Pakistan's Nawaz Sharif calls Taliban for peace talks

[Chak Bamu]

And the solution was almost reached until Musharraf destroyed the peace plan and attacked Lal Masjid Mr

Musharraf was at his dictatorial worst on four occasions:

1. Deliberate humiliation of deposed elected PM.
2. Targeted killing of Akbar Bugti.
3. Over-ruling appointed negotiators and attacking Lal Masjid.
4. Harassment of Judges for not towing his directions.

Democracy is completely in contradiction with Islam Mr in Islam their can be no political parties second the person who himself comes in front and ask people to make him leader can't be made leader Sir

Kingship and dictatorship is the complete opposite of Islamic ideals. But Ulema would not tell you that because they silently supported this system for 12 centuries and provided excuses. How do kings assume power? Even such brilliant people as Aurangzeb and Salahuddin Ayubi? Do you have the honesty to apply your criteria to them?

If someone finds fault with political parties then there is something wrong with their education. They need to be taught basics of political science and evolution of political thought. One, two, or more political parties are necessary for functioning of a modern state. Even medieval monarchies of Gulf are trying to reform themselves with limited versions of representative legislative assemblies.

I am not questioning relevant hadith. I am questioning the mindset that keeps us from developing our version of democratic system according to our aspirations and traditions. Try to study the world view of TTP. You would find that they use similar objections and then justify their actions. This is fitna. Anti-democracy ulema support this fitna with their rhetoric. Like I said, at best this is intellectual laziness.

Wohi toh main bhi keh raha hoon, tum Shariah law walay ho hi terrorist khoon ke pyasay. Thank you for agreeing that Shariah Law's definition for you guys is nothing but katlogharat.

Buddy count me on the side of Shariah. I am just one more of the terrorist khoon ke pyasay types, if you will.

Where did you get your education?

 

[RabzonKhan]

Sir their is no other option other than to bring these Ulemas in I am talking about Sami ul Haq but Fazlur Rahman can also be helpful in talks

They consider democracy kufr mr if they enter it they will become part of kufr Sir that is government has to bring Ulemas in Ulemas like Molana Sami ul Haq and also Mufti Rafi Usmani and Mufti Naeem and others

Zarvan, I have two questions for you:

1. On one hand you say democracy is “kufr” and “if they enter it they will become part of kufr”, but then you call Sami ul Haq and Fazlur Rahman “Ulemas”, when you very well know that both of them are political Mullah’s and have been taking part in elections for years, so don't you think you're contradicting yourself?

2. If my memory serves me right, I remember you used to be part of the conspiracy brigade, who keeps on saying that TTP is sponsored by USA and India, so what made you change your mind?

 

[notsuperstitious]

@Rabzon, I've concluded zarvan and the likes are incapable of following principles and logic as their guiding light because their minds have no room for doubt, they think they are RIGHT because they are doing gods work.

You have asked an absolutely brilliant question about political mullahs indulging in kufr, and you also know the answer will only disappoint you in its adherence to any principle or logic.

 

[Mitro]

I think Pakistan should wait for one more year then their will be no TTP and their well wisher.

Ganza Sharif jal bazi nahi karo nahi to is bar exile upper ki taraf jaiga.

 

[Secur]

And the solution was almost reached until Musharraf destroyed the peace plan and attacked Lal Masjid Mr

No solution was ever reached with the militants .

Did they agree to surrender and cease violence and stop kidnapping people and taking control of buildings like they were doing ? If no , then the Ulemas were of no use there because face it , the militants are interested in nothing but bloodshed .

