Pakistan's Loss: A Disaster or a Blessing

[Yankee-stani]

I've talked to someone who knows ppl that work at Walton at upper level. The whole thing is basically a front group to get some "we're helping some third worlders hurdehurrr" initially (in some market of X Y Z).....and then the Chinese come up behind them to get the real body of the sustained exports later (that they couldn't as easily otherwise since China is basically not so 3rd world anymore...so the feelz arent quite there anymore among gullible whitey).

It's a clever model, for the Chinese that is (and why they commit maybe 10% MVA value to anything they invest in BD to begin with)....they have a few notable ppl controlling things in Walton....its the typical skirmisher followed by phalanx model. Skirmishers are expendable (and just reconnoiter and commit a little and get a little at most), phalanxes do the job and hold territory and settle scores....but the villages/peons providing the skirmishers really can't be choosy since they come from zilch....and have no bargaining power/capability of their own.

This is also why the initial hurdehur target, that gets delayed by 10 years......and then the export levels of non-RMG dont actually change in any noticeable amount....and neither does Walton release a standard FY revenue release (forget profitability analysis etc)....for god knows since I joined the forum at least I think (maybe more).

Neither do service exports, pharma or any of the other goodie bags promised here each week, of each month of each year.

Really just sit back and watch, the only constant in this subforum are 1971 waaah threads and "we're starting to export *insert hurdeeehurr*" threads. Oh and bitching that BD ppl go to India for the most basic of basic things (that one would think a superpower STRONK exporter could provide easily). Draining the money y...Its all just bollywood imaginationzzz.

Then when you call them out on the ACTUAL numbers and performance.....and maybe theres issue with all this talk of 3 million and genocide blah blah.....they yell WAISSSIST and BUTTHURT!

Really they are quite the spectacle living in their little cocoon.

Well in short means the PRC makes Walton goods while Walton is BD company tho I am sort of a Sinophile I am kinda relalist on them great model to make some money the Turks do the same thing as well

BD only main exports are textiles and boy when Whitey in the west sees a excess of one country goods time to put tariffs on them @Nilgiri The PRC and ASEAN have better mechanisms as they export to other markets as well BD is heavy on the west which will screw them up in the near future

 

[Nilgiri]

Well in short means the PRC makes Walton goods while Walton is BD company tho I am sort of a Sinophile I am kinda relalist on them great model to make some money the Turks do the same thing as well

BD only main exports are textiles and boy when Whitey in the west sees a excess of one country goods time to put tariffs on them @Nilgiri The PRC and ASEAN have better mechanisms as they export to other markets as well BD is heavy on the west which will screw them up in the near future

Hey I gotta recognise acumen when I see it and the Chinese have plenty....BD ppl not so much. But they make up for it with good vibes and feelings...and stronky stronk....and history/blame tantrums.

You are right about PRC ASEAN etc....you gotta commit real capacity to target and actually transfer dedicated capital that is set up there for yourself....that goes over and beyond the static inertia of the capital.

People here don't even know what the breakdown is for most of the high value stuff they buy w.r.t labour input versus capital cost input. There is a HUGE differential between both....and that labour (and other opex) can only shift so much in free market....and that nothing is guaranteed (as to production model even lasting that long in significance). Then you also got to think is it even worth it etc....what should be prioritised and targetted....what should rather be spent on catching buses down the road from the start etc ( that you need to invest in institution wise right now etc).

The fundamental question/miracle that no one (in this subforum) questions is....what is the capital transfer ratio per year for something as basic as RMG from China to BD (given China exports immense amounts even though its tariffed much more than BD overall and its labour costs increasing). In that lies the answer why BD is not growing way way faster. Then you do a basic scaled analysis to even more capital intensive industries....and the picture is quite startling as to what BD would need to do (and have done 10 years ago if u think about it...especially for such things as market cap and wealth buffers).....especially given its lack of diversity/hedging, lack of scale and lack of necessary buffers needed.

But instead its much easier to say we have autocracy and autocracy will solve everything...just because X Y and Z had autocracy umpteen years ago (and they dont even do a basic context of what the world was like in those periods compared to now).

I mean cmon what would you really have, a gas tank that actually has gas in it....or just hoping the fumes are enough to get u from A to B? Most rational people can pick wisely....emotional people might not.

