Pakistan's Mirage 2000 Saga

[SABRE]

What about some more upgrades for the existing PAF fleet?? I think they have been upgraded but what if some more upgrades? I say PAF should go for the Qatari Mirages and **** the theory that If India has it we shouldnt have it! Mirage 2k is an awesome plane.

There isn't such theory. PAF was negotiating mirage2000s in 1990s when IAF had them from 1980s. PAF was negotiating Qatar Mirages as well (IAF still had them and they continue to posses them).

Turkey is one of the largest F-16 operator that did not stop Greece, their greatest enemy, from buying F-16s. Saudis and Israelis both have F-15s, Israel and Egypt both operate F-16s. The notion that your enemy has "xyz" so you shouldn't buy it is a bit absurd (but logical in some cases).

[On the side note: French offered Scorpion subs to PN while it had already sold them to IN. PAF not going for them is other story.]

I think Qatar has decided to keep them for now. UAE on the other hand is going to sell their Mirage2000-9. They are going for Rafales.

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Existing Mirages have been upgraded to ROSE III and IV. They are perhaps the best Mirage III and V series in the world right now (perhaps ever produced). They are equipped with latest avionics etc ... some say they have BVR capability (to fire MICA) but I am not too certain as PAF never officially came out on this nor purchase MICAs for it.

 

[TOPGUN]

Ok but we want to know wat these talks about? and if they are not for old mirage III 's and V's or for there upgrades then wat are these talks about?

 

[ahmeddsid]

There isn't such theory. PAF was negotiating mirage2000s in 1990s when IAF had them from 1980s. PAF was negotiating Qatar Mirages as well (IAF still had them and they continue to posses them).

Turkey is one of the largest F-16 operator that did not stop Greece, their greatest enemy, from buying F-16s. Saudis and Israelis both have F-15s, Israel and Egypt both operate F-16s. The notion that your enemy has "xyz" so you shouldn't buy it is a bit absurd (but logical in some cases).

[On the side note: French offered Scorpion subs to PN while it had already sold them to IN. PAF not going for them is other story.]

I think Qatar has decided to keep them for now. UAE on the other hand is going to sell their Mirage2000-9. They are going for Rafales.

----------------

Existing Mirages have been upgraded to ROSE III and IV. They are perhaps the best Mirage III and V series in the world right now (perhaps ever produced). They are equipped with latest avionics etc ... some say they have BVR capability (to fire MICA) but I am not too certain as PAF never officially came out on this nor purchase MICAs for it.

Yeah I know about Turkey, Israel, KSA etc. But PAF and IAF share this idiotic notion, I mean If one has something the other shouldnt get the same stuff. It may be imaginary but it feels so.

 

[SABRE]

Ok but we want to know wat these talks about? and if they are not for old mirage III 's and V's or for there upgrades then wat are these talks about?

These could be anything. Perhaps newer avionics and weapons system for Mirage III and V which have recently been upgraded by PAC to have A2A refueling (they number around 30 to 50). PAF could have shown interest in UAE's Mirage2000-9 (as UAE is going to sell them and purchase Rafales) and perhaps wants France to establish overhauling and logistics facility. Newly built Mirage2000 will not make sense so may be PAF asked for Mirage2000s France Air Force is retiring for Rafale. It could be anything but at this moment its "unclear news" turning into "rumors."

 

[SABRE]

Yeah I know about Turkey, Israel, KSA etc. But PAF and IAF share this idiotic notion, I mean If one has something the other shouldnt get the same stuff. It may be imaginary but it feels so.

Well in current scenario IAF is being offered F-16 and PAF/Pakistan said they will not be hurdle in the deal (like anyone can be when it comes to it). India and Pakistan armed forces follow a doctrine of surprise. Similar weapons are welcomed but same weapons can give away surprise in battle field. The believe on both sides is that it will enable the other to think on the same line.

 

[ahmeddsid]

Well in current scenario IAF is being offered F-16 and PAF/Pakistan said they will not be hurdle in the deal (like anyone can be when it comes to it). India and Pakistan armed forces follow a doctrine of surprise. Similar weapons are welcomed but same weapons can give away surprise in battle field. The believe on both sides is that it will enable the other to think on the same line.

yeah, But the F16 is not that much of a favorite because it will be discontinued after 2020 most probably to be replaced by the JSF.

If PAF is looking at the Mirage 2k, I say go for it!

 

[TOPGUN]

Iam all for mirage 2000! lets see wats cooking in the pot if there is anything to cook even!!

 

[spurdozer]

Yeah I know about Turkey, Israel, KSA etc. But PAF and IAF share this idiotic notion, I mean If one has something the other shouldnt get the same stuff. It may be imaginary but it feels so.

I beg to differ from your statement sir. PAF has F-7s which are the licensed copies of the Mig-21s which India posseses. BUT if I am wrong don't hesitate to correct me. I am here to learn from senior members like you and other think tanks.

 

[ahmeddsid]

I beg to differ from your statement sir. PAF has F-7s which are the licensed copies of the Mig-21s which India posseses. BUT if I am wrong don't hesitate to correct me. I am here to learn from senior members like you and other think tanks.