The government offered Rs. 5,000 (equivalent to $83 USDs or £41 GBP), plus a free education, to anyone exiting the mosque unarmed.Women inside the mosque were also offered safe passage to their homes. Successive deadlines were extended, as mosque leaders allowed some students to surrender, requiring security forces to renegotiate extensions. - Excerpt from article

Time was given and those who refused to come outside , surrender and return to their homes and instead fired at the forces , met their fates . There was nothing else that the Govt could do , the students were supposed to study in the mosque and madarsah , not to make it a war zone bunker stockpiling weapons for war with the Govt , no to parade with bambos , not to take law in their hands and worst of all , not to create a " state inside the state " because no state would tolerate it . Already , Islamabad was being portrayed in International media as being slowly going into terrorist control and the foreign countries were closing their embassies .

We were left but with one option .

 

[Secur]

I am questioning the mindset that keeps us from developing our version of democratic system according to our aspirations and traditions. Try to study the world view of TTP. You would find that they use similar objections and then justify their actions. This is fitna. Anti-democracy ulema support this fitna with their rhetoric. Like I said, at best this is intellectual laziness.

Mate , if you know the history of Pakistan , no religious political party has ever secured victory and more importantly majority required to form Govt alone or with other religious parties and most important of all , that required to legislate single handedly for Islamic laws in the country in elections and instead formed Govt either with the army's or establishment help or in coalition with the same secular,liberal ones they detest most that too in a certain province or for a couple of seats in Central most of the times ? How should I understand it and what else should I call it , if not hypocrisy ?

Second , if the militants think that the general populace somehow wants their " distorted beyond recognition intolerant and barbaric version of Islam " and would support them supposedly , then why is it that they do not participate in elections because face it , the masses are with them as they say all the time ? They can participate , easily win as per their believe and then legislate for Islamic laws if the majority so desires , there's provision in the current constitution for that , infact these are the first few lines of it . Why is it that they resort to the violent path of terrorizing people to enforce their views on them , instead of respecting the people's choice and asking them what " system of governance " do they want ? Because , nobody would allow a couple thousand religious psychopaths to enforce their ideology and what they consider to be way of life on the " silent majority " . The same Pakistani people who despite all threats and not so good law and order situation in the country and with all the terrorism happening around , chose to participate in the elections with a heavy turnout rate and supported the diplomatic process by their participation , even the ones who didn't use to vote , came out to vote .

I appreciate the courage of my dear countrymen to safeguard their freedom

 

[Secur]

Kingship and dictatorship is the complete opposite of Islamic ideals. But Ulema would not tell you that because they silently supported this system for 12 centuries and provided excuses. How do kings assume power? Even such brilliant people as Aurangzeb and Salahuddin Ayubi? Do you have the honesty to apply your criteria to them?

Precisely .

For the sake of argument , let us accept , the democracy isn't Islamic .

Political parties are against Islam , it is wrong to let the common men have a say in the matter of the country and society and to choose the Govt of the liking of majority .

Then how exactly does it happen that absolute monarchies and dictatorships have suddenly became Islamic with their ultimate powers and no other authority to keep a " check and balance " on them ? Because , the monarch was all the time , giving positions of power to those people whom he considered loyal to him and not on merit and honestly . Islamic history is filled with countless such examples .

Can the same people find the courage to declare the " House of Saud " and the " Ayatollahs " way of Govt as unIslamic ? The latter is actually in many ways , better than the first allowing the diplomatic process to continue somehow however the agenda and the dominance remains same .

 

[Zarvan]

Wohi toh main bhi keh raha hoon, tum Shariah law walay ho hi terrorist khoon ke pyasay. Thank you for agreeing that Shariah Law's definition for you guys is nothing but katlogharat.

shariah will be implemented and traitors of Islam will be taken out and made part of history

No solution was ever reached with the militants .

Did they agree to surrender and cease violence and stop kidnapping people and taking control of buildings like they were doing ? If no , then the Ulemas were of no use there because face it , the militants are interested in nothing but bloodshed .

