pakistan's and their reluctance to evolve with western culture.

[nvKyleBrown]

The US prides itself as a nation whose culture is based on Judeo Christian beliefs. Does it mean they are Israelites just because Jesus AS was one?

The culture is referred to as "Judeo-Christian".

. And yes, you can have any faith and still be a Pakistani.

As long as it doesn't involve Valentine's Day?

 

[libertycall]

Either way, you're not longer "Pakistani" - you've changed through the introduction of another culture (Islamic, or Arabic culture, which *are* very linked). Or rather, you great-great-great...-grandfathers did. Or were forced to, depending on who's history book you read.

Pakistan was created as a homeland for Muslims from the subcontinent.

As a Pashtun I can trace the family names of Pashtuns to Herodotus and further back in time to wars with the Assyrian empire. We're mentioned in some of the oldest texts in the world including the Hindu religious books.

Where's the evidence that there's a continuity between your family history and the history of Europe prior to the introduction of belief in a middle-eastern Asian 'god' called 'Jesus' to Europe?

Where's the evidence of a link between your history and that of the people who discovered the Americas?

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

this thread is made for continuation of discussion from Pakistan bans Valentine's Day celebrations in Islamabad?
my last post in that thread was
believe me i would be more then happy to see my people to become more like them in every field and behavior.but let me remind you those thing which were taboos few years ago are norms of today like voting rights of women racial discrimination and slavery. islam allow you to own slave but then why every Islamic country has abolished it.we were allowed to own slave with few condition met then why we abandon that practice let me tell you why because it was out dated practice with no place in today's society.same things happen with racial laws and women rights.world is changing and we need to change with it.i am not saying that we should blindly follow western or any other culture.but we should give them a chance to merge with ours to make a more tolerating and flexible Pakistan because if we don't world will move forward an we will be left behind and alone.look at turkey uae Malaysia they didn't lost their culture but simply merged it with international one and they are far more accepted then we are.

Source: Pakistan bans Valentine's Day celebrations in Islamabad? | Page 6
@Ammara Chaudhry

Culture and societies are not 'static' they continue to evolve over time - Pakistan's culture today is a hodgepodge of influences from around the region and across the globe.

All cultures and societies will adopt influences from elsewhere that they 'like' and continue to evolve. No one is forcing people to celebrate X event or follow Y fashion sense - people do so because it appeals to them. The people who bring up arguments against cultural evolution or the adoption of 'foreign' cultural practices can only be described as regressive and anti-change.

While the phrase and 'event' of Valentines Day is an American creation, the values of love and expressing that love (for a significant other or relative or friend) that this event promotes are universal.

 

[Apprentice]

Yes but Pakistan was made in the name of Islam, therefore it ought to promote Islamic values.

Our constitution makes provisions to this effect. All laws contrary to Islam ought to be repealed.

 

[Adecypher]

I am quite moderate but STILL it is hard for me to find ANYTHING wrong this person is saying w.r.t VD

 

[Apprentice]

I am quite moderate but STILL it is hard for me to find ANYTHING wrong this person is saying w.r.t VD

This guy in the vdeo is an arrogant and ignorant wahhabi who has been refuted and rejected by all Islamic scholars. The man in the video is not even a properly qualified Islamic scholar.

You could have found an actual Islamic scholar's condemnation of Valentine's day and posted that here instead of this hate preacher.

 

[Hell hound]

Culture and societies are not 'static' they continue to evolve over time - Pakistan's culture today is a hodgepodge of influences from around the region and across the globe.

All cultures and societies will adopt influences from elsewhere that they 'like' and continue to evolve. No one is forcing people to celebrate X event or follow Y fashion sense - people do so because it appeals to them. The people who bring up arguments against cultural evolution or the adoption of 'foreign' cultural practices can only be described as regressive and anti-change.

While the phrase and 'event' of Valentines Day is an American creation, the values of love and expressing that love (for a significant other or relative or friend) that this event promotes are universal.

mate i can't thank this post enough.you just spoke my mind.simple policy of live and let live.do what you want let other do what they want.don't be a phoopho

 

[nvKyleBrown]

Pakistan was created as a homeland for Muslims from the subcontinent.

As a Pashtun I can trace the family names of Pashtuns to Herodotus and further back in time to wars with the Assyrian empire. We're mentioned in some of the oldest texts in the world including the Hindu religious books.

Where's the evidence that there's a continuity between your family history and the history of Europe prior to the introduction of belief in a middle-eastern Asian 'god' called 'Jesus' to Europe?

Where's the evidence of a link between your history and that of the people who discovered the Americas?

Interesting. I neither know nor care about my family history - well, I know that I'm "mostly German", but beyond that, it really doesn't matter. I suppose I am "linked" to Europe by white skin. But I don't care, and don't consider myself "European" in any sense. As a mostly German decended person, I am not particularly related to either the American Indians who first moved here, the Norsemen who first "discovered" the continent, nor to the Italian who led the Spanish expedition that later "discovered" and published their findings of the New World.