You are correct, the F7s are not just Copies of the Mig 21, they are Improved Versions My friend. Pakistan opted for them because they are cheap and Sanction free. But when It comes to Big Ticket Items, PAF and IAF dont like using similar stuff, atleast thats what I feel. We are all Learning Here, and In a matter of time you will be telling me stuff I dont know! God Speed.

 

[blain2]

Mirage IV and V...this is what i heard!

They don't fly either. The only Mirages in use by the French are the F-1 and Mirage 2000. I suspect this is something about some spares that the French still have and we want to buy them to keep our fleet of Mirage III/Vs in the air.

 

[Moscow]

sir
even if we take this news seriously then the point to ponder would be what's happening to the j-10b?
pakistan has always stated that the j-10b would be superior to any other 4 th gen fighter then why are they even thinking of the mirages?are they planning to replace their old mirages with this ones any news about this or are they going to keep the old mirages also.?
one more point would be wont this purchase hamper the no of jf-17 and j-10b aircrafts considering the financial aspect?

anyways if it comes through it would be a great boost to the paf.
i wish paf " all the best "

thnx

 

[blain2]

Yeah I know about Turkey, Israel, KSA etc. But PAF and IAF share this idiotic notion, I mean If one has something the other shouldnt get the same stuff. It may be imaginary but it feels so.

We do not think like that. We really liked the Mirage 2000-5 when we evaluated it and then funding was pulled for the PAF.

One thing that people have to remember is that even if the two sides buy the same aircraft, the avionics and capabilities are very different. The Mirage 2000 that PAF evaluated was nothing like what the IAF have.

I think Mirage 2000 is highly unlikely unless the French are willing to part with Mirage 2000 at costs comparable to the earlier F-16s. Since the Rafale F3 is coming on line, the Mirage 2000 replacement will also pick up pace with the ADlA. If the French offer a good Mirage 2000 package similar to the 50 or so Mirage III/Vs they sold to us in the early 90s, and we can upgrade them to the level of Mirage 2000-5, then PAF may become interested. This would allow PAF to add numbers to its hi-tech tier fairly quickly as the Mirage 2000-5 type avionics upgrade would allow capabilities in the same league as F-16MLU.

Having stated the above, I think the most likely deal here is some more remaining Mirage III/V airframes, spares which would be used to keep the PAF Mirage fleet supported.

 

[blain2]

sir
even if we take this news seriously then the point to ponder would be what's happening to the j-10b?
pakistan has always stated that the j-10b would be superior to any other 4 th gen fighter then why are they even thinking of the mirages?are they planning to replace their old mirages with this ones any news about this or are they going to keep the old mirages also.?
one more point would be wont this purchase hamper the no of jf-17 and j-10b aircrafts considering the financial aspect?

anyways if it comes through it would be a great boost to the paf.
i wish paf " all the best "

thnx

FC-20 will take time to materialize. The PAF Chief has said that they have 2 years to decide on the avionics package for the FC-20. So I am not expecting to see a FC-20 before late 2010 in Pakistan.

Some random thoughts about this news/rumor:
The other point about the Mirage news could have something to do with PAF thinking about increasing the BVR capable platforms at short notice. A Mirage 2000 in service with the ADlA, which is available for sale, would allow PAF to acquire a very robust BVR capability at a very short notice (even before the F-16 MLUs return to Pakistan). The French Mirage 2000 are pretty much all BVR capable.

PAF have evaluated the Mirage 2000 aircraft on multiple occasions. They have liked it. The aircraft are capable of Link 16, capable of using next generation of BVR/SRAAM missiles and have excellent serviceability. The M-88 engines on the M2K may find some commonality with a potential upgrade of the JF-17 engine (M-88 was heard to be a candidate)...so who knows.

If this turns out to be true, then the key thing would be to find airframes with low hours. Maybe some are available at a good price!? Again all hypothetical but within the realm of possibility.

Lastly, I personally think that Mirage 2000 is an excellent aircraft. In my opinion, it is the finest aircraft flown by the IAF and I say this knowing that MKI is the pride of the IAF. But I have many reasons to state what I state. As such, it would be an excellent addition to the PAF if by some odd chance, this became a reality.

 

[blain2]

I beg to differ from your statement sir. PAF has F-7s which are the licensed copies of the Mig-21s which India posseses. BUT if I am wrong don't hesitate to correct me. I am here to learn from senior members like you and other think tanks.

Technically speaking, F-7s are not licensed versions of the Mig-21. The only licenses to build that was given to China by the former USSR and now Russia have been for two aircraft. One was Mig-19 which became J-6/F-6 and the other is the Su-27. F-7 was a reverse engineering project of the Mig-21 but the Chinese perfected it to the point that aircraft like F-7MG/PG exceed the performance of the Russian Mig-21.

 

[blain2]

not trying to burst anyone's bubble or anything...

but m2k production is over

and French AF will still use m2k for a few more years

Rafael is too expensive

You are not bursting anyone's bubble here because everything on this thread is hypothetical since this news has not been confirmed by a credible source. So hypothesize away!

Also keep in mind that this is not a question of new build Mirage 2000s because of two reasons. One is what you stated, M2K assembly closed down December 2007. Second, Pakistan would not be paying for new aircraft when it could simply pay similar or slightly more for new build blk52s which the PAF prefers.