The government offered Rs. 5,000 (equivalent to $83 USDs or £41 GBP), plus a free education, to anyone exiting the mosque unarmed.Women inside the mosque were also offered safe passage to their homes. Successive deadlines were extended, as mosque leaders allowed some students to surrender, requiring security forces to renegotiate extensions. - Excerpt from article

Time was given and those who refused to come outside , surrender and return to their homes and instead fired at the forces , met their fates . There was nothing else that the Govt could do , the students were supposed to study in the mosque and madarsah , not to make it a war zone bunker stockpiling weapons for war with the Govt , no to parade with bambos , not to take law in their hands and worst of all , not to create a " state inside the state " because no state would tolerate it . Already , Islamabad was being portrayed in International media as being slowly going into terrorist control and the foreign countries were closing their embassies .

We were left but with one option .

Mr solution was reached but musharraf destroyed and murdered several in the mosque and yazeed musharraf did this on daddy USA orders

@Rabzon, I've concluded zarvan and the likes are incapable of following principles and logic as their guiding light because their minds have no room for doubt, they think they are RIGHT because they are doing gods work.

You have asked an absolutely brilliant question about political mullahs indulging in kufr, and you also know the answer will only disappoint you in its adherence to any principle or logic.

you lack knowledge and no knowledge of this area so stop commenting and coming up with crap

 

[Zarvan]

Zarvan, I have two questions for you:

1. On one hand you say democracy is “kufr” and “if they enter it they will become part of kufr”, but then you call Sami ul Haq and Fazlur Rahman “Ulemas”, when you very well know that both of them are political Mullah’s and have been taking part in elections for years, so don't you think you're contradicting yourself?

2. If my memory serves me right, I remember you used to be part of the conspiracy brigade, who keeps on saying that TTP is sponsored by USA and India, so what made you change your mind?

some of them are but mostly they are those tribals who are looking for revenge because your army attacked them and killed thousand for two years and than in 2006 they formed TTP to take revenge and samiul Haq is teacher off mullah Omar and many other Taliban

 

[Secur]

tribals who are looking for revenge because your army attacked them and killed thousand for two years

Any link ? Any evidence ? Any source ? Any proof ?

What solution was reached with terrorists at Red Mosque if you can enlighten us all , I already wrote a whole long paragraph to explain the situation to you detailing the amenities and the lucrative offers the so called " Yazeed Musharraf " gave to those who surrendered and ceased fighting against the state and their own army . What the heck was your response except what you repeated in the first post ?

Learn to talk with " facts " and " logic " instead of this autobot mode and same things being repeated again and again in response to extremely different questions .

@fateh71

You were right on this one , even though I personally knew it for long .

 

[Dillinger]

@Secur

Bro this here is a minefield..its turned into a religious discussion, what is sharia, kufr and what not. So its a bit dicey.

The question is, do the terrorists want to negotiate in good faith? I doubt it, they'll just regroup and come after you again. They've slaughtered 40000 innocent citizens of Pakistan. If SL could wipe out the LTTE then I see no reason why, given time and effort, Pakistan can't wipe out the TTP. Don't fall for the low hanging fruits or the easy way out. Go the whole way, as disingenuous as that sounds when spoken of between us- two people who have never seen and probably never will see combat or true terror, and wipe them out. Otherwise they will fester and rise again to engulf you.

 

[Zarvan]

Any link ? Any evidence ? Any source ? Any proof ?

Learn to talk with " facts " and " logic " instead of this autobot mode and same things being repeated again and again in response to extremely different questions .

@fateh71

You were right on this one , even though I personally knew it for long .

Mr you living in denial your army entered in end off 2003 in tribal areas started killing people and at the end off 2006 ttp was formed and tribals started taking revenge let this war end and you will that your army did worst things than what they even did in Bangladesh Sir and secular jerks are always two busy in pleasing daddy USA

 

[Secur]

@Dillinger

I have no interest in this " what is Islamic and what isn't " because everybody has a different opinion of it and I personally respect that , mate . What I dislike most is this support for the terrorists calling them as savior and not being able to back up your arguments with credible sources and most importantly " logic " .