 

[Yankee-stani]

Hey I gotta recognise acumen when I see it and the Chinese have plenty....BD ppl not so much. But they make up for it with good vibes and feelings...and stronky stronk....and history/blame tantrums.

You are right about PRC ASEAN etc....you gotta commit real capacity to target and actually transfer dedicated capital that is set up there for yourself....that goes over and beyond the static inertia of the capital.

People here don't even know what the breakdown is for most of the high value stuff they buy w.r.t labour input versus capital cost input. There is a HUGE differential between both....and that labour (and other opex) can only shift so much in free market....and that nothing is guaranteed (as to production model even lasting that long in significance). Then you also got to think is it even worth it etc....what should be prioritised and targetted....what should rather be spent on catching buses down the road from the start etc ( that you need to invest in institution wise right now etc).

The fundamental question/miracle that no one (in this subforum) questions is....what is the capital transfer ratio per year for something as basic as RMG from China to BD (given China exports immense amounts even though its tariffed much more than BD overall and its labour costs increasing). In that lies the answer why BD is not growing way way faster. Then you do a basic scaled analysis to even more capital intensive industries....and the picture is quite startling as to what BD would need to do (and have done 10 years ago if u think about it...especially for such things as market cap and wealth buffers).....especially given its lack of diversity/hedging, lack of scale and lack of necessary buffers needed.

But instead its much easier to say we have autocracy and autocracy will solve everything...just because X Y and Z had autocracy umpteen years ago (and they dont even do a basic context of what the world was like in those periods compared to now).

I mean cmon what would you really have, a gas tank that actually has gas in it....or just hoping the fumes are enough to get u from A to B? Most rational people can pick wisely....emotional people might not.

Labor Costs have been increasing in not just China but all the ASEAN states as well eventhough you heard the "rumours" of factories moving away from the PRC to Vietnam or Malaysia traders had to re think cause the US will tarrif anyways so they stayed anyways cheap labor is one thing however the issue that South Asian nations dont understand is that textiles and cheap labor are small you need skilled labor for a economy to grown something all of South Asia has but something PRC/ASEAN has

 

[Rusty]

Pakistan’s poverty is 39%. Bangladesh’s 24%.

http://www.pk.undp.org/content/paki...istanis-live-in-multidimensional-poverty.html


With facts and figures. You lot has big mouth not the other way around. On per capita gdp nominal wise you are still 6th on South Asia just ahead of Nepal and Afghanistan. You should be very proud of it.

.... Low IQ swamp dwellers using 2016 numbers....
By that logic bangladeshis look like this

My numbers are from 2018/2019

 

[ps3linux]

.... Low IQ swamp dwellers using 2016 numbers....
By that logic bangladeshis look like this

My numbers are from 2018/2019

Actually If we read the topic of the thread 99.99% Pakistanis will agree with it, thank goodness they are no more a part of us. For us its a blessing for them ( i think darwin must have visited/interacted with bangladeshis when he proposed his famous theory of evolution, only in their case the evolution seems to be in regressive mode) eternal inferiority complex.

They will bring in 2016 figures, and harp about GDP Nominal surpassed Pakistan, since their IQ is limited thus don't understand the figures being quoted, they don't even understand the difference between poverty (as a standard) and food security.

Main point remains they are irrelevant to us, not even on our radar, never been never will be. personally i am so happy to see them behaving the way they do everywhere, they are proving the point right that there separation was a blessing for us. Being the shirt makers is a different thing, as far I remember Indonesia started manufacturing small passenger crafts about a decade ago, their infrastructure and economy is ways ahead of these mudpit dwellers.

 

[Black_cats]

Actually If we read the topic of the thread 99.99% Pakistanis will agree with it, thank goodness they are no more a part of us. For us its a blessing for them ( i think darwin must have visited/interacted with bangladeshis when he proposed his famous theory of evolution, only in their case the evolution seems to be in regressive mode) eternal inferiority complex.

They will bring in 2016 figures, and harp about GDP Nominal surpassed Pakistan, since their IQ is limited thus don't understand the figures being quoted, they don't even understand the difference between poverty (as a standard) and food security.

