Pakistan's Artillery Upgrade Discussions

[farooqbhai007]

A-100s are well placed to tackle enemy , and more than enough.
Aside from Indian grads , they have 4 Pinaka Batteries/Regiments & 3 Smerch Regiments active , of these 3 Pinaka & 2 Smerch are based at Pakistani borders,

40 AD Smerch , Northen Punjab, India

41 AD, Southern Rajasthan, Full Regiment visible

all in all thats 12 x 3 = 36 Smerch launchers in active regiments, plus 6 in the Artillery training school.

For Pinaka we have 6 x 4 = 24 Pinaka launchers in active regiments plus unkown numbers in Training school.

 

[Sine Nomine]

Pakistan has got mixture of M-46 and Type 59-1 130mm field guns in service.According to various sources number of guns is inbetween 350 and 400.
It fires a shell ranges upto 27.5 km (unassisted) 38 km (assisted)
With advent of new 155mm guns,these guns are now outranged.
Since they are old and everyone is shifting to 155 mm guns,Many states around the Globe have programs in place for upgunning these guns to 155mm cal.

Bharat got almost 1000 guns from USSR and
is currently upgunning all of it's 130's to 155mm,there new gun fires a 155mm shell at ranges upto 39 Km and their 2027 Art Mod Plan calls for replacing all cals to 155mm.It seems like they would upgun all of their inventory.
Considering all this Pakistan should upgun all of 130's to 155mm cal either do it at HIT or through another foreign company.

Here are advantages which we would get from upgunning 130 to 155.

• Depending upon barrel L Gun range would increase with upgrade.
• Shell weight would increase damage.
• Ease of logistics and increase in no of Arty guns of 155 cal.
• It would save money which otherwise would go into new arty gun purchase.

In longer run a single cal means that;

• Reduction in the logistic trail of Army,single cal means one type of Ammo support.
• This would imply a higher operational preparedness and greater logistical efficiency.
• Simple logistics management systems achieved through inventory streamlining and standardisation will act as a force multiplier.
• In longer run we can design a single Arty piece of that cal and replace our all inventroy with it.

Here is everything which goes into this process of upgunning.
UPGUNNING OF 130mm M46 GUN TO 155mm/45 CALIBRE GUN

Converted gun is based on the Soviet 130mm M-46 gun, where the barrel has been replaced with new 155 mm with 45 caliber length. It is representing a modern, highly versatile and cost-effective solution of powerfull fire support weapon, boasting features like:

• combat weight of 7680 kg,
• field of action 50 degrees in azimuth and minus 2.5 Deg to 45 Deg in elevation,
• capable of firing all standard 155mm NATO ammunition including modern long range artillery projectile ERFB (range of 30 km) and ERFB-BB (max range of 39 km) with appropriate combustible cartridge cases.

Crew training, operation and maintenance, as well as weapon basic operation performances (in-action / out of action time, elevation and traverse aiming speed, rate of fire etc) are performed in the similar way as for existing 130mm M-46 gun.
Under the conversion program certain gun sub-systems have been replaced or redesigned, such as:

• Replace of 130 mm barrel with new 155 mm / 45cal. barrel with new breach block assembly and new muzzle brake (twin-chamber, casted)
• Sealing system in the counter-recoil subsystem (including recoil brake and recuperator) have been redesigned
• Sealing system in the equilibrators have been redesigned
• New breach block design includes integration of self-sealing system operating with combustible powder charges
• New sighting system including the optical sight reticle and changing of sight mechanisms to NATO mils (1/6400),
• New pneumatic rammer for projectile and propellant charges (optionally)
• Integration of new FCS into converted gun battery/battalion structure, including weapon-integrated gun display

B) Breech ring, breech nut, front and back collar of the barrel and breech connecting parts have been retained.
Compared to the standard M-46, the up-gunned 155mm/45 the following advantages:

• 34% increase in range
• 260% increase in terminal effectiveness.
• 330% increase in lethal area.
• Compatibility with all standard 155mm NATO ammunition
• No crew training required.
• Small increase in total weight.
• The basic output performances are same as most current 155mm systems.
• Three to five times, less expensive than new similar systems.

In my layman opinion Pakistan should ASAP embark on this plan couples with AH-4 purchase if not by the end of this decade most of our guns would be outranged by enemy.