But, how does being related to someone matter??

You've inadvertently highlighted a huge difference between the West (particularly the US) and non-Western cultures - the West is fundamentally forward looking. The past is gone, and any glories from it belong to the people who lived then. We should look to the future and celebrate what *we* can do, rather than what *someone else* has done.

And generally, the past wasn't all that great anyhow. Indeed, would you say Pakistan a better or worse place to live than 100 years ago? The US is definitely better. And the further back you go, the worse it gets. I would maintain Pakistan is the same.

Yet Pakistan today, for all the "proud" history of Pashtuns such as yourself, still can't keep the electricity on. Maybe you need to think less about the names of your ancestors, and more about how to build power plants and keep them running in the future. And maybe Valentine's Day is really a tiny insignificant matter that you should not fuss about at all.

 

[libertycall]

Interesting. I neither know nor care about my family history - well, I know that I'm "mostly German", but beyond that, it really doesn't matter. I suppose I am "linked" to Europe by white skin. But I don't care, and don't consider myself "European" in any sense. As a mostly German decended person, I am not particularly related to either the American Indians who first moved here, the Norsemen who first "discovered" the continent, nor to the Italian who led the Spanish expedition that later "discovered" and published their findings of the New World.

But, how does being related to someone matter??

You've inadvertently highlighted a huge difference between the West (particularly the US) and non-Western cultures - the West is fundamentally forward looking. The past is gone, and any glories from it belong to the people who lived then. We should look to the future and celebrate what *we* can do, rather than what *someone else* has done.

And generally, the past wasn't all that great anyhow. Indeed, would you say Pakistan a better or worse place to live than 100 years ago? The US is definitely better. And the further back you go, the worse it gets. I would maintain Pakistan is the same.

Yet Pakistan today, for all the "proud" history of Pashtuns such as yourself, still can't keep the electricity on. Maybe you need to think less about the names of your ancestors, and more about how to build power plants and keep them running in the future. And maybe Valentine's Day is really a tiny insignificant matter that you should not fuss about at all.

That's quite some verbal and reasoning gymnastics that you've engaged in. The argument began when you accused Pakistanis of not being really Pakistani because they had no cultural continuity with the land of Pakistan.

After I've demonstrated to you that I know far more about my family history and can trace it back much further than someone of European origin such as yourself; you now claim that you were never really interested in cultural continuity in the first place. That reminds me of Aesop's fable of the fox who being unable to reach the grapes, claimed that he never wanted them anyway

The Norsemen didn't 'discover' the Americas. You don't 'discover' something by arriving 15,000 years later And you make this claim too after admitting that a group of Asians had already settled it. You know what else? The Asian descendants in the Americas and the Asians on the Asian continent itself were trading long before Columbus lost his way

Bering Strait Artifacts Reveal Trade Between Asia And The New World Centuries Before Columbus : SCIENCE : Tech Times

If you're so 'forward looking' how is it that despite living in the Americas you believe you are 'Western'? The Americas are a land discovered, made habitable, and settled by an Asian people. Why do you keep looking back towards Europe when the Americas have just as much if not greater links with Asia and Africa? Shall I quote what the Greeks and Romans and the alleged founders of your 'Western' culture said about your German ancestors as compared to how they considered mine?? Because they sure as hell regarded us as civilized and you as slaves fit only for the mines and the pit. 'Western' my foot!

The Americas must have been a hell of a lot better than Europe considering how many white Europeans fled there, so the notion that the Americas became good because of your ancestors holds as much water as the leaky boats you landed in and immediately begged the Asian descended peoples of the Americas to pretty please supply you with food....

Haha...son, my ancestors taught yours to wear trousers, produce metal tools, grow wheat, and we invented the language of whose original form you've bastardized into 'german'. Basically we dragged you out of the Stone Age when the only thing you looked forward to was eating each other. And we know exactly which part of Asia you left before you began thinking you were better than us and your claims about being 'civilized'.

Yes, we saw how 'civilized' when you were killing each other like flies in the trenches, shoving millions of your minorities into the gas chambers, torturing and experimenting on others, and that's leaving aside the millions of each other that you raped. I'd have much greater respect for your claims of moral superiority if you weren't living on a land stolen from the people who fed white Europeans, and built with the labor of tens of millions of Africans. Your superiority. HA!

Our accomplishments are based on use of our own resources. Skills which we passed on to the rest of the world. Yours are based on the exploitation of others with the vilest treachery after pretending to be their friends e.g. the Native Americans. I'll leave aside how all you brave white European migrants in the Americas use Pashtuns to fight a war against the Russians. Just remember 'duck and cover' Johnny, and if you can't do that kiss the *** of those more powerful than you.

As for power plants, in the 1970's if the Saudi Arabs hadn't agreed to link gold to oil, the 'west' would have lost the Cold War and you'd be speaking Russian or Chinese. Your whole existence it seems is based on begging and stealing others resources and labor.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Yes but Pakistan was made in the name of Islam, therefore it ought to promote Islamic values.