No , they do not . Terrorists only offer to cease fire and negotiate when their supply routes are closed or they are cornered by the army . Both the conditions are true at the moment , the army has actually encircled the militants and they are left only in control of small pockets in tribal areas . True , they just need time to regroup and attack again like they did in Swat back then after the first operation . What exactly are we going to talk with them on , if they do not even accept our constitution , consider democracy as " unislamic " and the army " infidel " ? Their conditions are ever increasing and ridiculous . We have had enough experiences from the past and nobody's going to repeat that mistake , even Nawaz Sharif requires approval from GHQ before even thinking of doing any such thing !

The Lankans are a very fine example , they never thought of giving up even in the worst of situations and I do not understand why should we ? When actually , the fight in the tribal areas is nearing its end and the militants are reduced to a few " hit and run " attacks . If we could sacrifice 50,000 lives for safeguarding our freedom , I see no reason why we must give up now when we are close to victory .

Mr you living in denial your army entered in end off 2003 in tribal areas started killing people

secular jerks are always two busy in pleasing daddy USA

Yes , only your local Mullah is the enlightened one ! Any link ? Any evidence ? Any source ? Any proof ? I will try again even though I know the answer wont be any different .

How very Islamic of you ! Secular jerks ? Explain to me the meaning/concept of " secularism " . You do not even know that just like you do not understand different systems of governance .

 

[Zarvan]

@Dillinger

I have no interest in this " what is Islamic and what isn't " because everybody has a different opinion of it and I personally respect that , mate . What I dislike most is this support for the terrorists calling them as savior and not being able to back up your arguments with credible sources and most importantly " logic " .

No , they do not . Terrorists only offer to cease fire and negotiate when their supply routes are closed or they are cornered by the army . Both the conditions are true at the moment , the army has actually encircled the militants and they are left only in control of small pockets in tribal areas . True , they just need time to regroup and attack again like they did in Swat back then after the first operation . What exactly are we going to talk with them on , if they do not even accept our constitution , consider democracy as " unislamic " and the army " infidel " ? Their conditions are ever increasing and ridiculous . We have had enough experiences from the past and nobody's going to repeat that mistake , even Nawaz Sharif requires approval from GHQ before even thinking of doing any such thing !

The Lankans are a very fine example , they never thought of giving up even in the worst of situations and I do not understand why should we ? When actually , the fight in the tribal areas is nearing its end and the militants are reduced to a few " hit and run " attacks . If we could sacrifice 50,000 lives for safeguarding our freedom , I see no reason why we must give up now when we are close to victory .



Yes , only your local Mullah is the enlightened one ! Any link ? Any evidence ? Any source ? Any proof ? I will try again even though I know the answer wont be any different .

How very Islamic of you ! Secular jerks ? Explain to me the meaning/concept of " secularism " . You do not even know that just like you do not understand different systems of governance .

I know the concept of secularism and its complete kufr Sir and by the way you will know let this war end and after that you will know how mass killings has been done by army from 2003 to this date and how many villages destroyed How thousands of civilians killed by your Armed Forces

 

[Farooq]

TTP is a ideology, and can only be defeated by ideology alone. Peace talks should continue under Pakistani Constitution. Also NS should now call Islamic Scholars from all sects to review Pakistani Constitution and bring what ever to be done to make it compliant with Shariah or give it clearance chit, to end this ideology once and for all..

Until or unless scholars (mufti, educated scholars) don't stand up with the government, this ideology will continue to survive.


PS: I am still not sure who is TTP leader in Pakistan, and whom NS will going to talk. unless NS is planning to bring wildcard into front. USA is leaving in 2014 any ways. So may be good time to bring this wildcard.




They call Pakistan as unIslamic state, just remove that... They are good as dead.

The Ulema of AhleSunnah Wul Jummah have been denouncing terrorism for a long time, but it is the Deobandi / Wahabis that don't want it to end. In fact, they are the perpetrators of terrorism not in just Pakistan, but globally.