and the US Armies. Its rather interesting.

The funny thing is that when you folks talk about the intake from ROTC, OCS, or the more traditional military academies (USMA, VMI etc.) for commissioning into the US Army and the RMC and ADFA in Australia/Canada, at least the various conduits for intake into the Army seem very similar to what goes on in Pakistan.

 

[Tang0]

Let me know when you guys want to get back on the topic! Not suggesting that you guys should stop discussing what happens in the Australian and the US Armies. Its rather interesting.

The funny thing is that when you folks talk about the intake from ROTC, OCS, or the more traditional military academies (USMA, VMI etc.) for commissioning into the US Army and the RMC and ADFA in Australia/Canada, at least the various conduits for intake into the Army seem very similar to what goes on in Pakistan.

Sure. Does the physical fitness of an NCO in the PA play a significant role in the chances for his promotion? How precisely is promotion handled in the enlisted ranks? I assume that there is some type of cyclical performance review? Yearly, bi-annually?

 

[S-2]

"The new US 2LT is still in serious trg mode and as TangO mentioned the Pl Sgt is there to undertake the moment to moment control."

No. 2Lts are expected to exercise their command prerogotives and responsibilities as platoon leaders. HOWEVER- judgement is an element of their officer evaluation. That said, an American, Australian, Pakistani or any other 2Lt or equivalent (frankly up to a Maj. OC) would do well to listen to his platoon sergeant.

Most platoon sergeants have 10-13 years of service and, at this point, have deployed in combat on multiple tours. Most are nearly fit to run a company. The advantages are obvious and the PSG's advice SHOULD weigh heavily in any young but wise lieutenant's decision criteria.

Wherever possible, we'll provide that young officer with enough rope to run or hang himself-within reason. If a danger to his troops and others, he gets moved. No lack of other young and eager lieutenants looking for platoon command.

This is a big boy war and that's a 22 year old 2Lt on a COP in the Korengal. He doesn't hold the respect of his platoon long if he can't hack it. In the end, the chain of command stands.

Sorry, the comment read sufficiently incorrect that it merited correction. No offense and a perfectly common view I've heard expressed before but, IMV, inaccurate.

These young men are expected to hit the ground running as platoon leaders.

 

[S-2]

Alright, here are my questions-

1.) SSG- IIRC, you've six battalions-all airborne qualified and highly skilled infantry. In fact to me they sound similar to U.S. Army Rangers. What's their career track for NCOs in particular?

2.) Do they rotate into the regular divisions to find rank and other leadership opportunities?

3.) Are they expected to do so as a way of seeding the forces with quality NCOs from an elite corps?

4.) Can an NCO stay SSG their entire career?

For officers, I presume that they move on to other slots and don't remain SSG. It would seem a career killer but I'd like to know more.

I've also some questions about NCO career development-

5.) Is there an NCO academy in the Pakistani army?

6.) If so, how many required leadership courses might a professional infantry NCO attend through his career from his enlistment to retirement?

7.) Finally, how long is his career?

Thanks. I know it's a lot of questions but I'm intrigued by the professional facilities offered to your officers and wondering whether the same or more is reflected in the NCO development process.