Main point remains they are irrelevant to us, not even on our radar, never been never will be. personally i am so happy to see them behaving the way they do everywhere, they are proving the point right that there separation was a blessing for us. Being the shirt makers is a different thing, as far I remember Indonesia started manufacturing small passenger crafts about a decade ago, their infrastructure and economy is ways ahead of these mudpit dwellers.

That’s why your intellectuals cry on TV show Khoda Ka Waste hamey Bangladesh banado...

.... Low IQ swamp dwellers using 2016 numbers....
By that logic bangladeshis look like this

My numbers are from 2018/2019

Ya ya whatever float your boat. Days are not far when your country will be comparable with Afghanistan. In Passport ranking both are almost at the same ranking.

Always remember one thing, Pakistan is no longer on the same league as Bangladesh. Gap between both countries will only widen. Now you are just witnessing Bangladesh has just crossed Pakistan, in 10 years it will be miles ahead with almost double economy size.

Below is the poverty list from 2018 by UNDP. Try to feed your poor and your people. Already in last 50 years you lot lost 4 inch height. In future you will loose more with current trend.

On the multi-dimensional UNDP poverty index (MPI and current as of 2018), the respective Populations for each country living below poverty line is (per http://hdr.undp.org/en/2018-MPI), download the spreadsheet at (http://hdr.undp.org/sites/default/files/table_6_2018_mpi.xlsx).

Pakistan - 29.5%

Bangladesh - 24.3%

India - 21.9%

Myanmar - 32.1%

Sri Lanka - No Data

Nepal - 25.2%

This establishes once and for all, where the real picture is per UNDP.

 

[Rusty]

That’s why your intellectuals cry on TV show Khoda Ka Waste hamey Bangladesh banado...

Ya ya whatever float your boat. Days are not far when your country will be comparable with Afghanistan. In Passport ranking both are almost at the same ranking.

Always remember one thing, Pakistan is no longer on the same league as Bangladesh. Gap between both countries will only widen. Now you are just witnessing Bangladesh has just crossed Pakistan, in 10 years it will be miles ahead with almost double economy size.

Below is the poverty list from 2018 by UNDP. Try to feed your poor and your people. Already in last 50 years you lot lost 4 inch height. In future you will loose more with current trend.

On the multi-dimensional UNDP poverty index (MPI and current as of 2018), the respective Populations for each country living below poverty line is (per http://hdr.undp.org/en/2018-MPI), download the spreadsheet at (http://hdr.undp.org/sites/default/files/table_6_2018_mpi.xlsx).

Pakistan - 29.5%

Bangladesh - 24.3%

India - 21.9%

Myanmar - 32.1%

Sri Lanka - No Data

Nepal - 25.2%

This establishes once and for all, where the real picture is per UNDP.

In 10 years half your population with be kidnapped by Myanmar, and bangladesh will be helpless to stop them

 

[ps3linux]

That’s why your intellectuals cry on TV show Khoda Ka Waste hamey Bangladesh banado...



Ya ya whatever float your boat. Days are not far when your country will be comparable with Afghanistan. In Passport ranking both are almost at the same ranking.

Always remember one thing, Pakistan is no longer on the same league as Bangladesh. Gap between both countries will only widen. Now you are just witnessing Bangladesh has just crossed Pakistan, in 10 years it will be miles ahead with almost double economy size.

Below is the poverty list from 2018 by UNDP. Try to feed your poor and your people. Already in last 50 years you lot lost 4 inch height. In future you will loose more with current trend.

On the multi-dimensional UNDP poverty index (MPI and current as of 2018), the respective Populations for each country living below poverty line is (per http://hdr.undp.org/en/2018-MPI), download the spreadsheet at (http://hdr.undp.org/sites/default/files/table_6_2018_mpi.xlsx).

Pakistan - 29.5%

Bangladesh - 24.3%

India - 21.9%

Myanmar - 32.1%

Sri Lanka - No Data

Nepal - 25.2%

This establishes once and for all, where the real picture is per UNDP.

If the jokers sittings on any media channel of any country are intellectuals then Indians are right in saying that they had nuclear powered space ships and vacuum cleaners 10,000 years ago. Hell even idiots like those claiming humans are the lab rats of aliens must be true. When I say that you and your country are irrelevant to us, I mean the corporate sector doesn't even put your country on any chart unless that corporate has shifted some of its production facility to your country for being the cheapest labor force and subservient. As far as the Public sector is concerned they don't give a rats a** to you guys.

