Pakistan's Artillery Upgrade Discussions

[ziaulislam]

Pakistan has got mixture of M-46 and Type 59-1 130mm field guns in service.According to various sources number of guns is inbetween 350 and 400.
It fires a shell ranges upto 27.5 km (unassisted) 38 km (assisted)
With advent of new 155mm guns,these guns are now outranged.
Since they are old and everyone is shifting to 155 mm guns,Many states around the Globe have programs in place for upgunning these guns to 155mm cal.

Bharat got almost 1000 guns from USSR and
is currently upgunning all of it's 130's to 155mm,there new gun fires a 155mm shell at ranges upto 39 Km and their 2027 Art Mod Plan calls for replacing all cals to 155mm.It seems like they would upgun all of their inventory.
Considering all this Pakistan should upgun all of 130's to 155mm cal either do it at HIT or through another foreign company.

Here are advantages which we would get from upgunning 130 to 155.

• Depending upon barrel L Gun range would increase with upgrade.
• Shell weight would increase damage.
• Ease of logistics and increase in no of Arty guns of 155 cal.
• It would save money which otherwise would go into new arty gun purchase.

In longer run a single cal means that;

• Reduction in the logistic trail of Army,single cal means one type of Ammo support.
• This would imply a higher operational preparedness and greater logistical efficiency.
• Simple logistics management systems achieved through inventory streamlining and standardisation will act as a force multiplier.
• In longer run we can design a single Arty piece of that cal and replace our all inventroy with it.

Here is everything which goes into this process of upgunning.
UPGUNNING OF 130mm M46 GUN TO 155mm/45 CALIBRE GUN

Converted gun is based on the Soviet 130mm M-46 gun, where the barrel has been replaced with new 155 mm with 45 caliber length. It is representing a modern, highly versatile and cost-effective solution of powerfull fire support weapon, boasting features like:

• combat weight of 7680 kg,
• field of action 50 degrees in azimuth and minus 2.5 Deg to 45 Deg in elevation,
• capable of firing all standard 155mm NATO ammunition including modern long range artillery projectile ERFB (range of 30 km) and ERFB-BB (max range of 39 km) with appropriate combustible cartridge cases.

Crew training, operation and maintenance, as well as weapon basic operation performances (in-action / out of action time, elevation and traverse aiming speed, rate of fire etc) are performed in the similar way as for existing 130mm M-46 gun.
Under the conversion program certain gun sub-systems have been replaced or redesigned, such as:

• Replace of 130 mm barrel with new 155 mm / 45cal. barrel with new breach block assembly and new muzzle brake (twin-chamber, casted)
• Sealing system in the counter-recoil subsystem (including recoil brake and recuperator) have been redesigned
• Sealing system in the equilibrators have been redesigned
• New breach block design includes integration of self-sealing system operating with combustible powder charges
• New sighting system including the optical sight reticle and changing of sight mechanisms to NATO mils (1/6400),
• New pneumatic rammer for projectile and propellant charges (optionally)
• Integration of new FCS into converted gun battery/battalion structure, including weapon-integrated gun display

B) Breech ring, breech nut, front and back collar of the barrel and breech connecting parts have been retained.
Compared to the standard M-46, the up-gunned 155mm/45 the following advantages:

• 34% increase in range
• 260% increase in terminal effectiveness.
• 330% increase in lethal area.
• Compatibility with all standard 155mm NATO ammunition
• No crew training required.
• Small increase in total weight.
• The basic output performances are same as most current 155mm systems.
• Three to five times, less expensive than new similar systems.

In my layman opinion Pakistan should ASAP embark on this plan couples with AH-4 purchase if not by the end of this decade most of our guns would be outranged by enemy.

UPGUNNING OF 130mm M46 GUN TO 155mm/45 CALIBRE GUN | SDPR - Yugoimport

yugoimport.com

@Quwa @Bilal Khan (Quwa) I request you to prepare and forward proposal on this as you did in case of UAV's.
@Inception-06 @PanzerKiel @Signalian

I agree a single standarad 155 gun should be brought

For light operations get a chopper and light 155mm gun

I think we should more focus on Self propelled guns. May be trying getting used ones from europe/usa EDA

 

[Raja Porus]

CALCULATION. The word i used is "calculated", not intel. Artillery is all about calculations.

That's why they are called totay, because they are good memorising and calculations

 

[Signalian]

That's why they are called totay, because they are good memorising and calculations

If by totay you mean parrots, then that goes in many domains, even technical. By the way, 'totay' when written in roman english gives out a totally different meaning on first look

What kind of Calculation?

Trajectory, azimuths, height, range, impact point etc.

@PanzerKiel can you fill in.

 

[Sine Nomine]

Trajectory, azimuths, height, range, impact point etc.

@PanzerKiel can you fill in.

If i am not wrong these things come much later and are related to operation of guns, survey section etc while we are solely talking about gun ranges.

 

[PanzerKiel]

If by totay you mean parrots, then that goes in many domains, even technical. By the way, 'totay' when written in roman english gives out a totally different meaning on first look

Trajectory, azimuths, height, range, impact point etc.

@PanzerKiel can you fill in.