UPGUNNING OF 130mm M46 GUN TO 155mm/45 CALIBRE GUN | SDPR - Yugoimport

yugoimport.com

@Quwa @Bilal Khan (Quwa) I request you to prepare and forward proposal on this as you did in case of UAV's.
@Inception-06 @PanzerKiel @Signalian

 

[Vapour]

A-100s are well placed to tackle enemy , and more than enough.
Aside from Indian grads , they have 4 Pinaka Batteries/Regiments & 3 Smerch Regiments active , of these 3 Pinaka & 2 Smerch are based at Pakistani borders,

40 AD Smerch , Northen Punjab, India
View attachment 710574

41 AD, Southern Rajasthan, Full Regiment visible
View attachment 710575
all in all thats 12 x 3 = 36 Smerch launchers in active regiments, plus 6 in the Artillery training school.

For Pinaka we have 6 x 4 = 24 Pinaka launchers in active regiments plus unkown numbers in Training school.

Does Pakistan have an equivalent to the BM Grads?

 

[farooqbhai007]

Does Pakistan have an equivalent to the BM Grads?

yea krl-122 with gids yarmook rockets with 45km range (compared to 40km indian grads ) and a new unkown 122mm system or maybe just a modernized krl-122 with digital fire control.

 

[Inception-06]

Pakistan has got mixture of M-46 and Type 59-1 130mm field guns in service.According to various sources number of guns is inbetween 350 and 400.
It fires a shell ranges upto 27.5 km (unassisted) 38 km (assisted)
With advent of new 155mm guns,these guns are now outranged.
Since they are old and everyone is shifting to 155 mm guns,Many states around the Globe have programs in place for upgunning these guns to 155mm cal.

Bharat got almost 1000 guns from USSR and
is currently upgunning all of it's 130's to 155mm,there new gun fires a 155mm shell at ranges upto 39 Km and their 2027 Art Mod Plan calls for replacing all cals to 155mm.It seems like they would upgun all of their inventory.
Considering all this Pakistan should upgun all of 130's to 155mm cal either do it at HIT or through another foreign company.

Here are advantages which we would get from upgunning 130 to 155.

• Depending upon barrel L Gun range would increase with upgrade.
• Shell weight would increase damage.
• Ease of logistics and increase in no of Arty guns of 155 cal.
• It would save money which otherwise would go into new arty gun purchase.

In longer run a single cal means that;

• Reduction in the logistic trail of Army,single cal means one type of Ammo support.
• This would imply a higher operational preparedness and greater logistical efficiency.
• Simple logistics management systems achieved through inventory streamlining and standardisation will act as a force multiplier.
• In longer run we can design a single Arty piece of that cal and replace our all inventroy with it.

Here is everything which goes into this process of upgunning.
UPGUNNING OF 130mm M46 GUN TO 155mm/45 CALIBRE GUN

Converted gun is based on the Soviet 130mm M-46 gun, where the barrel has been replaced with new 155 mm with 45 caliber length. It is representing a modern, highly versatile and cost-effective solution of powerfull fire support weapon, boasting features like:

• combat weight of 7680 kg,
• field of action 50 degrees in azimuth and minus 2.5 Deg to 45 Deg in elevation,
• capable of firing all standard 155mm NATO ammunition including modern long range artillery projectile ERFB (range of 30 km) and ERFB-BB (max range of 39 km) with appropriate combustible cartridge cases.

Crew training, operation and maintenance, as well as weapon basic operation performances (in-action / out of action time, elevation and traverse aiming speed, rate of fire etc) are performed in the similar way as for existing 130mm M-46 gun.
Under the conversion program certain gun sub-systems have been replaced or redesigned, such as:

• Replace of 130 mm barrel with new 155 mm / 45cal. barrel with new breach block assembly and new muzzle brake (twin-chamber, casted)
• Sealing system in the counter-recoil subsystem (including recoil brake and recuperator) have been redesigned
• Sealing system in the equilibrators have been redesigned
• New breach block design includes integration of self-sealing system operating with combustible powder charges
• New sighting system including the optical sight reticle and changing of sight mechanisms to NATO mils (1/6400),
• New pneumatic rammer for projectile and propellant charges (optionally)
• Integration of new FCS into converted gun battery/battalion structure, including weapon-integrated gun display

B) Breech ring, breech nut, front and back collar of the barrel and breech connecting parts have been retained.
Compared to the standard M-46, the up-gunned 155mm/45 the following advantages:

• 34% increase in range
• 260% increase in terminal effectiveness.
• 330% increase in lethal area.
• Compatibility with all standard 155mm NATO ammunition
• No crew training required.
• Small increase in total weight.
• The basic output performances are same as most current 155mm systems.
• Three to five times, less expensive than new similar systems.

In my layman opinion Pakistan should ASAP embark on this plan couples with AH-4 purchase if not by the end of this decade most of our guns would be outranged by enemy.