If repeating this data make you feel comfortable along the dreams that by 2050 you ll be on G8 and UNSC, then so be it. Be happy. Like I mentioned earlier take deep breaths and start pushing, hopefully you ll be able to eject the vitriol in a millions years or so.

BTW grow something not that I expect your kind to have the ability, and put your flag along your name. Easier to recognize a 48 chromosome one that way.

 

[Rusty]

If the jokers sittings on any media channel of any country are intellectuals then Indians are right in saying that they had nuclear powered space ships and vacuum cleaners 10,000 years ago. Hell even idiots like those claiming humans are the lab rats of aliens must be true. When I say that you and your country are irrelevant to us, I mean the corporate sector doesn't even put your country on any chart unless that corporate has shifted some of its production facility to your country for being the cheapest labor force and subservient. As far as the Public sector is concerned they don't give a rats a** to you guys.

If repeating this data make you feel comfortable along the dreams that by 2050 you ll be on G8 and UNSC, then so be it. Be happy. Like I mentioned earlier take deep breaths and start pushing, hopefully you ll be able to eject the vitriol in a millions years or so.

BTW grow something not that I expect your kind to have the ability, and put your flag along your name. Easier to recognize a 48 chromosome one that way.

I mean look at their obession here. How may Pakistanis hand out in Bangadeshi forums?
They are so obessed that they troll this place incesently.

 

[ps3linux]

I mean look at their obession here. How may Pakistanis hand out in Bangadeshi forums?
They are so obessed that they troll this place incesently.

doesn't it speak about their flexible morality, too flexible some might say shameless, gutless, without dignity or morality or honor, In urdu we have a different name but they will not understand the meaning and implications, not that if they do they will act otherwise. Any one with any IQ would understand that this is Pakistan's defense forum, as in Pakistan Armed Forces many of the guys I could tell by their post are ex-servicemen, man isn't it the same armed forces which according to these people slaughtered 3 million of their kind and raped 1 million of their women and yet they come here again and again eloping with the same Armed Forces personnel.

Its like there is Dhaka Sweets in Rwp/Islo now bangladeshis would claim since the name is Dhaka it was actually setup by the admin so that dhaka sweets could survive and thrive where they slobber and lick their rice/fish or jack fruit, cant be any funny than that but then again it would have been easier had I been addressing a 46 chromosome species rather than a 48 one.

Bangladesh as a tourist spot for Pakistan that should be like on number 196 among countries of the world and we expect Bangladeshis to reciprocate, besides even if they decide to come to Pakistan who would give them visas, not Pakistan Foreign office considering the million plus illegal bangladeshi immigrants which kept coming here through khokhrapar and sri lanka till Pakistan Army and Martitime security force plugged the holes in the late 90s. Even our cook used to be a bengali when we were in Karachi 1999 I think.

@Rusty I see you are in Canada If you're a private banker then B.C otherwise on east coast, don't you guys in Canada avoid them as plague infested, last time I was in Greater Toronto/B.C Pakistanis/Indians/Sri Lankan hell even somalian avoided them much less talk about them except in really bad jokes.

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

Dude even Afghanistan is in South Asia. Stop remaining in delusion that you are central Asian, Iranian, Turks or Arabs as nobody welcomes you.

If a crow put some feather of peacock it does not make him peacock. You are south Asian and be happy with it.

But point is in South Asia your country ranked 6th if the comparison is done central Asian your country would come last excluding Afghanistan as it is a South Asian country.



Copy pasting message 208..

The average PDF Pakistani gets his/her feathers ruffled when someone mentions the states of economy of both countries. But one has to ask why this difference? This did not happen in one day. Let's look at the statistics. I will highlight some of the critical ones that are stark and outliers...

Agricultural workers > Male
Bangladesh 54% Ranked 2nd. 32% morethan Pakistan
Pakistan 41% Ranked 8th.

Employment rate >Adults
Bangladesh 67.9 Ranked 30th. 32% morethan Pakistan
Pakistan 51.5 Ranked 124th.

Expense > Current Local Currency Unit
Bangladesh 901.49 billion Ranked 32nd.
Pakistan 3.77 trillion Ranked 1st. 4 times more than Bangladesh (this is amazing to me, why? Where does all the money go??)