Our constitution makes provisions to this effect. All laws contrary to Islam ought to be repealed.

So Islam doesn't promote love or the expression of love for significant others or friends or family?

 

[Hell hound]

@AgNoStiC MuSliM bro these guys don't know that Pakistan will not even survive its first year after 100% implementation of Islamic law.reason our banking system. under Islamic law interest is strictly prohibited so you can't issue nor receive loans from anyone on interest and we know we can't (No country can) survive without debt in present day.how will we cover our budget deficit and what will happen to bounds issued to our public and all other previous loans(imf, world bank etc). will we it pay back or default on them (as according to Islam you can't deal in interest) and if we default on them we will have to declare bankruptcy .lets suppose we some how manages to survive that bankruptcy who will invest in a country which don't operate on modren banking system? no one.so what will happen then our currency will have no value we won't be able to import or export any thing no jobs no electricity because of lack of fuel imports in short total anarchy.
so mate in today's world you can't apply 100% Islamic law that the truth and you can either accept it or deny it.its up to you @Apprentice

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

@AgNoStiC MuSliM bro these guys don't know that Pakistan will not even survive its first year after 100% implementation of Islamic law.reason our banking system. under Islamic law interest is strictly prohibited so you can't issue nor receive loans from anyone on interest and we know we can't (No country can) survive without debt in present day.how will we cover our budget deficit and what will happen to bounds issued to our public and all other previous loans(imf, world bank etc). will we it pay back or default on them (as according to Islam you can't deal in interest) and if we default on them we will have to declare bankruptcy .lets suppose we some how manages to survive that bankruptcy who will invest in a country which don't operate on modren banking system? no one.so what will happen then our currency will have no value we won't be able to import or export any thing no jobs no electricity because of lack of fuel imports in short total anarchy.
so mate in today's world you can't apply 100% Islamic law that the truth and you can either accept it or deny it.its up to you @Apprentice

From what I understand, there is 'interest' charged under Islamic Banking as well, though it isn't called that. The lender is taking a risk in providing loans/credit with the intent of making a profit so of course it's going to charge fees/interest.

The main distinction, as I understand it, is that the interests rates in Islamic banking might not fluctuate over time, but this can be done under conventional banking as well by sticking to loan/credit instruments that offer fixed interest rates.

 

[Hell hound]

From what I understand, there is 'interest' charged under Islamic Banking as well, though it isn't called that. The lender is taking a risk in providing loans/credit with the intent of making a profit so of course it's going to charge fees/interest.

The main distinction, as I understand it, is that the interests rates in Islamic banking might not fluctuate over time, but this can be done under conventional banking as well by sticking to loan/credit instruments that offer fixed interest rates.

bro difference between Islamic and conventional banking and is not that of fix rate of return or variable rate of return but it is that of interest and profit sharing percentage.in Islam interest is not allowed while profit sharing is allowed so if someone want to give you a loan for a project he can't be done with it by just giving you the money and then collecting interest on it he has to share risk and rewards of that particular project with you and he will be treated as your partner meaning he will have voting right in your day to day operations (this right is normally not given under conventional banking agreement).if project made a profit he will get his share under partnership agreement not under any fixed percentage and investment is making lose then he will bare the with same percentage as of his profit sharing one and he will not have any preferential right to receive money before other stakeholder in case of solvency as normally banks have. all of these condition have to be met to make money of your investment in islam and for normal banks its to much of a risk so they will not invest in this way.there are very few banks that are operating on true principle of Islamic banking while most of the banks are just sugar coating the normal baking system with arabic names.
in short entities like world bank or imf will never ever give you loan on these terms.so no country can be 100% Islamic in this world

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

bro difference between Islamic and conventional banking and is not that of fix rate of return or variable rate of return but it is that of interest and profit sharing percentage.in Islam interest is not allowed while profit sharing is allowed so if someone want to give you a loan for a project he can't be done with it by just giving you the money and then collecting interest on it he has to share risk and rewards of that particular project with you and he will be treated as your partner meaning he will have voting right in your day to day operations (this right is normally not given under conventional banking agreement).if project made a profit he will get his share under partnership agreement not under any fixed percentage and investment is making lose then he will bare the with same percentage as of his profit sharing one and he will not have any preferential right to receive money before other stakeholder in case of solvency as normally banks have. all of these condition have to be met to make money of your investment in islam and for normal banks its to much of a risk so they will not invest in this way.there are very few banks that are operating on true principle of Islamic banking while most of the banks are just sugar coating the normal baking system with arabic names.
in short entities like world bank or imf will never ever give you loan on these terms.so no country can be 100% Islamic in this world

That would seem to work well for business loans, but how does Islamic Banking address borrowing by governments or welfare organizations for public sector projects like roads, hospitals, schools etc that do not offer 'profit returns'?

 

[ghazi52]

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DHA , Karachi

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