UPGUNNING OF 130mm M46 GUN TO 155mm/45 CALIBRE GUN | SDPR - Yugoimport

yugoimport.com

@Quwa @Bilal Khan (Quwa) I request you to prepare and forward proposal on this as you did in case of UAV's.
@Inception-06 @PanzerKiel @Signalian

I heard the Indian upgrade from 130mm to 155 was not successful, you have sources about successfully continuing of this program ?

 

[Sine Nomine]

I heard the Indian upgrade from 130mm to 155 was not successful, you have sources about successfully continuing of this program ?

There was upgunning contract between Bharat and Soltam in place in mid 2000, 180 pieces were upgraded under this project before it was terminated,that work was done in Bharat.Later around 2013 OFB restarted that program,in 2018 OFB won a Govt contract for upgunning of 300 M-46 pieces.It's known as OFB Sharang 155mm Arty uses a 45 cal barrel.

 

[Inception-06]

There was upgunning contract between Bharat and Soltam in place in mid 2000, 180 pieces were upgraded under this project before it was terminated,that work was done in Bharat.Later around 2013 OFB restarted that program,in 2018 OFB won a Govt contract for upgunning of 300 M-46 pieces.It's known as OFB Sharang 155mm Arty uses a 45 cal barrel.

Maybe we have produced too much ammunition for the different artillery calibres, and it would be not economical! Question is the price of the upgrade programme, what to do with old ammunition?

 

[Sine Nomine]

Maybe we have produced too much ammunition for the different artillery calibres, and it would be not economical! Question is the price of the upgrade programme, what to do with old ammunition?

More important question is, what would happen to a Battery if it is facing a Battery which is outgunning it by good margin?
I hope when one would consider this,upgunning would be an obvious ans or a new system.
Regarding price as per serbs,this upgrade would cost 5 times less than a new system and mind that we have already greater no of 155's in service as compared to 130's.
That ammo can be probably sold to another state.

 

[Inception-06]

More important question is, what would happen to a Battery if it is facing a Battery which is outgunning it by good margin?
I hope when one would consider this,upgunning would be an obvious ans or a new system.
Regarding price as per serbs,this upgrade would cost 5 times less than a new system and mind that we have already greater no of 155's in service as compared to 130's.
That ammo can be probably sold to another state.

I agree but the Generals wouldn’t. May be because there will never be again a full scale war without nuclear weapons, between two nuclear states. If we would successfully capture Kashmir, the indians would nuclear us, the same we would do. Big weapon purchases are just to keep balance, but not to conquer India or liberate Kashmir. I guess that’s reason why they don’t invest in a rifle or artillery replacement program.

 

[Sine Nomine]

I agree but the Generals wouldn’t. May be because there will never be again a full scale war without nuclear weapons, between two nuclear states. If we would successfully capture Kashmir, the indians would nuclear us, the same we would do. Big weapon purchases are just to keep balance, but not to conquer India or liberate Kashmir. I guess that’s reason why they don’t invest in a rifle or artillery replacement program.

I think that's Bluff,since a nuke for a nuke policy is among all nuclear powers of world,it means that no one would risk a whole country for few thousand km².
Pakistan has budget issues,lot of money is going into debt servicing and for keeping PSM,PIA and PR afloat.

 

[Signalian]

More important question is, what would happen to a Battery if it is facing a Battery which is outgunning it by good margin?

This is calculated before sending equipment into the deployment area. Then they are deployed in a manner so that they remain safe from CB fire of enemy. Mortars are easily transported over rough terrain and are used in good effect against enemy fire also. Range extending ammo can also be used.

 

[Sine Nomine]

This is calculated before sending equipment into the deployment area. Then they are deployed in a manner so that they remain safe from CB fire of enemy. Mortars are easily transported over rough terrain and are used in good effect against enemy fire also. Range extending ammo can also be used.

This solely depends upon intel a commander has in hand.
We are talking here in context of IA Arty Modernisation goal 2027,which calls for only 155mm as main cal for every use.Looks like M777's are going to be main weapon on LOC and LAC,while other new guns are going to be used in plains.
Extended ammo both RAP and BB,won't make 130 to fire beyond 37000 meters while a 155mm gun cal 45 can fire Extended Range Full Bore - Base Bleed (ERFB-BB) upto 39,000 m.M777 can fire upto 40 km using guided ammo.
If they proceed with this plan as it's drawn,we would be outgunned by 2027.

 

[Path-Finder]

I thought a conversion programme was taking place to convert 130mm to 155mm? or was that just talk?

 

[Signalian]

This solely depends upon intel a commander has in hand.

CALCULATION. The word i used is "calculated", not intel. Artillery is all about calculations.

 

[Sine Nomine]

CALCULATION. The word i used is "calculated", not intel. Artillery is all about calculations.

What kind of Calculation?