Labor force
Bangladesh 73.87 million Ranked 8th. 32% more than Pakistan
Pakistan 55.77 million Ranked 10th.

Labor force > By occupation >Agriculture
Bangladesh 45% Ranked 3rd. 5% more than Pakistan
Pakistan 43% Ranked 9th.

Labor force > By occupation > Industry
Bangladesh 30% Ranked 5th. 48% morethan Pakistan
Pakistan 20.3% Ranked 30th.

Labor force > By occupation > Services
Bangladesh 25% Ranked 22nd.
Pakistan 36.6% Ranked 39th.46% more than Bangladesh

Labor force, total
Bangladesh 76.04 million Ranked 8th. 19% more than Pakistan
Pakistan 63.78 million Ranked 10th.

Salaries and benefits > Hourly minimum wage
Bangladesh $0.19 Ranked 144th.
Pakistan $1.23 Ranked 87th.6 times more than Bangladesh (This is amazing as well - why?)

Salaries and benefits > Minimum wage(roughly equal in both countries)
Bangladesh 1,500 Taka ($19) per month for all economic sectors not covered by industry-specific wages; in the garment industry the minimum wage is 5,300 taka ($68) per month. The minimum wage is set nationally every five years by the National Minimum Wage Board in a tripartite forum industry by industry.
Pakistan 10,000 Pakistani rupees ($70 at current rates as of April 2019) per month.

Unemployment rate (this explains the law and order situation as well)
Bangladesh 4.8% Ranked 77th.
Pakistan 15% Ranked 8th. 3 times more than Bangladesh

Labor force per 1000
Bangladesh 488.8 Ranked 39th. 52% morethan Pakistan
Pakistan 322.09 Ranked 104th.

Labor force participation rate>Employment-population ratio, men
Bangladesh 83.9% Ranked 3rd. 25% morethan Pakistan
Pakistan 67% Ranked 45th.

Labor force participation > Employment to population ratio >Men
Bangladesh 83.9% Ranked 3rd. 25% morethan Pakistan
Pakistan 67% Ranked 45th

https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Bangladesh/Pakistan/Labor

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........Not being south asian does not make you an Arab, Turk or Persian. I NEVER even said that. Point is that the term "South Asian" is a not an accurate or natural term. It was first coined by the British during the raj to collectivise the subjects they were ruling. Nothing more. At least 70% of Pakistan's population and around 95% of afghanistan's, will have 0 racial, genetic or cultural connection to the lands East of us.

Also, Pakistan borders Iran which is a key part of the Middle East. As a result, for the last 25 years or more we have suffered from instability in the Middle East Which has adversely affected our economy. bangladesh is 1000s of kms away from Pakistan and has benefited from the stability of South and South East Asia. There have even been bangladeshi posters here who have recently stated that they see bangladesh as being more of a part of South East Asia than "South Asia".

 

[Bilal9]

Guys argue with facts if necessary, please stop off topic items especially racist pictures and insults.

 

[Black_cats]

In 10 years half your population with be kidnapped by Myanmar, and bangladesh will be helpless to stop them

If the jokers sittings on any media channel of any country are intellectuals then Indians are right in saying that they had nuclear powered space ships and vacuum cleaners 10,000 years ago. Hell even idiots like those claiming humans are the lab rats of aliens must be true. When I say that you and your country are irrelevant to us, I mean the corporate sector doesn't even put your country on any chart unless that corporate has shifted some of its production facility to your country for being the cheapest labor force and subservient. As far as the Public sector is concerned they don't give a rats a** to you guys.

If repeating this data make you feel comfortable along the dreams that by 2050 you ll be on G8 and UNSC, then so be it. Be happy. Like I mentioned earlier take deep breaths and start pushing, hopefully you ll be able to eject the vitriol in a millions years or so.

BTW grow something not that I expect your kind to have the ability, and put your flag along your name. Easier to recognize a 48 chromosome one that way.

I believe your PM Imran Khan is a joker as well with your definition when he was comparing Bangladesh’s development with Pakistan. I am smelling something is burning.

The more your poor and illiterate Pakistanis start to claim Bangladesh does not matter at all to Pakistanis it gets more funnier. Whenever any development and economic activity is discussed from regional perspective in your own media and news channel comparison with Bangladesh comes first not only as regional country but also as it was part of same country with same population size.

