Pakistan's Mirage 2000 Saga

[SSGPA1]

I am thinking of multiple scenarios:

1. PAF & the GoP are worried about F-16 deal and are discussing mirage 2000 as a back up plan.

2. Pakistan may be trying to influence Indian decision on MRCA.

3. Zardari is close to arm dealers for French equipment. This is the reason why we almost had a very expensive deal in mid 90s for Mirage 2k and some submarines. This deal was averted when PPPP lost their govt. and a lot of money was saved.

 

[IceCold]

All of the programs are in the works but will take time before fruition. In light of the recent tensions with India, there may have been a need felt to bolster BVR capable platforms quickly. If you look around, Mirage 2000 is the only aircraft available with this capability.

So let me get this straight, only when tensions rose and we were at the brink of a possible conflict, Top Brass of PAF realized that they need a BVR capable platform quickly.Sorry but i find it a bit absurd.

I am stating all of the above without having any facts as I am not even sure if this report of Mirages is true. So keep that in mind when posting. We are just discussing a possibility at this time.

Obviously as there is no other report suggesting this however like few members said geo was reporting it and the report didn't just pop out of thin air, there must be some credibility to it. The rumors or news or whatever one would want to call it is still disturbing why because only when the conflict arises, we realize how ill prepared we are or that we lack a certain capability and we need it quickly, what if getting quickly was not that quick after all.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hello Blain,

So you think that time might prove me right---after all these years---that the Qatari Mirage 2000 's were the right buy for pakistan!!!

 

[Arsalan]

Your data is very understated. Rafale is almost certainly faster than Mach 1.8 and the ceiling is higher than 16.8 km, guaranteed. T/W is understated too I think. Put a + sign after all of these numbers like it is on Wikipedia! All these Rafale specs are most likely with full fuel and some armament on board.

no its not so, i will provide you with links!

the comparison and justifications i gave myself may sound stupid but the spec are 100% correct

 

[PAFAce]

Pakistan Mirage deal is close, says France
by GILBERT SEDBON published in 1992

The article shows how close we were to getting Mirages in 1992. The deal eventually fell through for both economic and political reasons, however, it answers some very interesting questions posted in this thread:

1. PAF regards the Mirage 2000 highly, as it was suposed to be a replacement for the F-16s.
2. The French were willing to sell to Pakistan.
3. There is nothing stopping Dassault from selling to Pakistan. (This was way before the MRCA contest.)

Also, it raises some other questions:
1. The Thomson-CSF RDM/7 was mentioned specifically in the article. Can anyone tell me why was it singled out like this?

 

[Quwa]

I don't think the Mirage 2000s were going to replace the F-16s, but rather augment them. This deal was close to finalization twice in the 1990s, but cancelled both times by the Pakistani leadership. From what I know, the PAF was hoping to split the air defence roles of the F-16 & Mirage 2000 in low and high altitude profiles, respectively.

In the 1990s the PAF also put a lot of effort into acquiring weapon-systems such as BVR and precision-guided bombs/missiles from South Africa. I imagine it was initially hoped that the R-Darter BVRAAM would equip the M2K & ROSE-I. Even if it got the Mirage 2000s, it would have still put effort into completing the Peace Gate III/IV program. PAF already had the infrastructure and the F-16 was a fine fighter. In fact, the PAF re-evaluated the Mirage 2000 in the late 1980s, suggesting that a complementary role was considered.

Also interesting to note is that around the late 1980s the PAF was involved in the original Super-7/Sabre II program with China & U.S. Had it succeeded, then the backbone of the PAF fleet would have certainly consisted of this fighter. Makes you wonder how the 1990s would have been if the PAF had 40 Mirage 2000s, 110 F-16s, 150 Super-7s and 96 Mirage ROSE-I/II.

 

[Arsalan]

why are we looking for them at the present moment.

if the Gov is hopeful to get the F16 (both the MLU and new) plus we are looking for FC20 and the JF17 why to go for this plane which will be quiet same as the JF17.

i think it is a wrong decesion, we must invest the money on JF17 to bring the best out of it. inductiing Mirages at the moment will mean that after some six or eight years we will be having a whole bunch of squadrons lining up to get retired, this may cause problem at that time.

on the other hand investing more on JF17 will solve our problems for the next 15 to 20 years!

what do you people think

 

[araz]

So let me get this straight, only when tensions rose and we were at the brink of a possible conflict, Top Brass of PAF realized that they need a BVR capable platform quickly.Sorry but i find it a bit absurd.



Obviously as there is no other report suggesting this however like few members said geo was reporting it and the report didn't just pop out of thin air, there must be some credibility to it. The rumors or news or whatever one would want to call it is still disturbing why because only when the conflict arises, we realize how ill prepared we are or that we lack a certain capability and we need it quickly, what if getting quickly was not that quick after all.

