Pakistan's Airborne Early Warning and Control Aircrafts

[Arsalan]

yes indeed, Paksaheen you have goy it right bro. it was stated by vaarious sources that the Erieye radar that we are getting have been extensively modified according to PAF requirment. among these modifications was the upgradation of radar to give it a full 360 degree coverage and extra sensors were als integrated. SAAB is also looking forward to explore further export markets for Erieye SAAB-2000!
so it can be concluede that the system that we will be getting is a real solid step in strengthening our air space from any miss adventure!

regards!

 

[M_Saint]

I do hope this is not in your wish list, BTW.

If that were in my wish list then I wouldn't give up the 'Global Moderator ship' of a Bangladeshi forum on principled ground, where rational support of PAK's stance earned me a name called 'RAZAKAR' i.e. Traitor to Bangladeshi emotionals. Furthermore, you probably noticed in my posts that I divulged 'PAK's existencial secret' by taking personal risk, thanks

 

[PakShaheen79]

If that were in my wish list then I wouldn't give up the 'Global Moderator ship' of a Bangladeshi forum on principled ground, where rational support of PAK's stance earned me a name called 'RAZAKAR' i.e. Traitor to Bangladeshi emotionals. Furthermore, you probably noticed in my posts that I divulged 'PAK's existencial secret' by taking personal risk, thanks

Thanks for clearing it up. Nice to know you.

 

[sancho]

Abnother article about new gen system on SAAB-2000

That's what I meant, the radar system in improved from the old Saab 340 AWACS (450Km range now, instead of 350Km, radar arrays provides detection now in an area of 150° instead of 120° before), so the Saab 2000 Erieye is not only a new plattform, but aswell a new generation of the Erieye system. But the same capabilities are also known for Embraer Erieye!

The EMB 145 AEW&C performs these tasks with excellent results. With an instrumented range of 450 km, the AEW radar will detect and track targets long before they may become a threat.

Embraer Defense Systems

So hat is not a new capability that PAFs Erieye will get compared to the Embraer Erieye of Brazil, Greek, or Mexico.

Again I am not denying that your Erieye is not more improved, I just want to know what will be new and how it will be achieved.

 

[sancho]

@ arsalanaslam123

As you still seems to missunderstand why I have doubts about the 360° radar coverage of Erieye let me try to explain it in a different way.

The Dassault Rafale in the latest version uses the RBE 2 AA AESA radar. This radar is in the nose, pointed to the front and offers detection and tracking in an area of 120°. It is able to detect fighters at distances of 75 nm/138,9 KM, the tracking range is 60nm / 111,12Km. It is able to track 40 targets at the same time and engage 8 of them. So far about the radar capabilities, but the Rafale offers more!
It also has the Spectra EWS, which is an integrated self-defense suite (or Electronic Counter Measure) that combines several sensors to detect and warn about hostile radars, missiles, and lasers. And here comes the most interesting point, it offers 360° coverage!
Other features are:

passive, all-weather reliable, long-range detection, identification and geographical location of threats in the infrared, electromagnectic and electro-optical ranges. It uses short response times and cutting-edge defensive measures based on a combination of jamming, decoying and evasive maneuvers and technologies, such as Digital Radio Frequency Memory (DRFM) for signal processing...
The angular localization performance of Spectra makes it possible to precisely discover ground threats and to target them for immediate destruction with precision-guided munitions. In this totally passive mode, Spectra is also used as a general awareness and intelligence reporting system.

Avionics Magazine :: Serious Squall


Let me point out the main points of Rafale and Erieye again:

Radar system performance Rafale:
- active electronically scanned array radar
- 138,9 Km range
- can detect and track air and ground targets in an area of 120° to the front
- uses phased array antennas for IFF


Radar system performance Erieye:

• Active Phased Array Pulse Doppler multi-mode radar
• 450 km range and above 20 km (65,000 ft) altitude coverage
• Effective surveillance area of 500,000 sq km
• Capable of combined air and sea surveillance
• Automatic tracking of priority air targets
• Identification Friend or Foe (IFF) system

Saab - Products A-Z

- detection and tracking to an area of 150° to both sides


EWS/ECM performance Rafale:
- 360° coverage
- Radar, missile and laser warning
- engaging by jaming, or using chaff and flares


ESM system performance Erieye:

• 360º azimuth coverage
• High sensitivity
• Wide band
• High accuracy
• Radar warning
• SPS control/management
• Radar Warning Receiver (RWR), chaff and flares
• SPS also features Missile Approach Warning
(MAW), Laser Warning System (LWS) and
optional ESM and Integrated Defensive Aids Suite
(IDAS) with selection of low/medium/high bands

As you can see in both cases the radar don't provide 360° coverage, it only provides coverage in the area where the radar arrays are.
But 360° coverage is available in both cases for ESM, or ECM which is pretty much the same (detecting and engaging radar, missiles and laser threats), but has nothing to do with the performance of the radar!