They brought the comparison not just for export where it is double compared to Pakistan but also for foreign reserve, currency conversion rate, literacy rate, school enrollment rate, participation of female on economy, life expectancy, child mortality rate so on and on.

Now see on prediction where is Pakistan and Bangladesh in 2033.

Bangladesh will be 24th largest economy with trillion dollar GDP and Pakistan will be at 27th with 35% more population. This is not only based on nominal but also GDP PPP wise Bangladesh will overtake Pakistan.

Bangladesh Page 55 and Pakistan 175:

https://cebr.com/download/5211/

Now add some burnnol to your burn and burry your head on sand with denial.

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

I believe your PM Imran Khan is a joker as well with your definition when he was comparing Bangladesh’s development with Pakistan. I am smelling something is burning.

The more your poor and illiterate Pakistanis start to claim Bangladesh does not matter at all to Pakistanis it gets more funnier. Whenever any development and economic activity is discussed from regional perspective in your own media and news channel comparison with Bangladesh comes first not only as regional country but also as it was part of same country with same population size.

They brought the comparison not just for export where it is double compared to Pakistan but also for foreign reserve, currency conversion rate, literacy rate, school enrollment rate, participation of female on economy, life expectancy, child mortality rate so on and on.

Now see on prediction where is Pakistan and Bangladesh in 2033.

Bangladesh will be 24th largest economy with trillion dollar GDP and Pakistan will be at 27th with 35% more population. This is not only based on nominal but also GDP PPP wise Bangladesh will overtake Pakistan.

Bangladesh Page 55 and Pakistan 175:

https://cebr.com/download/5211/

Now add some burnnol to your burn and burry your head on sand with denial.

Anything can happen between now and 2033. Let bangladesh first become a major world economic power before you pop the champagne bottle and start celebrating................if and when that does happen, it won't affect Pakistan whatsoever as you are TOO far away from us to have any impact on Pakistan.......regardless of what ANY news channel says or does..... Turkey is probably a similar distance from us as is bangladesh. We also have a very close relationship with them too. They are practically a developed nation with an economy comparable to European standards. Yet, their economic success and prowess has little bearing on Pakistan due to their distance from us. For good or bad, bangladeshi's economic success will only affect india and Myanmar/Burma. No one else. Fact is, the ONLY country's economic prowess that affects Pakistan is China. No one else.

 

[ps3linux]

I believe your PM Imran Khan is a joker as well with your definition when he was comparing Bangladesh’s development with Pakistan. I am smelling something is burning.

The more your poor and illiterate Pakistanis start to claim Bangladesh does not matter at all to Pakistanis it gets more funnier. Whenever any development and economic activity is discussed from regional perspective in your own media and news channel comparison with Bangladesh comes first not only as regional country but also as it was part of same country with same population size.

They brought the comparison not just for export where it is double compared to Pakistan but also for foreign reserve, currency conversion rate, literacy rate, school enrollment rate, participation of female on economy, life expectancy, child mortality rate so on and on.

Now see on prediction where is Pakistan and Bangladesh in 2033.

Bangladesh will be 24th largest economy with trillion dollar GDP and Pakistan will be at 27th with 35% more population. This is not only based on nominal but also GDP PPP wise Bangladesh will overtake Pakistan.

Bangladesh Page 55 and Pakistan 175:

https://cebr.com/download/5211/

Now add some burnnol to your burn and burry your head on sand with denial.

Once you work in the corporate world like me one understands the real IQ of politicians, media person and showbiz people so to sum it up he is no more idiot than any other politician and no one in his right mind takes him very seriously particularly about economy and with the exception of foreign relations.

When you look at the report each research house take into account different variables and add their own version of Qualitative data in it, if you look at IMF forecast (prediction in finance is only used by idiots we are not jyotshis we finance people never use such words), if you look at world bank report it would be different, one by HSBC would be different so would be by ADB and various other research reports. If you want to have a meaningful dialogue we can continue but by now you should have realized if you want to engage in insult then my command over English and 6 other languages is pretty good.

While progress in the GDP of Bangladesh is good, one thing financial analysts like me always factor in when dealing with third world countries (read developing countries) like India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka is political stability and law and order, any major shift in both the whole projection goes south.