Icey
None of us know the true picture so at thi point all is speculation. The news has come out of the blue so one can analyze it as if it was true and see what possible implications it might have.
My own humble view is that IF PAF is buying M2K9 from UAEit means a couple of things.
A)Our upgraded mirages have a capability gap, you we have a massive infra structure for Mirage overhaul and repair. So it would not be xpensive to maintain and keep them as setup costs would be low.
B) PAF has had experience with these planes and likes them(as per PShamim). The air frames are new and have low flying hours.
C) PAF is looking for French avionics and engine for JF 13. I suppose there iis pressure from the french to buy something so that they can give you the engine technology.Everyone can see the advantage in having commonality of engines with TOT with egards to maintenance.M53 will fit in nicely with thunder and we can develop things further from there. Armamments would also be good and common.
D) instant boost to PAF with regards to BVR capabilty cannot be denied provided these planes can be acquired quickly(UAE is not under any threat at the moment). PAF can cover them and provide security in case of any aggression(Pure surmise on my part!!). PAF might be able to get a good deal from UAE for these planes as there is quite a soft spot in UAE for Pakistan and PAF.
E) American uncertainty can be countered effectively as 63 against 18 is a no show.
F) Perhaps the french and UAE are at loggerheads with regards tothse Mirages which might be difficult to sell under current climate, and PAF has niftily stepped in to get favours out of both sides,i.e engine s instead of buying old planes back or organizing third party sale ,and relieving UAe's headache with sellingthese planes.
Having said all this I believe PAF should look ahead to J10 and develop thunder rather than going for these planes. The problem is all the doors leading to progress are facing the french way at the moment.
Ifthe news is credible then C seems the most likely reason to me, which suits all parties well. Especially the utility of 63 cheap planes in light of infra structure for building their engines and avionics.
m 2 paisas worth
Araz

 

[Hayreddin]

1 :Well whether the matter is about acquiring avionics or MIRAGE 2000 ,both have better aspects .
2:AS far as we talk about Mirage 2000 ,its better platform because we have much experience with mirage family and have biggest fleet of mirages after France in the world ,but the actual thing is the expensive price .
3:AMERICANS will give us conventional weapons ,how many and for how much time ,its totally unpredictable ,They have carrot and stick policy toward PAKISTAN .

4: So make reliance on AMERICAN lesser and lesser ,
Wisdom depicts that we should acquire the deal from FRANCE whether its about fighter jet or about AVIONICS .

5: Make our relations smooth with RUSSIANS so we can get our hands easily on RUSSIAN TECHNOLOGY WHETHER we get directly or indirectly from china .

6:its the time to modernize our air force in coming 6 years ,after that we will be way behind from IAF and their will be no hope to compete them .

 

[must7]

The last what I heard from the French sources was that UAE & France are finalizing their deal of taking back the M2K9 and selling Rafale to UAE.

I do not know how Pakistan got in between for getting the M2K9 ! ..

Having said that the UAEAF M2K9 are one heck of an equipment loaded with goodies .. It would be really good induction keeping in mind that UAE would give a special discount on the purchase price too !

 

[Skywalker]

I dont think its a bad deal at all...as we have an excellent infrastructure for the Mirages...and this will definitly come handy. Most importantly PAF pilots have already flown these fighters.

 

[Arsalan]

I dont think its a bad deal at all...as we have an excellent infrastructure for the Mirages...and this will definitly come handy. Most importantly PAF pilots have already flown these fighters.

but sir what do you suggest will it be fruitfull to invest on a system that will be requiring replacements soon!!

i mean to say in the near future we wil be facing the lights of F18(Maybe or any equally good Plane through the MRCA project), Su30, Su27 and probably fifth generation plane ie PAK FA. wont it be more sensible to accquire a newly made plane (FC20 or JF17) it will maximize the chances and options of upgrades and thus will be able to keep pase with the emerging technology of another 20 ~ 25 years!

i think it is a wrong decesion, we must invest the money on JF17 to bring the best out of it. inductiing Mirages at the moment will mean that after some six or eight years we will be having a whole bunch of squadrons lining up to get retired, this may cause problem at that time.

the JF17 is the best replacement for this deal, though the will slowly increase in number but hopefully we will be operating 50 to 60 of these planes by 2010 end. what do you think?

 

[khanz]

a couple of dozen rafales would probably be better than a hundred mirages french are desperate for export so we should take advantage.PAF start saving up please......

 

[chirag.s]

a couple of dozen rafales would probably be better than a hundred mirages french are desperate for export so we should take advantage.PAF start saving up please......

i m not sure about that but numbers surely will help even if not the best technology platform .technology + large numbers = much better situation but may not be the best way always .every thing yes EVERYTHING depends on TACTICS hope you would go for the best available option

 

[batmannow]

can some body make it confrim! i mean the dam news?