As I pointed out earlier, if PAF's new Erieye really is more improved that the Greek/Brazil Erieye system and achieves 360° radar coverage, there must be more radar arrays (like the Etiam Phalcon, or the Boeing Wedgetail), or something else that is new. But the latest pics that were posted here, don't show any changes on the airframe that could hint to such capabilities.
That's why I have some doubt about it so far and asks for other explainations, how that could be achieved.

 

[Arsalan]

well sancho brother, i got your PM. i really appreciate your effort to approach a member (which in this case was me) to clear things.
thanks,,
i never meant to put the blame on you that you are being biased while commenting on the OAF new procurement of SAAB-2000 Erieye syste, all i did was to point you to the fact that you were taking parts of information to support your claim about CM detection range from the same brousher from which you were not willing to accept the 360 degree coverage.
as far as tell you how this is possible, i have already admitted my inability to do so as i am not professional in this stuff. all i can present are sources thatn claim it to be like this,,
moreover i hope you also dont hope to see any such information on internet that how did they acheive it. i am satisfied from the claim made by many sources about the 360 degree coverage angel do not have enough knowledge to say whether it is only for ECM or they have also acheived it with the radar.
i know it sounds a bit impossible in the light of discussion and technical information about its working posted by you and gambit but then, who would have imagined a plane flying in air and not be detected by latest of radars a few years back, now we have F22 and F35!! i mean i may have be done, how,, i am sorry for having no answer!!

anyway bro thanks for your response and keep up with the good work, i guess we can find many other topics which we can debate on!!

thanks,
regards!

 

[PakShaheen79]

As i have said it before keeping Indo-Pak border topography it is not necessary for Erieye to have complete 360 degree coverage. Still objective of looking deep into Indian territory can be achieved.

still doing so, Its EW suite can detect any ECM/ECCM activities in 360 degree that is sufficient for its on defense and any jamming attempt made by hostile platform on land or in air.

Radar coverage of Pakistani model is still a mystery at best.

 

[Arsalan]

yes,,
i second that PakSaheen!
specially the mystery part!!
well as far as my understanding of the subject is concerned, even the 150 degree coverage will do the job as the plane have to fly along the border which is a pretty straight one and stil keep an eye on activities across the border. perhaps Gambit can shed some light on it!

regards!

 

[BoggedDown]

Even if we agree for shake of discussion that EriEye one side array has tracking capabilities of 150 degrees. But ESM has 360 degree detection capabilities. So after the early detection of boggies at 12 or 6 O' clock by ESM, the plane can make a small correction of its course so the array T/R modules can focus for tracking them. At most the plan need a turn of 15 degrees left or right for tracking boggies at front or back. Also if you see Pak-India border it is not a straight line, so careful plan of flight path in zig zag shape or arc shape along the border will minimise any dark spots if any.

 

[Haanzo]

Even if we agree for shake of discussion that EriEye one side array has tracking capabilities of 150 degrees. But ESM has 360 degree detection capabilities. So after the early detection of boggies at 12 or 6 O' clock by ESM, the plane can make a small correction of its course so the array T/R modules can focus for tracking them. At most the plan need a turn of 15 degrees left or right for tracking boggies at front or back. Also if you see Pak-India border it is not a straight line, so careful plan of flight path in zig zag shape or arc shape along the border will minimise any dark spots if any.

atlast someone is speaking logic ---mate you are absolutely spot on in your analysis

---------- Post added at 04:14 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:14 AM ----------