The battery command post (BCP) calculates the map bearing, range and angle of sight between the gun and the target and applies corrections to compensate for nonstandard conditions to produce predicted data. The predicted data is then placed onto the sights of the guns and to the projectile’s fuze.

The corrections applied to the map data are:
* Altitude Corrections.
* Correction of the Moment.
* Drift Corrections.
* Corrections for Rotation of the Earth.
* Non-Standard Projectile Correction.
* Muzzle Velocity Corrections.
* Distribution Corrections.
* Corrections to Fuze Settings.

Crest clearance / safety for own troops deployed on ground is also important, for which projectile's path is also calculated. The path of the projectile when it has left the muzzle is determined by the following factors:
* The muzzle velocity.
* The direction of the line of departure.
* Gravity.
* Resistance of the air.
* The weight and shape of the projectile.
* The spin of the projectile.
* The rotation of the earth.

 

[Zarvan]

The battery command post (BCP) calculates the map bearing, range and angle of sight between the gun and the target and applies corrections to compensate for nonstandard conditions to produce predicted data. The predicted data is then placed onto the sights of the guns and to the projectile’s fuze.

The corrections applied to the map data are:
* Altitude Corrections.
* Correction of the Moment.
* Drift Corrections.
* Corrections for Rotation of the Earth.
* Non-Standard Projectile Correction.
* Muzzle Velocity Corrections.
* Distribution Corrections.
* Corrections to Fuze Settings.

Crest clearance / safety for own troops deployed on ground is also important, for which projectile's path is also calculated. The path of the projectile when it has left the muzzle is determined by the following factors:
* The muzzle velocity.
* The direction of the line of departure.
* Gravity.
* Resistance of the air.
* The weight and shape of the projectile.
* The spin of the projectile.
* The rotation of the earth.

Sir we are doing good when it comes to self propelled artillery guns. We have M 109 in large numbers and we are most likely going for SH 15 and if we want more we have lots of options available. My worry is about towed artillery guns. SP are really good but in our LOC region still we need Towed Artillery Guns. Some of our guns are really old. We need new guns. I heard we tested AH 4 but were not fully satisfied. And in towed artillery guns there doesn't seem to have lot of options for us. So if you can please shed some light on it.

 

[PanzerKiel]

Sir we are doing good when it comes to self propelled artillery guns. We have M 109 in large numbers and we are most likely going for SH 15 and if we want more we have lots of options available. My worry is about towed artillery guns. SP are really good but in our LOC region still we need Towed Artillery Guns. Some of our guns are really old. We need new guns. I heard we tested AH 4 but were not fully satisfied. And in towed artillery guns there doesn't seem to have lot of options for us. So if you can please shed some light on it.

Speaking specifically regarding LOC....we have enough guns there, being old doesnt matter much, they fire accurate and the weight of the shell is also good.....range doesnt matter there because most of the enemy defences and static installations are within already our range and registered..... in the remaining the area is mostly civilian population which we do not target in any case.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

I agree a single standarad 155 gun should be brought

For light operations get a chopper and light 155mm gun

I think we should more focus on Self propelled guns. May be trying getting used ones from europe/usa EDA

IMO for helicopter usage, a modern 105 mm gun would be better. They're generally lighter, and a modern gun is very effective from an operational standpoint. E.g., the MKEK Boran 105 mm howitzer weighs 1,720 kg, which our AW139s can carry.

 

[PanzerKiel]

IMO for helicopter usage, a modern 105 mm gun would be better. They're generally lighter, and a modern gun is very effective from an operational standpoint. E.g., the MKEK Boran 105 mm howitzer weighs 1,720 kg, which our AW139s can carry.

Disassembling guns and transporting them via heli or transporting guns via heli while being slung underneath deep into enemy territory was something we did alot in Kargil conflict. The experience is there.

 

[Zarvan]

Disassembling guns and transporting them via heli or transporting guns via heli while being slung underneath deep into enemy territory was something we did alot in Kargil conflict. The experience is there.

New 105mm air transportable light towed howitzer from the Turkish Company MKE 10406163 | KADEX 2016 Official Online Show Daily News | Defence security military exhibition 2016 daily news category

We have some good options in 105 MM category

 

[Path-Finder]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1354071716935454721

https://twitter.com/x/status/1354072061422002176

 

[araz]

Disassembling guns and transporting them via heli or transporting guns via heli while being slung underneath deep into enemy territory was something we did alot in Kargil conflict. The experience is there.

Do you know what POF has done with regards to canon manufacturing? Do we/Did we have a programme or are we sleeping as usual. Help would be appreciated.
A

 

[PanzerKiel]

Do you know what POF has done with regards to canon manufacturing? Do we/Did we have a programme or are we sleeping as usual. Help would be appreciated.
A

We are not making any canons, barrels are being overhauled at base or regional workshops.

 

[Raja Porus]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1356529125914259458

 

[Signalian]

IMO for helicopter usage, a modern 105 mm gun would be better. They're generally lighter, and a modern gun is very effective from an operational standpoint. E.g., the MKEK Boran 105 mm howitzer weighs 1,720 kg, which our AW139s can carry.

If an offensive is going to take place then yes, but sitting at dug-in, defensive and stationary positions for decades, the comms and support lines are already being managed.