Even if we agree for shake of discussion that EriEye one side array has tracking capabilities of 150 degrees. But ESM has 360 degree detection capabilities. So after the early detection of boggies at 12 or 6 O' clock by ESM, the plane can make a small correction of its course so the array T/R modules can focus for tracking them. At most the plan need a turn of 15 degrees left or right for tracking boggies at front or back. Also if you see Pak-India border it is not a straight line, so careful plan of flight path in zig zag shape or arc shape along the border will minimise any dark spots if any.

atlast someone is speaking logic ---mate you are absolutely spot on in your analysis

 

[sancho]

As i have said it before keeping Indo-Pak border topography it is not necessary for Erieye to have complete 360 degree coverage. Still objective of looking deep into Indian territory can be achieved.

still doing so, Its EW suite can detect any ECM/ECCM activities in 360 degree that is sufficient for its on defense and any jamming attempt made by hostile platform on land or in air.

Radar coverage of Pakistani model is still a mystery at best.

That's right, even with 300° coverage it will be a clear improvement for PAF, no doubt about that.

Even if we agree for shake of discussion that EriEye one side array has tracking capabilities of 150 degrees. But ESM has 360 degree detection capabilities. So after the early detection of boggies at 12 or 6 O' clock by ESM, the plane can make a small correction of its course so the array T/R modules can focus for tracking them. At most the plan need a turn of 15 degrees left or right for tracking boggies at front or back. Also if you see Pak-India border it is not a straight line, so careful plan of flight path in zig zag shape or arc shape along the border will minimise any dark spots if any.

Would't it be more a late detection? I don't expect the ESM will detect fighters in ranges like the real radar can, so from 12, or 6 a fighter might come much closer before the ESM will detect it. But as you said you can counter that with zig zag routes, or as I showed with the pic of Greek Erieye, by overlapping the routes of 2 Awacs aircrafts.

 

[kursed]

Actually ESM (SIGINT) can pick up a fighter before the radar can.

 

[gambit]

That's right, even with 300° coverage it will be a clear improvement for PAF, no doubt about that.

Would't it be more a late detection? I don't expect the ESM will detect fighters in ranges like the real radar can, so from 12, or 6 a fighter might come much closer before the ESM will detect it. But as you said you can counter that with zig zag routes, or as I showed with the pic of Greek Erieye, by overlapping the routes of 2 Awacs aircrafts.

Actually ESM (SIGINT) can pick up a fighter before the radar can.

Incorrect...Radar Warning Receiver (RWR) works only when there are transmissions in the area AND only if those transmissions are within the detection capabilities of the RWR system, meaning if the enemy's radar transmsison freqs are outside of the receiver's capabilities, it will not 'detect' anything. That said...It is very rare that any fighter's radar freqs are outside of the receiver's capabilities. Very very rare. You would have to have a gross mismatch like Korean War vintage versus Desert Storm equipments.

That leave only transmission power, meaning it is possible for a fighter's radar to have a longer reach than the AWACS' own radar, but this is so remote it borders on the absurd since radar effective distance is possible from antenna size. Larger antenna equals to longer effective detection distance and an AWACS usually have antennas that are several times larger than a fighter's. So an AWACS's active radar operation will detect a fighter, in terms of distance, further away than if the AWACS aircraft rely on passive detection alone.

Try to imagine the AWACS in active operation with a reach of 400km, for example. Now imagine a fighter whose radar can only reach 200km. Now imagine the AWACS flying in passive detection only. That mean instead of detecting the hostile fighter at around 350-400km, the AWACS in passive detection mode must wait until the fighter's radar pulses impact its antenna at 200km distance or less. That is not good. Your threat is half way to you, in a manner of speaking, in passive instead of active detection.

 

[Arsalan]

That's right, even with 300° coverage it will be a clear improvement for PAF, no doubt about that.

Would't it be more a late detection? I don't expect the ESM will detect fighters in ranges like the real radar can, so from 12, or 6 a fighter might come much closer before the ESM will detect it. But as you said you can counter that with zig zag routes, or as I showed with the pic of Greek Erieye, by overlapping the routes of 2 Awacs aircrafts.

yes, the ECM wont be detecting the planes at such a large distance but still as stated earlier, if for sake of healthy discussion, we do agree that the radar coverage will be of 150 degree, still the geographic characteristics of Pak-India border can still be covered with this 150 degree amgle. speciall keeping in mind that there will be some 8 systems to do this job,,

regards!

 

[PakShaheen79]

This also leads to another idea... that in peace time it will be a targeted surveillance using Erieye.